performance knives

[Skrapmetal]

Only if you don't know what a CNC machine is. You can program any shape into a CNC machine. It takes the art out of Artisan. I am not saying they are not good. Just that no one can claim custom made if they are cranking out hundreds of blades, G10 slabs, and other components from one machine

I think it takes a different type of artisan. The difference is similar to those who forge their own steel and those who do stock removal. I am talking more about those like Carothers, Survive!, and others who use computer-controlled processes in their knifemaking. Not full blown manufacturing operations, although it did take an artisan at some point to design the knife.

But "custom made" and "hand made" is a different discussion.

 

[benchwarmer380]

Except I didnt say anything other than that statement. No context, no explanation. I think thats what some of you did.

That statement alone is what craytab said was wrong. That I shouldnt reply of this thread saying its unfair to assume that someone here may just want to shoot the sht on this forum, a knife forum, general for anyone with an interest, nit just specialists or makers of knives. Theres a section for that. Its not a technical forum, this isnt a technical post either. As that statement was wrong, so I shouldnt mention it in a thread where hand made is a selling point.

Craytab assumed context and that those were my words. Mistakingly. They arent. Benchmade's words.

So some of you are angry at me for repeating something. If anyone disagrees and some are saying that they do disagree with that statement alone, apparently, tell them, or at least explain here why that statement without anything else, is wrong and I will be happy to detail this conundrum with customer support and report back here, cause you know, they arent my words.

I was reading another forum and it struck me when someone was saying they were asking there cause of knife snobs on another forum. Guess who those are? Not me.

And yes, im not a maker. Is that okay?

On topic, all Benchmade knives are handmade.

They are your words. Maybe you were pulled directly from an email, yet for all intents and purposes they are your words. You posted it first as a blanket statement without quotations and then defended it. We are not angry, we just want you to defend your position further than, "Benchmade said it so it must be true".

Many people have explained why it is an inaccurate statement. If you want to take an customer service email as fact and ignore everything else that has been posted then that is your prerogative. Just don't expect people to bow down because you say that X is the highest authority on the matter, they said it so then it must be true.

Read and think.

 

[wensynch]

They are your words. Maybe you were pulled directly from an email, yet for all intents and purposes they are your words. You posted it first as a blanket statement without quotations and then defended it. We are not angry, we just want you to defend your position further than, "Benchmade said it so it must be true".

Many people have explained why it is an inaccurate statement. If you want to take an customer service email as fact and ignore everything else that has been posted then that is your prerogative. Just don't expect people to bow down because you say that X is the highest authority on the matter, they said it so then it must be true.

Read and think.

Right, I did pull a quote directly from an email, without context at first mention. As this topic discussed the differences between custom and production knives and hand made was mentioned several times as something that makes custom knives better performance knives, ergo, handmade hardware and erm, handmade other stuff.

So, I thought I would mention that, hey, BM said all its knives are handmade. Oh, Ive always known that was a direct quote, I just chose not to say.

Crayrab said it was wrong. I replied how? Cause to my amateur knowledge, its not false.. as ive said over and over. How am I defending a statement by another aside from explaining why I agree with it. Its not my statement though, so whatever I say doesnt matter to that point.

Better that, than too say no, all BM knives are not handmade because all BM knives are not handmade. Because I say so.

I think ive been pretty clear its not my statement since I posted the context in a direct quote to crayabs reply saying that quote is wrong. In my 2d reply. The email using handmade wasnt context enough?

Customer rep wrong?

No, some of you just chose to be knife snobs.

 

[BladeScout]

Just let it go. You are like a dog with a bone, fer crying out loud.

 

[wensynch]

Hey, im there too.

Im just repeating what ive said over and over. Youre right.

Done. As other guy said, feel free to delete, or move, or warn.

Better to talk about a subject, here knives, than to talk about others. Ad hominem. Thats trolling to me. IMO.

 

[JR88FAN]

Right, I did pull a quote directly from an email, without context at first mention. As this topic discussed the differences between custom and production knives and hand made was mentioned several times as something that makes custom knives better performance knives, ergo, handmade hardware and erm, handmade other stuff.

