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No, I'm curious. I've never heard of batoning with an axe, and I don't see how it's really possible. Can you explain or direct me to a video demonstrating it? Thanks.
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Philosophy of expensive large thick chopper?
- Thread starter SMOKING
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No, I'm curious. I've never heard of batoning with an axe, and I don't see how it's really possible. Can you explain or direct me to a video demonstrating it? Thanks.
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I'm sorry, but this isn't much of an argument when it comes down to knives vs axes. Every culture developed their take on the axe as well. Physics being what it is both long knives and axes have a great deal of utility, but excel at slightly different tasks.
Certain cultures don't favor machete like knives because they're "primitive". They're favored by people who live in jungles, as opposed to forests. Axes don't work on vines, just as machetes get beat up by hardwood. The tools evolved for what was being cut daily, and then whether it would have to serve as a weapon on top of that.
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You have not used one then. I have used large knives and they do so much more than medium knives. Big knives do lots of things that others knives cannot do. an 8-12 inch blade can perform the task of many tools, small knife, medium knife, hatchet etc. A weapon for sure if you need it. you just don't have much experience.
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It seems that many of the comments in this thread appear to focus on only one or two of the three of specifications from the OP (the 5/16" thickness & chopping presumably wood). The OP also included a third spec of only 8.5" long blade length. In general, I would assume this would disqualify many of the previously mentioned machete, kukri, and other bladed tools mentioned in support of A) 5/16" thick B) 8.5" long C) choppers.
I think the 8.5" length would disqualify a number of statements related to knives historically mentioned in this thread.
I would enjoy learning about any performers from history that really stood out as good performers meeting the OP's spec's. Most specifically, any that would NOT be made better performers by having a longer blade length. I am truly interested in learning something here, as on the surface just does not make sense from my experiences related to chopping, good weight and an effective sweet zone on the cutting edge that allows good use of a thick heavy blade.
With regard to examples batoning with an axe or hatchet; I would add to this thread that my kit includes a tomahawk and that I many times baton with it. Fine notching work is accomplished by setting the edge location and specific angle desired then batoning the back of eye, same as with a knife except that you have more options as to the angle of impact with the baton. I have also split a number of logs this way (3' - 5') to make bench seats (half logs resting on notched rounds, etc.). Many other uses for batoning with a hawk that I would suspect also would translate to a small axe or hatchet & batoning. I prefer the hawk (to say a hatchet or small axe when packing in on foot) as the bit is easily removable from the haft (and is a very useful tool by itself and/or with a batton, think wood chisel, ulu, etc.). Had a epic day by the river batoning with a hawk & site-made wood wedges splitting off planks of wood from an old growth cedar that had been taken down by river flows along a undercut bend. Hope this helps illustrate, for those in question related to the merits of this application.
Batoning pic added:
This piece of cedar is part of one of the smaller sections reclaimed/harvested in description above.
In this example, I was attempting to establish how narrow a V was required (for depth of cut) to make it through (waste reduction/conservation).
The narrower the V, the more the cut comes closer to a true crosscut (more difficult, but less wasteful of this sweet old growth Western Red Cedar).
The dents & dings on this hawks haft are from throwing, NOT from overstrikes batoning. Throwing hawks creates forces that can dislodge the head from haft upon impact with target while at the same time the inside of the eye makes these nasty depressions as the haft fiercly rattles is way loose in the haft. "Character marks" v. marks of carelessness are worn proud
Sections were then planked out into fire-boards & spindles for fire-starting projects (again batoning with the hawk). I see DeadBoxHero already posted a nice pic illustrating batoning with the grain of the wood in a firewood splitting application.
Splitting & Planing (included batoning):
Bench, supports, & a shelf (left foreground) used batoning in various applications to accomplish.
EDIT: I just re-read the OP and realised it stated 8" - 12" blade length (I mistakenly read this as 8-1/2"). My bad sorry, 10" - 12" range is much more understandable. However, I would still believe that weight distributed across a higher blade profile would perform better than going the super thick / short-blade-height route. Similar to the performance benefit a pole adds to an axe, tomahawk, etc. (increases the swing dynamics & energy transfer to the edge upon impact). Still interested to see any historic performers that meet the OP.
