Boom. That's it, right there. Never heard a better analogy for that. I am proud of my mom's cooking, but a fancy restaurant, I am not so proud of.
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performance knives
- Thread starter noob93
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Hi. When reading your post, my attention was caught by the key word performance. My reasoning here all revolves around this.
I can only take my case and speak strictly for myself. I use my knives (mostly folders) in different EDC scenarios. I prepare food (I generally do my own lunch in the canteen) when at the branch head office; I cut various packaging materials (cardboards, straps, stretch and shrink foils, plastic bags, twines and cordages, etc.) when out in warehouses or production lines at suppliers; I do some cutting, minor scraping (and the occasionally prying
) work when busy in the small maintenance tasks in my house; I work with wood (cutting, whittling, carving, playing around, etc.), various cordages and food prep when out hiking/camping during week-ends 
. I can safely affirm I make an average of 50 cuts/day on these mentioned various media.Whats my meaning of performance? I want a knife (I have a weekly rotation) which is sharp, handy, easy, comfortable, safe and which can deliver the expected results for my own set target price. Since my knives are tool, they need maintenance (cleaning, sharpening, etc.) and I also consider my skills, my time and the tools I have/need for that, when deciding what to get.
Aesthetics and look doesnt belong in the performance box for me. If I can cut proficiently with something I consider nice or beautiful, thats adding on satisfaction, it's a plus, but its a different thing.
Given these pre-conditions of mine, I have - up to day - not found any real poor/subpar performance issue in any of the production knives I own so far (besides some obtuse or not so sharp factory edge). On the other hand, having handled a few of fixed blades customs knives, I can say I havent found any real outstanding performances in those I have handled and tried out, compared to the production ones I own.
Its a fact that, specially nowadays, manufacturers display industrial equipment and applied technologies which a few makers can easily reproduce in small scale (most of the so called mid-tech knives, in fact, outsource some of these processes precisely at manufacturers facilities). I feel I have still a plethora of good to great production knives which can fulfill my needs and wants at a price I can afford (always considering that my knives are tools which are subject to wear and tear, can get lost, damaged, etc.). Also, as a humble knives hobbyist, I am no ashamed in stating I am not able to tell when using my knives the way I do the differences between one steel and another
. I can cut perfectly with a 440 C and with a S30V or a D2 the same way. No way I can practically tell if the same steel has been hardened 58 or 62. I have chipped both actually ! I can instead perceive the differences in blade geometry, comfort of handles, easiness/difficulty of sharpening and I have learned, along the way, what works best for me.Sure it is different for people who compete in blades sports of sorts or for those who perform hundreds of manual cuts per day! Their definition of performance is different! Half seriously, if I see people in factories spending such an amount of time in manual cutting of whatever, I politely suggest an efficiency project, either to automatize the operation or change the process design/flow. Sure enough I have pissed some knives enthusiast
!So I really think it boils down to your definition of performance. What does performance mean for you exactly? What you need (and many times just like
) likely dictates the choice. Last but not least, I think custom per se doesnt mean superior in any way. A lot of poorly executed and performing custom knives exist and, from my own little experience, its way easier to implement process control on an industrial process in a big production plant rather that enforcing it in a small workshop.
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A WELL MADE custom knife wil (as a general rule) blow a well made custom knife out of the water.
Want another example from Ankerson's tests?
Consider a knife I sent to him to have him give the steel a try. I sent him a small knife in Niolox steel te try out.
Niolox being a mid range stainless, that's very corrosion resistant, has fine grain and is fairly tough.
Ankerson Tested it and it ranked up to or around the same performance of knives with higher hardness, and more expensive steel.
This is not because I'm so amazing, or Niolox is so amazing. But simply because I can take risks in grinding that a production company will NEVER TAKE on a production blade.
If I mess up, I mess up 1 blade.
If a production company messes up they mess up a whole batch. Can you imagine the cost of losing a couple of thousand M390 blades?
A well made custom will beat a well made production knife every time. Custom makers can push their grinds, heat treats and finishing work further and harder than most production companies will on blade. Just because the risk is too great.
And so I echo what someone else already said in this thread.....
If your production knives outshine your custom knives....you've been buying the wrong custom knives.
Want another example from Ankerson's tests?
Consider a knife I sent to him to have him give the steel a try. I sent him a small knife in Niolox steel te try out.
Niolox being a mid range stainless, that's very corrosion resistant, has fine grain and is fairly tough.
Ankerson Tested it and it ranked up to or around the same performance of knives with higher hardness, and more expensive steel.
This is not because I'm so amazing, or Niolox is so amazing. But simply because I can take risks in grinding that a production company will NEVER TAKE on a production blade.