So, I thought I would mention that, hey, BM said all its knives are handmade. Oh, Ive always known that was a direct quote, I just chose not to say.

Crayrab said it was wrong. I replied how? Cause to my amateur knowledge, its not false.. as ive said over and over. How am I defending a statement by another aside from explaining why I agree with it. Its not my statement though, so whatever I say doesnt matter to that point.

Better that, than too say no, all BM knives are not handmade because all BM knives are not handmade. Because I say so.

I think ive been pretty clear its not my statement since I posted the context in a direct quote to crayabs reply saying that quote is wrong. In my 2d reply. The email using handmade wasnt context enough?

Customer rep wrong?

No, some of you just chose to be knife snobs.

First you need to define "hand made"

Some people's definitions are quiet vague...maybe not as vague as saying that "BM's are hand made" but you never know.

I don't believe that any BM Rep that knew the slightest about how the knives are made would say that.

 

[rustyrazor]

Hey, im there too.

Im just repeating what ive said over and over. Youre right.

Done. As other guy said, feel free to delete, or move, or warn.

Better to talk about a subject, here knives, than to talk about others. Ad hominem. Thats trolling to me. IMO.

you are just repeating what you have said over and over... that is correct! and other than that it's the only correct thing you have said, since you said "i'm not a knifemaker". i only comment here because i feel sour that i have read these 8 pages and listened to your regurgitation of the same quote you have read, over and over to try to say something you obviously don't understand... so, since you like quotes so much, i'll leave you with this one quote my grandmother used to say to me; "you have two ears, and one mouth... and you'd be wise to use them that way" You may not be a knifemaker or authority on what means what, but you are on here arguing with people who have spent most of their lives dedicated to knives and yet you still assume you are right and refuse to listen. anyone who assembles parts on a line is NOT a knifemaker! regardless of what the almighty authority of a BM rep might have you believe... the company is called "benchmade" for a reason... not "handmade"

 

[palonej]

Is anyone else here catching the scent of RX??? I'm getting a flash back and a migraine......gotta be RX!!!
Joe

 

[benchwarmer380]

Right, I did pull a quote directly from an email, without context at first mention. As this topic discussed the differences between custom and production knives and hand made was mentioned several times as something that makes custom knives better performance knives, ergo, handmade hardware and erm, handmade other stuff.

So, I thought I would mention that, hey, BM said all its knives are handmade. Oh, Ive always known that was a direct quote, I just chose not to say.

Crayrab said it was wrong. I replied how? Cause to my amateur knowledge, its not false.. as ive said over and over. How am I defending a statement by another aside from explaining why I agree with it. Its not my statement though, so whatever I say doesnt matter to that point.

Better that, than too say no, all BM knives are not handmade because all BM knives are not handmade. Because I say so.

I think ive been pretty clear its not my statement since I posted the context in a direct quote to crayabs reply saying that quote is wrong. In my 2d reply. The email using handmade wasnt context enough?

Customer rep wrong?

No, some of you just chose to be knife snobs.

Please, take a step back and watch the video I posted. Also look through this. https://www.benchmade.com/factory-tour

Now think to yourself. Is it possible that what the BM rep said to you is either a little inaccurate, slightly misleading, or flat out wrong based on what the common conception of handmade is?

People in this very thread have explained the differences in handmade and hand assembled. That argument has been presented. If you need further reading on the subject, read through the Custom and Handmade Knives forum previously linked to.

You are the one that brought up the line of dialogue that Benchmades are handmade. Since you brought it up, I think it is fair to conclude that you agree with it or else why would you say it. So now please explain why you think it is an accurate statement.

 

[1234]

Not sure if this was already posted.

While there was “handmade” and “factory-made,” it was “Benchmade” that described the quality of Les’ product. He was building an operation that made precision parts, but with hand assembly on the finished products. This was a “bench” operation and Les wanted the name to reflect the marriage of manufactured and custom. In short, it describes Benchmade’s position in the market- even to this day

https://www.benchmade.com/benchmade-history

Now that should end this part of the discussion.