I think the 8.5" length would disqualify a number of statements related to knives historically mentioned in this thread.
I would enjoy learning about any performers from history that really stood out as good performers meeting the OP's spec's. Most specifically, any that would NOT be made better performers by having a longer blade length. I am truly interested in learning something here, as on the surface just does not make sense from my experiences related to chopping, good weight and an effective sweet zone on the cutting edge that allows good use of a thick heavy blade.
With regard to examples batoning with an axe or hatchet; I would add to this thread that my kit includes a tomahawk and that I many times baton with it. Fine notching work is accomplished by setting the edge location and specific angle desired then batoning the back of eye, same as with a knife except that you have more options as to the angle of impact with the baton. I have also split a number of logs this way (3' - 5') to make bench seats (half logs resting on notched rounds, etc.). Many other uses for batoning with a hawk that I would suspect also would translate to a small axe or hatchet & batoning. I prefer the hawk (to say a hatchet or small axe when packing in on foot) as the bit is easily removable from the haft (and is a very useful tool by itself and/or with a batton, think wood chisel, ulu, etc.). Had a epic day by the river batoning with a hawk & site-made wood wedges splitting off planks of wood from an old growth cedar that had been taken down by river flows along a undercut bend. Hope this helps illustrate, for those in question related to the merits of this application.
Batoning pic added:
This piece of cedar is part of one of the smaller sections reclaimed/harvested in description above.
In this example, I was attempting to establish how narrow a V was required (for depth of cut) to make it through (waste reduction/conservation).
The narrower the V, the more the cut comes closer to a true crosscut (more difficult, but less wasteful of this sweet old growth Western Red Cedar).
The dents & dings on this hawks haft are from throwing, NOT from overstrikes batoning. Throwing hawks creates forces that can dislodge the head from haft upon impact with target while at the same time the inside of the eye makes these nasty depressions as the haft fiercly rattles is way loose in the haft. "Character marks" v. marks of carelessness are worn proud
Sections were then planked out into fire-boards & spindles for fire-starting projects (again batoning with the hawk). I see DeadBoxHero already posted a nice pic illustrating batoning with the grain of the wood in a firewood splitting application.
Splitting & Planing (included batoning):
Bench, supports, & a shelf (left foreground) used batoning in various applications to accomplish.
EDIT: I just re-read the OP and realised it stated 8" - 12" blade length (I mistakenly read this as 8-1/2"). My bad sorry, 10" - 12" range is much more understandable. However, I would still believe that weight distributed across a higher blade profile would perform better than going the super thick / short-blade-height route. Similar to the performance benefit a pole adds to an axe, tomahawk, etc. (increases the swing dynamics & energy transfer to the edge upon impact). Still interested to see any historic performers that meet the OP.
Last edited:
stabman
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Hudson Bay Knife was originally 1/4 inch thick and had an 8.5 inch blade:
http://www.blacksmithsgazette.com/Blacksmithing/article2.htm
http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php/92326-History-and-birth-of-a-knife
Now that's only 4/16" instead of 5/16", but so what; still in the same range size-wise.
And people used them...in the woods!
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What about the expensive part? That is something no one touched on yet 
stabman
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What about the expensive part? That is something no one touched on yet
That could be a valid area of discussion.
Part of it is that everything is getting expensive.
I'm not that old, and in the time I've been buying my own food, bread and pasta have more than doubled in price.
Mostly it will simply be a case of companies trying to make enough cash to have profit, and keep their employees able to buy things...like bread, which more than doubled in price!
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Hudson Bay Knife was originally 1/4 inch thick and had an 8.5 inch blade:
http://www.blacksmithsgazette.com/Blacksmithing/article2.htm
http://bushcraftusa.com/forum/showthread.php/92326-History-and-birth-of-a-knife
Now that's only 4/16" instead of 5/16", but so what; still in the same range size-wise.
And people used them...in the woods!
stabman,
THANK YOU for providing the referenced links you did!