If I mess up, I mess up 1 blade.
If a production company messes up they mess up a whole batch. Can you imagine the cost of losing a couple of thousand M390 blades?
A well made custom will beat a well made production knife every time. Custom makers can push their grinds, heat treats and finishing work further and harder than most production companies will on blade. Just because the risk is too great.
And so I echo what someone else already said in this thread.....
If your production knives outshine your custom knives....you've been buying the wrong custom knives.
Rope cutting tests and chopping contests are to knives as drag races, hill climbs and truck pulls are to car, motorcycle and truck performance. They're loud and exciting but ultimately have no bearing on actual performance in real world applications. Neither rope cutting tests nor chopping contests tell us anything meaningful about how to design a good bushcraft knife or a good hunting knife.
Fans of such tests will immediately stamp their feet and proclaim, "These tests are quantitative, measurable and repeatable" and the proper engineering response to that is "So what?"
Quantifiable methods only matter if you're interested in things that are quantifiable. Overall hunting knife or bushcraft knife performance is not realistically reducible to quantification any more that car, motorcycle or truck performance can be.
Cars, motorcycles and trucks need to be understood in side by side QUALITATIVE reviews done in settings closest to their intended uses. Want a truck for the job site? Results from a truck pull (won by a custom truck, no doubt) won't help you. You need to compare trucks on job site.
People should study or work in marketing. There is a modern myth that all things can be quantified and the performance matches cost. It's a deeply held belief and savy marketers exploit this to sell stuff at high margins so people can lay their heads on their pillows at night convinced that they own "the best".
If you're spending more than $50 to $100 on a knife, you're being sucked in and buying bling for bragging rights, IMO.
Fans of such tests will immediately stamp their feet and proclaim, "These tests are quantitative, measurable and repeatable" and the proper engineering response to that is "So what?"
Quantifiable methods only matter if you're interested in things that are quantifiable. Overall hunting knife or bushcraft knife performance is not realistically reducible to quantification any more that car, motorcycle or truck performance can be.
Cars, motorcycles and trucks need to be understood in side by side QUALITATIVE reviews done in settings closest to their intended uses. Want a truck for the job site? Results from a truck pull (won by a custom truck, no doubt) won't help you. You need to compare trucks on job site.
People should study or work in marketing. There is a modern myth that all things can be quantified and the performance matches cost. It's a deeply held belief and savy marketers exploit this to sell stuff at high margins so people can lay their heads on their pillows at night convinced that they own "the best".
If you're spending more than $50 to $100 on a knife, you're being sucked in and buying bling for bragging rights, IMO.
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Quantative testing isn't real world testing. You're right about that.
But it IS the only way you can actually compare things.
Will a good production knife do the same real world tasks well? Ofcourse it will!
Will the well made custom knife do it even better? Probably.
But you can't compare if you don't let them do the same (as much as possible) things.
And your dragrace/truckpuill performance comparison falls on it's face a little. Because any vehicle that wins the dragrace will still pull away harder at the trafficlight. A vehicle that wins an economy race (longest distance on limited gas) will still be the most economical and the truck that can pull the most weight will still be able to pull the most weight in a normal situation.
What you're looking for in general though is the vehicle (or knife) that does those things that YOU do the best.
Quantitative comparisons don't mean everything. But they do mean something.
And while a qualitative test is easily done on a single knife.....doing them on multiple knives and still being able to do a proper objective comparison is extremely difficult.
So I see your point. But just because it's not 100% applicable doesn't mean it doesn't have any uses.
Once again...if a handmade knife didn't work better than it's production counterpart....then you bought the wrong handmade/custom knife.
But it IS the only way you can actually compare things.
Will a good production knife do the same real world tasks well? Ofcourse it will!
Will the well made custom knife do it even better? Probably.
But you can't compare if you don't let them do the same (as much as possible) things.
And your dragrace/truckpuill performance comparison falls on it's face a little. Because any vehicle that wins the dragrace will still pull away harder at the trafficlight. A vehicle that wins an economy race (longest distance on limited gas) will still be the most economical and the truck that can pull the most weight will still be able to pull the most weight in a normal situation.
What you're looking for in general though is the vehicle (or knife) that does those things that YOU do the best.
Quantitative comparisons don't mean everything. But they do mean something.
And while a qualitative test is easily done on a single knife.....doing them on multiple knives and still being able to do a proper objective comparison is extremely difficult.
So I see your point. But just because it's not 100% applicable doesn't mean it doesn't have any uses.
Once again...if a handmade knife didn't work better than it's production counterpart....then you bought the wrong handmade/custom knife.
palonej
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Drops mic and storms off stage and the crowd erupts........
