performance knives

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Blues Bender said:
Wow, what a misguided thread!

Think of production as dinner at a restaurant, just your standard burger and fries, or maybe pasta, pizza, etc...

Now think of custom as a homemade dinner made by Ma.

Yep, that about sums it up. It's not about performance or what have you. It's the relationships you can build with makers and the dedication put into the piece.
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What? I've been doing it all wrong. I was buying knives to cut stuff when this whole time I should have...been buying knives to make friends? :confused: I didn't realize it was so hard for some to make friends. :D

I'll amend what I said in the other thread by saying that it's very possible to get a custom that is better then a production but on average, they're about equal IMO. You start accounting for cost and wait times and I just don't see customs being worth while anymore. At least not for simply cutting stuff. Not when a mora can out cut all but 1 of my customs.
 
pinnah said:
Rope cutting tests and chopping contests are to knives as drag races, hill climbs and truck pulls are to car, motorcycle and truck performance. They're loud and exciting but ultimately have no bearing on actual performance in real world applications. Neither rope cutting tests nor chopping contests tell us anything meaningful about how to design a good bushcraft knife or a good hunting knife.

Fans of such tests will immediately stamp their feet and proclaim, "These tests are quantitative, measurable and repeatable" and the proper engineering response to that is "So what?"

Quantifiable methods only matter if you're interested in things that are quantifiable. Overall hunting knife or bushcraft knife performance is not realistically reducible to quantification any more that car, motorcycle or truck performance can be.

Cars, motorcycles and trucks need to be understood in side by side QUALITATIVE reviews done in settings closest to their intended uses. Want a truck for the job site? Results from a truck pull (won by a custom truck, no doubt) won't help you. You need to compare trucks on job site.

People should study or work in marketing. There is a modern myth that all things can be quantified and the performance matches cost. It's a deeply held belief and savy marketers exploit this to sell stuff at high margins so people can lay their heads on their pillows at night convinced that they own "the best".

If you're spending more than $50 to $100 on a knife, you're being sucked in and buying bling for bragging rights, IMO.
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Well said. I'm tired of that testing being rolled out as proof of quality in every thread. If I want a knife that can cut lots of rope, I'll use the testing results he came up with. Otherwise it's merely anecdotal.
 
The only thing relevant about the "performance" of a knife is how it works for you and the things you do with it.....

This is not a one size fits all thing, there are as many variances as there are knife users.
 
Here's some performance... They all shaved afterwards.

[video=youtube;AuUonkpnjUM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuUonkpnjUM[/video]
 
I typically have all my knives re-ground to 12 degrees per side, so I don't even consider performance as delivered: That is quite meaningless to me.

I have had two Custom knives that were complete failures chopping on Maple, one of which would curl its edge over 100 degrees in one stroke at 12 degrees... The other's edge would crumble completely at 15 per side... They totalled over $1500 in value. At 15 degrees per side, one $2000 custom in S30V was a partial failure, doing micro-folds to one side on almost every hit, unless the wood was wet. So thicker edges were of no help to say the least...

By contrast, in factory knives of various prices, from a $150 dollars TOPS at 15 degrees per side, to Al Mars in Aus 6 of $500 value at around 10 degrees per side (not much more), and a Randall Model 12 of $1000, at 12 degrees per side, in all of these I have never had any kind of obvious edge damage while chopping Maple, even at these very thin edge angles. The TOPS did not have huge edge holding, but nothing I would call a drastic failure...

A Chris Reeve Jereboam at 15 per side initially showed serious edge bending and other damage on Maple, but after many sharpenings this later moderated to a performance about on par with the TOPS...: I would guess the edge was surface burned initially...

Not a big sample, but so far customs are way, way more hit and miss, even at the very top end... Lile is notable in consistency as I had two knives to test, both at 10 to 12 degrees, and both had unkillable edges. But in my experience they generally are way more unpredictable compared to factory knives.