Yes, I do agree 1/4" is "in the same range size-wise" as 5/16" and that the Hudson Bay Knife was/is a formidable tool. Discontinued in the late 1800's ..., and one might say superseded by knives of thinner blade stock.
My comments in this thread relate to a perception I had reading the OP, that he specifically stated 5/16" blade thickness as this would actually be thicker than knives like the Hudson Bay, thereby disqualifying the more common 1/4" stock blades. To me he was saying thick heavy knives 5/16" (& possibly thicker) as relates to many of the knives released in the last decade or so in which I perceived he was questioning the merit.
If I specified a heavy 5/16" finished blade thickness, and a maker showed me 1/4" stock as his/her beginning piece of steel I believe I would ask a leading question related to what part of the specification was not understood ... perhaps he would surprise me with forging out a fine San-Mai blade to 5/16" thick or maybe he planned hammer welded damascus to the specified 5/16" finished thickness ... To me, 1/4" stock is NOT 5/16" finished blade thickness and is much the root of my previous post.
So much to interpretation of the written word. My background deals in plans & specifications, and inspections related to to adherence ..., as the person who wrote them is the only one who can be tasked with determining if something less than "can" be accepted as equal (with a written deviation from original spec for all involved parties).
I really liked the included video on the Hudson Bay by Lisa West. I had read articles on reproductions of Jukes and Coulson Hudson Bay Knives and the original knife it was modeled after, but had not seen this video. It was nice to see that Lisa West did not make the same mistake of epoxy applying handle scale rivet caps as others have. Thanks again!
and YES, I too love good choppers ;-)
Regards,
stabman
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It was interesting looking up some stuff about the Hudson Bay Knife.
I'm sure that woodsmen of that time would have used an axe for really heavy wood processing, but it seems like it filled the niche that many of us do these days with our choices of big knives.
Now I have a hankering to get one though...gah!
I'm sure that woodsmen of that time would have used an axe for really heavy wood processing, but it seems like it filled the niche that many of us do these days with our choices of big knives.
Now I have a hankering to get one though...gah!
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It was interesting looking up some stuff about the Hudson Bay Knife.
I'm sure that woodsmen of that time would have used an axe for really heavy wood processing, but it seems like it filled the niche that many of us do these days with our choices of big knives.
Now I have a hankering to get one though...gah!
Yep, agreed.
mean time - I pulled out a cut-down kukari (13" now 10.5" blade) and a few other medium-large fixed blades that fit that 8" - 12" range. Lucky for me I have some wood sections I brought home from a recent woods trip to play with ;-) I think I'll bring the Ontario cleaver too, as I just swung it a couple times and it made that cool thwuet song passing through the air. It is my guess that I will come away still believing 5/16" is probably just past that sweet performance threshold and into the realm of availability merely making something more expensive than it really needs to be ...
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Put that thing on there and whack it haha
Ok, for some reason I was thinking that was what you were talking about but that there was no way that could be batoning... brain fart I guess.
Where I live, a large chopper is typically more useful than an ax 3 seasons of the year. I use it more as a heavy machete and they're much safer than an ax since most of what I process is under 4 inches.
Personally, I find the common "medium" survival knife sizes (5 to around 8 inch) is like taking the girl that asked you out to prom because your other choices turned you down. Too small to be effective choppers and too big to be fine working tools. I typically carry a woodlore clone and a boker camp knife when im innawoods which I find to be more satisfactory than something like an ESEE 6.
Best chopper I've tried to date is an ESEE Junglas. It handles much like a ESEE 6...just better at chopping.
Personally, I find the common "medium" survival knife sizes (5 to around 8 inch) is like taking the girl that asked you out to prom because your other choices turned you down. Too small to be effective choppers and too big to be fine working tools. I typically carry a woodlore clone and a boker camp knife when im innawoods which I find to be more satisfactory than something like an ESEE 6.
Best chopper I've tried to date is an ESEE Junglas. It handles much like a ESEE 6...just better at chopping.
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I'm not a leave no trace, nor am I an ultra-light person.