Presumptuous know it all is presumptuous.
Sorry.....couldn't find a gif.
For me, it comes down to my needs and what I'm willing to pay. A $300 dollar folder, whether custom or production, is absurd and I will not pay that for a folder. Because, I work in an office and the most a folder will do for me is open letters and cut some jerky now and then. Now, if I was an avid outdoors-man and my folder was skinning, cutting wood etc. etc., a grand would be within reason and I'd pay it.
I am an LEO, so a good gun is important. I have paid for and carry a complete custom 1911. I wanted a high quality pistol and thats what I got. If all it did with a gun was shoot tin cans in my back yard, a $4000 dollar gun would by absurd.
What will you use it for?
What do you want?
What are you willing to pay?
I am an LEO, so a good gun is important. I have paid for and carry a complete custom 1911. I wanted a high quality pistol and thats what I got. If all it did with a gun was shoot tin cans in my back yard, a $4000 dollar gun would by absurd.
What will you use it for?
What do you want?
What are you willing to pay?
trevitrace
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So I should just buy an opinel and a leatherman squirt/micra? Got it. Thanks, pinnah. :thumbup:
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And this is the problem with the question. The op wants to compare ideas and theories in a hobby that is dominated with physical items. Are all custom better than all production? No and not even close. Most though? Likely so. That is a matter of opinion and without comparing actual physical example this is all sort of pointless. No need to get upset over an argument so flawed from the get go.
Ankerson
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Well having tested more than my fair share of knives over the past 30+ years I can say this.
Performance is a subjective term depending on the individual talking about it.
This Custom vs Production argument will never end and it is true that some of the better production knives are hard to beat these days and the quality will only get better.
For me it goes like this, for max performance I look at custom makers because I know I will get the highest performing knife to fill the task that I need it for.
Custom makers are not all the same however so one has to do their research......
People make their choices based on a lot of reasons on what to buy and I don't think any of them are wrong for the person making that choice.
We all learn as we go through that process that we call life and if we can learn from the mistakes we all make then even better. :thumbup:
Performance is a subjective term depending on the individual talking about it.
This Custom vs Production argument will never end and it is true that some of the better production knives are hard to beat these days and the quality will only get better.
For me it goes like this, for max performance I look at custom makers because I know I will get the highest performing knife to fill the task that I need it for.
Custom makers are not all the same however so one has to do their research......
People make their choices based on a lot of reasons on what to buy and I don't think any of them are wrong for the person making that choice.
We all learn as we go through that process that we call life and if we can learn from the mistakes we all make then even better. :thumbup:
Morrow
Don't make this weird
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Many are here because it's a hobby. All different flavors of collectors and/or accumulators are here. You seem to continually lose sight that practicality has little to do with collecting, accumulating or just enjoying a hobby once you get beyond only a few capable knives. I have more knives in almost every category than I could ever use. I bought 4 knives this month. I'll probably buy a few more next month. What do you care what other people do with their money?
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Thank you for the posts I just read both. I'm glad to see your working hard to find good results with your work. I definitely have always had a feeling that a one man operation would have more freedom to innovate and not vice versa. Good to see I was not all wrong about that
I did paint it rather broad yes as I wish to educate myself as broadly as possible. I have not done anything scientific really but have owned knives since I was about 4 when I got my first sak from my gypsy uncle. Since that time Iv collected and lost or sold quite a few knives from budget to budget friendly custom. It is a bit hard right now to obtain knives as my local guy is kind of crummy and the exchange sucks to mention a few. If you are serious about sending me a knife I would happily test it for you and do an honest review. Thank you for even offering that is very kind indeed.
check ur email, I sent yesterday
Sometimes it is better to ask 10 specific questions rather than one general question.
When it comes to knife performance, some people immediately think of edge retention, others will think of its ability to survive battoning, & others will think only of how light & easy to carry it is. There are so many aspects to knife performance.
When it comes to knife performance, some people immediately think of edge retention, others will think of its ability to survive battoning, & others will think only of how light & easy to carry it is. There are so many aspects to knife performance.
Ya I get it as I said it was a rather broad question. I would apreciate if your going to comment on my post that you not bash me for said post in wine and cheese.
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This gave me a chuckle, as I thought the very thing at the outset of this... flawed argument in my book, and nobody's going to win it.
Throw a dozen people into a room, tell them at the count of 3 start yelling your opinion. Oh, it will get loud... but probably not much will get solved.
Do I have an opinion on this issue? Damn straight I do. Is my opinion right? Probably not to some folks, but it is valid to me.
Oh, and by the way... get a custom.
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