Gaston
 
I hesitate to even join in on this thread but it opened with mention of performance. Custom or hand made or whatever does not equal performance. If you are looking for really high PERFORMANCE you have to go to a performance knife maker or start forging your own. Somebody earlier mentioned that you won't find any production knives winning cutting competitions and I believe that is true. Study up on the performance tests that must be passed by American Bladesmith Society master smiths. Then brace yourself for the fact that there are blades out there that can far exceed those tests.

All that said you also seem price sensitive. I am sure there is a place where your performance expectations will match up with your price point and it is quite likely that this point will be found in a production knife. Customs are nice but custom means different things to different people and extreme performance is sought by only a few.

Figure out what you really want and go find it and have fun along the way. Selecting knives should not be painful unless you cut yourself.
 
RedFury said:
I hesitate to even join in on this thread but it opened with mention of performance. Custom or hand made or whatever does not equal performance. If you are looking for really high PERFORMANCE you have to go to a performance knife maker or start forging your own. Somebody earlier mentioned that you won't find any production knives winning cutting competitions and I believe that is true. Study up on the performance tests that must be passed by American Bladesmith Society master smiths. Then brace yourself for the fact that there are blades out there that can far exceed those tests.

All that said you also seem price sensitive. I am sure there is a place where your performance expectations will match up with your price point and it is quite likely that this point will be found in a production knife. Customs are nice but custom means different things to different people and extreme performance is sought by only a few.

Figure out what you really want and go find it and have fun along the way. Selecting knives should not be painful unless you cut yourself.
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Thank you for the honest assessment. This speaks volumes coming from a guy that actually makes knives. I'm not so much price sensitive as I like to know I'm getting the best performance for the dollar. I mean when I buy a drill for work I want performance and I'll pay for it. like you said there is a point where I will find great performance at a reasonable price point to where I'm not afraid to really use the darn thing. But I spent around 130 dollars for my essee izula 2 and I hate it. I guess I'm still searching for a fit and that's okay. Life would be awfully boring without a little exploration and trial and error.
 
Pinnah, I agree with your assertion that rope cutting and chopping tests are crowd pleasers that are not totally quantitative. There are many variables at play there. Right off you have the skill and strength of the COMPETITOR. That is why it is a COMPETTION. Same as a drag race or whatever.

However, I totally disagree that any knife over $100 involves bling over performance. There are those that seek performance as a quest in and of itself. We all know that a Ford Focus will get you to the grocery store but that doesn't mean some people don't work long and hard to buy a Shelby Cobra.

A knife is a tool. A very basic tool. Some tool users are satisfied all their lives with the cheapest tool they can can find. Others seek a tool they will enjoy and they fully intend to pass to the next generation.

Back to where i agree with you again: The qualitative aspect. This relates to the application. It should be perfectly obvious but the most high performance drop point hunter will not be satisfying if what you need is an 8" chef knife.

Oh wait, maybe you would like a high performance 8" chef knife.

Enjoy the quest.
 
Charlie Mike said:
Here's some performance... They all shaved afterwards.

[video=youtube;AuUonkpnjUM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AuUonkpnjUM[/video]
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Lol that was hilarious and also pretty impressive considering the carter is quite hard at the edge is it not? Also your knife cut that shit like butter man.
 
noob93 said:
Lol that was hilarious and also pretty impressive considering the carter is quite hard at the edge is it not? Also your knife cut that shit like butter man.
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And zero damage to the edge on any of them...
 
Good response there Noob. I'm not that much of a maker but I stumbled onto the ABS a few years ago. I found the performance tests just short of unbelievable. That started my quest. Then I went to the Blade Show and talked to some ABS masters and asked some dumb questions. Those guys are so open and generous with the information. Those conversations lead to somebody pointing out Ed Fowler. The conversation with Ed lead to spending time with him forging and testing blades that exceed the ABS standards. The evaluation methods employed by Ed and his students are VERY quantitative. His methods of blade making are very well documented and the results can be replicated over and over.

Where will my quest take me? I'm not sure. My quest is a quest for knowledge more than a quest for an object. I accumulate plenty of objects along the way and I learn something from most of them.