1234,,,

 

[craytab]

Not sure if this was already posted.


https://www.benchmade.com/benchmade-history

Now that should end this part of the discussion.



1234,,,

It was pointed out multiple times to this guy that benchmade describes their manufacturing process as manufacturing and thus could not be handmade. The idea is lost on him.

 

[pinnah]

Many are here because it's a hobby. All different flavors of collectors and/or accumulators are here. You seem to continually lose sight that practicality has little to do with collecting, accumulating or just enjoying a hobby once you get beyond only a few capable knives. I have more knives in almost every category than I could ever use. I bought 4 knives this month. I'll probably buy a few more next month. What do you care what other people do with their money?

Morrow,

Sorry for the long delay in responding. Went camping with the family a long way from cell coverage.

I'm afraid that you're reading something into what I wrote that isn't there to conclude that I care one way or another what people spend on knives. All I said is that when you spend more than $100 you're heading down the road of buying bling for bragging rights. And if you think about it, this is exactly what you've said in saying that practicality has little to do with collecting and accumulating as a hobby. Spot on.

I take the OP at face value. I've worked with a lot of customers similarly confused about value (different industry). I think we all would do the OP a service about being straight-forward and direct about the luxury aspect of expensive knives. Plenty of well-established reasons to buy luxury items. The pride of ownership of a unique, bespoke item. The gratification of supporting an artisan in their craft.

But the engineer in me must point out that we do the OP (and our credibility) a disservice if, in our praise of high-end customs, we cross the line into non-sense. It's non-sense to assert that customs perform better and it's equally non-sensical to point to chopping tests or rope cutting tests to justify that claim.

Here's an example from my brother-in-laws watches. One is a business man and he wears a high end Rolex. He loves it and every few years takes pride in paying many 100s of dollars to have it cleaned and serviced by Rolex. The other is a sailor and wears a Casio G-Shock. We all understand that the first simply loves the Rolex as a luxury item, just like it treasures his Mont Blanc pen. But nobody is going to entertain a conversation that the Rolex keeps better time. That's just silly.

 

[GermanyChris]

I'm not faster on my custom bike frames than I am on my production frames but that misses the point

 

[pinnah]

Well having tested more than my fair share of knives over the past 30+ years I can say this.

Performance is a subjective term depending on the individual talking about it.

This Custom vs Production argument will never end and it is true that some of the better production knives are hard to beat these days and the quality will only get better.

For me it goes like this, for max performance I look at custom makers because I know I will get the highest performing knife to fill the task that I need it for.

Custom makers are not all the same however so one has to do their research......

I very much agree with the bolded bits with respect to advanced users.

My experience with custom bicycles is that the primary FUNCTIONAL reason to go custom is that you can't find what you are looking for in the production market. With both knives and bikes, the user needs to be pretty advanced to be able tell the small differences and to have a genuine opinion on what performs best for HIM (or her).

I know exactly what I want from a bike frame and know for sure I can't find that design in production. I have some knife itches that can't be scratched in production models and will require custom to make me happy.

But all I can say is that these things preform better for me and my personal style and my personal uses. What I can't say is that these designs are better performers in some general sense (as in for you or for somebody else), nor can I say that performance is due to the fact that it's a custom. Performance is primarily dictated by design and materials and if there was a big enough market to justify it, the same design done in the same materials but made in a production manner would perform just the same.

 

[Ankerson]

I very much agree with the bolded bits with respect to advanced users.

My experience with custom bicycles is that the primary FUNCTIONAL reason to go custom is that you can't find what you are looking for in the production market. With both knives and bikes, the user needs to be pretty advanced to be able tell the small differences and to have a genuine opinion on what performs best for HIM (or her).

I know exactly what I want from a bike frame and know for sure I can't find that design in production. I have some knife itches that can't be scratched in production models and will require custom to make me happy.

But all I can say is that these things preform better for me and my personal style and my personal uses. What I can't say is that these designs are better performers in some general sense (as in for you or for somebody else), nor can I say that performance is due to the fact that it's a custom. Performance is primarily dictated by design and materials and if there was a big enough market to justify it, the same design done in the same materials but made in a production manner would perform just the same.