My philosophy is leave no garbage.
If someone wants to build a wilderness castle with an axe they lugged 20 miles into the bush, more power to them.:thumbup:
If they want to carry a multi-tool with no blade and take pictures of pretty birds, hey, that's fine too.
I'm with the leave no garbage. I don't mind leaving a trace, but generally it's only a trace. I do like to take pictures and sometimes you modify your environment a little for a picture.
Big knives have their place and I like them. I just don't use them for much of anything and last I checked, I haven't seen any zombies wandering around my woods. But it depends if you call a machete a "big knife" as I really do use them from time to time. It is those in between sizes 6-9" that I seldom have much use for even though I own them.
stabman
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There's been a few times I was hiking through somewhere a full-sized machete would have been really handy. The one time I was testing out a 10 inch blade machete I ended up giving to my wife, and it wasn't really cutting it (pun somewhat intended, but it was also true).
Another time, I was carrying this one I made:
My brother and I were heading out of the woods at night, and it had been a long day. My back was spasming (pills kept me upright), and I'd twisted my left knee pretty bad. We got to an area all filled with thorn trees for as far as our headlamps could illuminate.
We could have back-tracked and dicked around, but I wanted out now.
So, although it is on the heavy side, it has the ability to cut through vines, branches of various sizes and even the small whippy stuff (10.5 inch blade...well, 10.25 inch now after years of use), and I slashed like mad, creating a path through it; slashing to the front, the side, even behind as stupid thorns snagged on my pain-fueled rampage out of there.
It worked.
A machete might have been better at that point in the day, but the big knife excelled for all the other tasks that were accomplished before the pain hit.
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You could have used the saw on your Vic Farmer......
I have to say that I love big knives. I really do. I see a big one and I want it. It is the using part that gets me and I pretty much have decided that I don't care if I ever use them. I get 'em, because I think they're cool.
If I am in a park some where and the open woods, I don't carry a machete. But if I am in a brushy area watching for snakes with every step, getting caught in thorny vines, and so forth, that is when I like to have a machete with me. But I seldom carry one with me unless I have the forsight that I am going to need to do some bush wacking.
I don't mind doing some careful "trimming" even if I am in a park. But I wouldn't do it if there was anyone around. Yeah, I'm leaving a trace.....
I have to say that I love big knives. I really do. I see a big one and I want it. It is the using part that gets me and I pretty much have decided that I don't care if I ever use them. I get 'em, because I think they're cool.
If I am in a park some where and the open woods, I don't carry a machete. But if I am in a brushy area watching for snakes with every step, getting caught in thorny vines, and so forth, that is when I like to have a machete with me. But I seldom carry one with me unless I have the forsight that I am going to need to do some bush wacking.
I don't mind doing some careful "trimming" even if I am in a park. But I wouldn't do it if there was anyone around. Yeah, I'm leaving a trace.....
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stabman,
I LIKE!
And I bet "she will coot" especially when on a rampage
Just be careful or ... you could end up like my good friend (happened a long ways from anywhere, in the first few minutes of field use after I reprofiled the primary and secondary bevels on his chopper).
[video=youtube;gKXvLXHkptA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKXvLXHkptA&list=PLKO2m4TQ_9r4TtiI449zwgjDfYYKk1vtZ&index=18[/video]
[video=youtube;BwKa-67f2Cs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwKa-67f2Cs&list=PLKO2m4TQ_9r4TtiI449zwgjDfYYKk1vtZ&index=17[/video]
I LIKE!
And I bet "she will coot" especially when on a rampage
Just be careful or ... you could end up like my good friend (happened a long ways from anywhere, in the first few minutes of field use after I reprofiled the primary and secondary bevels on his chopper).
[video=youtube;gKXvLXHkptA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKXvLXHkptA&list=PLKO2m4TQ_9r4TtiI449zwgjDfYYKk1vtZ&index=18[/video]
[video=youtube;BwKa-67f2Cs]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BwKa-67f2Cs&list=PLKO2m4TQ_9r4TtiI449zwgjDfYYKk1vtZ&index=17[/video]