I carry a folding knife all the time and carry a fixed blade only when there is some specific task ahead. So my current goal is to make a folder with a blade that will meet the Ed Fowler performance tests. I'm sure it is possible but I have a whole lot of skills to hone along the way.
 
Hey Noob. another point. I don't need to buy knives to find friends either but the quest for performance knives has lead me to spend time with people of exceptional character. Men who make knives of exceptional quality may not be terribly friendly. They are busy seeking their own Holy Grail but their character is as tough as their steel. Find somebody who trains horses AND makes knives.
 
Blues Bender said:
That's not what I said and you're entirely missing the point. It is not very wise to pretend you know about something you've never experienced.
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I'm starting to this this is the point. Ask a fairly simple question that is completely vague in every aspect, and then when the answers start rolling in, change the question and then add variables. When a simple analogy that sums things up is provided, then you change the question and start the twist merry go round. That is not the best way to have a productive discussion.

To the OP - You want to learn the true answer to whatever your question is, because I have no idea what the hell you are truly asking here or wanting to know. But it is starting to reek of ignorant trolling to me. Seriously. If you want o learn, I mean really learn, then YOU NEED to read, a lot, stop posting and read what has already been written over the last 10-15 years on the forums here, contact custom makers that know their craft inside and out, ask educated question, don't start rambling off these open ended questions that you seem to enjoy changing every few posts. Study the finding from people like Spyderco (Sal Glessar), Phil Wilson, read what Bob Loveless has written, try and find documents composed by Paul Bos, talk to the makers here, Andrew Demko, Phil Wilson, Ed Schempp, RJ Martin, etc. These threads end up turning into nothing more than page after page of confusing garbage that helps no one, and only serves to start arguments over hypothetical things that have no established or shared values. I tried explaining this to you in a much simpler way in your last attempt, but apparently it didn't work. You might want to speak with a specific physics professor type guy elsewhere if you aren't getting the qualified answers you are looking for here. You need to stop with the open ended questions, that is in my opinion the begining of your trolling and it's not going to work.
 
RevDevil said:
I'm starting to this this is the point. Ask a fairly simple question that is completely vague in every aspect, and then when the answers start rolling in, change the question and then add variables. When a simple analogy that sums things up is provided, then you change the question and start the twist merry go round. That is not the best way to have a productive discussion.

To the OP - You want to learn the true answer to whatever your question is, because I have no idea what the hell you are truly asking here or wanting to know. But it is starting to reek of ignorant trolling to me. Seriously. If you want o learn, I mean really learn, then YOU NEED to read, a lot, stop posting and read what has already been written over the last 10-15 years on the forums here, contact custom makers that know their craft inside and out, ask educated question, don't start rambling off these open ended questions that you seem to enjoy changing every few posts. Study the finding from people like Spyderco (Sal Glessar), Phil Wilson, read what Bob Loveless has written, try and find documents composed by Paul Bos, talk to the makers here, Andrew Demko, Phil Wilson, Ed Schempp, RJ Martin, etc. These threads end up turning into nothing more than page after page of confusing garbage that helps no one, and only serves to start arguments over hypothetical things that have no established or shared values. I tried explaining this to you in a much simpler way in your last attempt, but apparently it didn't work. You might want to speak with a specific physics professor type guy elsewhere if you aren't getting the qualified answers you are looking for here. You need to stop with the open ended questions, that is in my opinion the begining of your trolling and it's not going to work.
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In my opinion that's your opinion and it's both wrong and ignorant as you have no real facts to say things like I need to read. Iv read many articles since I was very young on this very site. You calling me a troll is also very ignorant as you have neither the proof or information of that. Most of what you said was your opinion and I don't disregard an opinion however it is an opinion none the less.
 
Nothing wrong with wanting an open ended discussion. Bounce opinions amongst.

On topic, all Benchmade knives are handmade. Im guessing there are others as well. Is there a company thats uses an assembly line to make knives? How many different jobs are needed to build a knife? Probably make more sense to call it production parts where bulk blades and handles are gathered and then put together. By a machine? I dont know; I dont make knives.