The bike thing is funny really, I used to build custom bikes for people over 20 years ago so I won't even touch on that subject, never was a big bike person personally, never saw the point, not really.

All I will say is there was a large difference between some bike you buy at Wally World (Huffy) and the high end production and customs that are available, that's from building and repairing them....

I tend to think that is far more complicated than knives are, but I will agree that a very small percentage of advanced riders might be able to tell the difference.

Lots of posers in the bike world from what I remember, more money than since.....

Kinda like the people with the jacked up trucks etc that are nothing more than street queens and the wannabee Fast and Furious crowd..... LOL

 

[pinnah]

Pinnah, I agree with your assertion that rope cutting and chopping tests are crowd pleasers that are not totally quantitative. There are many variables at play there. Right off you have the skill and strength of the COMPETITOR. That is why it is a COMPETTION. Same as a drag race or whatever.

However, I totally disagree that any knife over $100 involves bling over performance. There are those that seek performance as a quest in and of itself. We all know that a Ford Focus will get you to the grocery store but that doesn't mean some people don't work long and hard to buy a Shelby Cobra.

A knife is a tool. A very basic tool. Some tool users are satisfied all their lives with the cheapest tool they can can find. Others seek a tool they will enjoy and they fully intend to pass to the next generation.

Back to where i agree with you again: The qualitative aspect. This relates to the application. It should be perfectly obvious but the most high performance drop point hunter will not be satisfying if what you need is an 8" chef knife.

Oh wait, maybe you would like a high performance 8" chef knife.

Enjoy the quest.

RedFury,

Two points of clarification. I don't criticize chopping or rope cutting tests for lacking objectivity. My point is that knife performance itself is a qualitative and can't be reduced to quantitative results.

A common analogy from car or truck buying. I'm guessing that you, like most of us, have consulted magazines like Car & Driver or Consumer Reports and looked at quantitative results like 1/4-mile times or repair histories. I consider these results to be objective enough to not seriously doubt the results.

But I'm sure that you, like me, are actually more interested in the qualitative and subject reviews of the cars and on the test drive. Performance of knives and cars and skis and bike and most things that involve the user is best understood as a combination of factors. Some of those factors, like acceleration and edge retention, can be illuminated by 1/4-mile runs and rope cutting. But we shouldn't say that a car is a better performer just because it has a better 1/4-mile time, nor should we point to rope cutting or chopping tests to say that this knife or that knife is a better performer.

Just to emphasize, these tests are very useful and illuminating but to be useful, we need to understand what they do and do NOT tell us.

Second point of clarification... I didn't say all knives over $100. I said when you go over $100, you're heading down the road of buying bling for bragging rights. For some people for some uses, there will be some knives north of $100 that produce honest functional benefits. But I stand by statement. The primary thing one gets is more beautiful execution, not better performance.

 

[strategy9]

Wow, what a misguided thread!

Think of production as dinner at a restaurant, just your standard burger and fries, or maybe pasta, pizza, etc...

Now think of custom as a homemade dinner made by Ma.

Yep, that about sums it up.

That's a great analogy... on so many levels!

Another thing is, the thread in question was the same knife made production vs. custom, but the reality is, how often is it actually the "same" knife... also consider who the custom maker is vs. the production company and materials used...

I have zero custom jobby's, but man I love dinner with MA, and she's not even a really good cook...

 

[Gaston444]

I said when you go over $100, you're heading down the road of buying bling for bragging rights. For some people for some uses, there will be some knives north of $100 that produce honest functional benefits. But I stand by statement. The primary thing one gets is more beautiful execution, not better performance.

For small knives intended mainly for slicing this could be true: I've stated a $25 Kershaw RJ Tactical is every bit as good to my eyes as a $400 Sebenza (actually way better in design), and in fact on many separate points it is significantly better from a purely functional point of view.