Did you know that a lot of makes of knives participate on this forum and surprisingly quite approachable. To both talk and ideas. Its like being around celebrities.
 
noob93 said:
In my opinion that's your opinion and it's both wrong and ignorant as you have no real facts to say things like I need to read. Iv read many articles since I was very young on this very site. You calling me a troll is also very ignorant as you have neither the proof or information of that. Most of what you said was your opinion and I don't disregard an opinion however it is an opinion none the less.
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Dude, he's a super mod and he's correct.
 
wensynch said:
Nothing wrong with wanting an open ended discussion. Bounce opinions amongst.

On topic, all Benchmade knives are handmade. Im guessing there are others as well. Is there a company thats uses an assembly line to make knives? How many different jobs are needed to build a knife? Probably make more sense to call it production parts where bulk blades and handles are gathered and then put together. By a machine? I dont know; I dont make knives.

Did you know that a lot of makes of knives participate on this forum and surprisingly quite approachable. To both talk and ideas. Its like being around celebrities.
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Um, yes there is. Did you not see rev respond asking him to stop? Also, benchmade does not make their knives by hand. Discussion only work if people actually want to have them and also if when people state facts they are correct.
 
Noob, what everyone is trying to say is that such a broad question won't get you to an answer.

If you were to ask, "Hey guys and gals, I've been reading a lot lately since I'm looking for a new fixed blade field knife to use during this upcoming hunting season. I'm wondering if I'll see an improvement by buying a handmade knife or ordering a custom from a maker rather than going to the local supply store and buying something from Gerber, Schrade or Buck. Any help would be appreciated."

Then I could come in and say that for the money, a handmade or custom order from a reputable maker will be light years ahead of any common knife that you'll find in your local store. Better steel, better heat treat, better grinds, and overall much better attention to detail to not only give you a knife that you can use to field dress 10 deer before needing a quick stropping, but also one that will make you proud to use knowing that it was made on a guy's workbench and not punched out by a machine.

Without giving any information as to what you're looking for, you'll never get the answers that you're looking for. As for the hunting scenario described above, I've used the generic knives plenty of times. I've had Bucks, Schrades, Gerbers, Brownings, etc. Not one of those knives can even compare to the handmade knives that I carry now. Edge retention is much better which gives me much greater "performance", meaning I can do more with less effort.
 
Performance will be from design and materials --- knife design, steel/treatment, blade geometry, and edge --- regardless if handmade, production made, or hybrid sort of manufacture.
 
RevDevil said:
I'm starting to this this is the point. Ask a fairly simple question that is completely vague in every aspect, and then when the answers start rolling in, change the question and then add variables. When a simple analogy that sums things up is provided, then you change the question and start the twist merry go round. That is not the best way to have a productive discussion.

To the OP - You want to learn the true answer to whatever your question is, because I have no idea what the hell you are truly asking here or wanting to know. But it is starting to reek of ignorant trolling to me. Seriously. If you want o learn, I mean really learn, then YOU NEED to read, a lot, stop posting and read what has already been written over the last 10-15 years on the forums here, contact custom makers that know their craft inside and out, ask educated question, don't start rambling off these open ended questions that you seem to enjoy changing every few posts. Study the finding from people like Spyderco (Sal Glessar), Phil Wilson, read what Bob Loveless has written, try and find documents composed by Paul Bos, talk to the makers here, Andrew Demko, Phil Wilson, Ed Schempp, RJ Martin, etc. These threads end up turning into nothing more than page after page of confusing garbage that helps no one, and only serves to start arguments over hypothetical things that have no established or shared values. I tried explaining this to you in a much simpler way in your last attempt, but apparently it didn't work. You might want to speak with a specific physics professor type guy elsewhere if you aren't getting the qualified answers you are looking for here. You need to stop with the open ended questions, that is in my opinion the begining of your trolling and it's not going to work.
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Couldn't agree more...
 
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