But for big knives I did not observe this: Big knives chopping at thin edge angles (which is the way I like chopping knives) often rank up according to price in edge-holding... It could just be a coincidence given my limited sample, since a $2000 RJ Martin did constant micro folds on its edge despite much thicker edge angles, so it was not a success despite the price... The cheapest big knife to hold a thin edge angle (below 15 per side) with no visible damage while chopping wood has been for me a $1000 Randall Model 12... A $500 Al Mar did also, but it was not as big a knife, so it had a lower impact force.

Just as their price would indicate, $2000 Liles probably held up their thinned-out edges better than anything else... And contrary to what one might assume, the Liles I've seen were quite roughly finished, with wavy uneven main flats that I had to have re-ground flatter... Even the $25 Kershaw was more finely finished...

It could be a cheap large Ontario-style chopper will have an edge that can be ground as thin as 12 degrees per side, and show no visible damage from chopping, but cheap big knives tend to not be thin edged to begin with... So for big knives I would say price does seem to influence actual edge performance, because the performance factor of impact on the edge could be related to how slowly it was ground to a given thinner edge... For folders is where I am much more skeptical that any significant performance difference really shows...

Gaston

 

[wensynch]

Please, take a step back and watch the video I posted. Also look through this. https://www.benchmade.com/factory-tour

Now think to yourself. Is it possible that what the BM rep said to you is either a little inaccurate, slightly misleading, or flat out wrong based on what the common conception of handmade is?

People in this very thread have explained the differences in handmade and hand assembled. That argument has been presented. If you need further reading on the subject, read through the Custom and Handmade Knives forum previously linked to.

You are the one that brought up the line of dialogue that Benchmades are handmade. Since you brought it up, I think it is fair to conclude that you agree with it or else why would you say it. So now please explain why you think it is an accurate statement.

Think about what you wrote.

That is possible, but Ill repeat, the statement is that if Benchmade. A representation from BM directly to me as a consumer which merely passed along. Correct? Whatever you say here, whatever highly advanced explanation you may have, whatever I have to say, makes no impact to that statement. None. No relevance. Doesnt change it. Cannot change it. You know why? Its BM's statement.

A statement which was taken out of context and to which now you are attempting to explain using tue out of ordinary sense and in the context of custom. Lets think of the statement from tye custom context then. In the custom sense, are Benchmade knives no longer hand made? Or just not to the level, or sense of custom?

Even if I were concede to whatever it is you said, then what?

Still irrelevant, cause nothing I write can change what BM wrote to me. The only way you people are right is if you complain directly to BM and have them change its words and admit they are inaccurate.

Ill admit wrong but here I cant be; I wrote nothing formed from my own beliefs. I merely baited knife snobs with a quote for example.. without quotes.

Again, if you like, I will pass on your concern for you. Ill have no doubts BM wont deny its words to me. This can be answered with resolution. No need to speculate.


Own up. See the error. Move on.

 

[hexenjager]

Think about what you wrote.

That is possible, but Ill repeat, the statement is that if Benchmade. A representation from BM directly to me as a consumer which merely passed along. Correct? Whatever you say here, whatever highly advanced explanation you may have, whatever I have to say, makes no impact to that statement. None. No relevance. Doesnt change it. Cannot change it. You know why? Its BM's statement.

A statement which was taken out of context and to which now you are attempting to explain using tue out of ordinary sense and in the context of custom. Lets think of the statement from tye custom context then. In the custom sense, are Benchmade knives no longer hand made? Or just not to the level, or sense of custom?

Even if I were concede to whatever it is you said, then what?

Still irrelevant, cause nothing I write can change what BM wrote to me. The only way you people are right is if you complain directly to BM and have them change its words and admit they are inaccurate.

Ill admit wrong but here I cant be; I wrote nothing formed from my own beliefs. I merely baited knife snobs with a quote for example.. without quotes.

Again, if you like, I will pass on your concern for you. Ill have no doubts BM wont deny its words to me. This can be answered with resolution. No need to speculate.


Own up. See the error. Move on.

The "baited knife snobs" bit sounds a bit like an admission of trolling to me, but I'm no expert and it's not my call. I'm not going to argue with you.