Pit Bull mauling and killing in California

I have owned dogs as far back as I can remember...all different breeds.


A few things I learned as a kid:

1 - A chained up dog will get mean and bite.

My German spitz (small white samoyed-ish dog) - I teased and tormented that dog and he was tied up all day. I would run back and forth just out of reach...couldn't touch me...and would trick him a lot. Eventually bit my grandmother (not a frail woman either) who was just reaching down to pet her....we ended up putting the dog down. Yes, I felt responsible and have never repeated the behavior.

2 - small dog or not, hyper dog will bite.

We had a small dog (probably a min-pin or similar sized) that we kept in the backyard. Sometimes would get loose. One day, neighbor kid let it out of the yard and it chased him down the sidewalk. Bit him in the rear end (the kid had been teasing it for months and honestly, the boy deserved it). Parents sued and won. :mad:


3 - dogs like to chase

I found out quickly that if I stood my ground, the dogs never chased me. They enjoyed the chase...the "hunt"....more than anything else. Even as a young adult in a foreign country...my buddies were often bit by dogs....I never was. One guy got bit in the same place twice...on the same day. I've squared off against some large, mean dogs too...I would just pick up rocks are start to throw them at 'em...they'd eventually decide it wasn't worth it.




As I get older...I'm less afraid of dogs. I play/wrestle with Jessie all the time and have taught her to back off if I say "ouch"...or even start to squeal. Works every time. I have the confidence that my dog will not be responsible for attacking someone else. The "dog just snapped one day" theory....I don't believe a word of it. Dogs don't snap. They build up frustration from neglect and need an outlet for it. Imagine putting a concert pianist in a piano store 24 hrs a day...he can listen, but can't touch....in fact, he has to sit in the corner and can't "cross the carpet line". When you finally let him approach a piano....do you think he'll be just a little keyed-up? (pun intended :D)

So why would you chain up a dog and then be surprised when it rushes out the door/gate at the first sight of a good time?


I do agree than chaining up a pit bull is the worst thing you can do to it....and it affects it worse than other breeds. The curiosity, independence and problem-solving skills hard-wired into the dog just bottle up.


A well-socialized dog that gets exercise, mental tasks to perform and attention every day does not "snap". They are happy. They want to stay that way.





A further note (rambling): The I'm-Bigger-And-Scarier-Than-You attitude works great. For some animals (like bears) you play dead. For aggressive dogs...you make yourself bigger and scarier and more vicious and the dog knows to stay away. It's nature...evolution even. ;)
 
My Bully say's she hopes she never runs into one of those PitBulls as they sound scary !!!

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I think this has turned out to be a very interesting thread reading everyones different views. Daniel has some very valid points. Another thing is that you can't trust any animal, whether tame, happy or not. They can all revert back to wild animals and bite on instinct in seconds. I have seen tame dogs turn on their owners and their owners children.
 
I like the theory to defeat a pack of 'em, go after the biggest one, and don't stop until he's on his back on the ground. No striking, no whipping, no beating, just wrestling them to show that they're all your new playtoy. This is definitely not to be used against hostile dogs, but with a new pack (say if your honey has a pack of dogs and you just moved in).

Worst case, if you're attacked by a pack, still go after the biggest, scariest one, and don't stop until he's dead. At least that would be my response if me, my girlfriend, or my dog was attacked.
 
The way a pack would attack is very, I hate to say it, cool. I saw a film of an attack. One of the innocent females was sent out as a distraction while the rest of the pack stayed out of sight and waited. This single dog didn't have a chance. When the time was right the pack ambushed the other dog and the female jumped right in on it. Luckily the show did a replay in slow motion and the packs timing was perfect. As I remember the single dog was sniffing the female and that's when they attacked. They mauled that dog to nothing.

Sometimes it's hard to identify the alpha male of the pack. It's supposed to be that way. It acts as a defensive tactic. The largest and scariest dog may not always be the alpha male.
 
Good lookin' dog Pitdog.

Cheers bro !

My dog is the most loyal companion I have known, I can tell straight away if she is happy,sad, bored,tired etc....like all the dogs I have met she cannot hide her feelings from me.
It is other people that scare me for they can be as nice as pie to your face and stab you as soon as your back is turned, given the choice of another persons company or my dogs,I will take my dogs every time !!!;)
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Cheers bro !

My dog is the most loyal companion I have known, I can tell straight away if she is happy,sad, bored,tired etc....like all the dogs I have met she cannot hide her feelings from me.
It is other people that scare me for they can be as nice as pie to your face and stab you as soon as your back is turned, given the choice of another persons company or my dogs,I will take my dogs every time !!!;)

Not a lot of loyal people left out there. You're right about that.
 
When I think, it's very rare that I see people hiking with Pits, Rotties etc, my dog lives for the great outdoors just the same as I do. If I was stuck in some suburban backyard or concrete jungle then I'd imagine I'd be in a pretty bad mood so maybe that's where the problem and answer lies.....give your dog plenty of streams, mountains, forests and fresh air and she will be as happy and loving as mine !
 
Great looking dog pitdog!

As I have said I love the Bully breeds! I have had four and they were all welcomed into our home and made part of the family! They were "fur Kids". They were absolutely great with my kids and family/friends! Two of these dogs were rescues and I am amazed at how they rebounded physically and mentally!

I just love these dogs!

As has been said IF you ever get into it with a dog or multiple dogs minds set is everything! You HAVE TO BE THE ALPHA MALE, no matter what! You have to become very aggressive and dominant! If you can get them off their feet you have a BIG advantage. Remember you out weight them (unless its a really big dog or you are really small) and have the use of arms and legs. The dogs only weapon is really its mouth!

Tom
 
very good looking dog pitdog. i love dogs and wish i had one right now.

i think the original topic of this thread has gotten lost, but it's probably for good reason. it's mostly opinion based and, as i always say, opinions are like bungholes, everyone has em.

i do think this has been a productive thread though. i would actually like to thank the mods of knifeforums for letting it go on. other forums will shut something like this down as quick as a monkey going for a cupcake. thanks again for one of (if not the best) forums around.

coleman d
 
coleman d,
While I do agree with you I think you have the wrong forum...... :D

This is Blade Forums......


Tom
 
I had a rottweiler for a while. He was only a pup and severly underweight as I got him from a shelter where he was under fed and sick for a while. I fed him right and took care of him and he grew to 140 pounds as a puppy. That dog could pull me around and would rip most people or dogs apart if he wanted too. Many people were afraid of him just because of his size. However, this dog was a sweatheart. Anyways, my point is if you raise them right, they are usually very friendly.

All pictures are of the dog when he was only 110 pounds, he grew to 140.
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Dang, this has been a reasonable and enlightening conversation! ;) Dog
discussions, especially when you throw in breeds like rotts and pits,
seem to escalate into something bad all too often. If you think
Sebenza/Strider/Busse fans get ugly when their favorite is unfairly
bashed, hold on (!) when someone starts making generalizations about
an entire breed and then applying it to one individual's family
(member) pet.



The "dog just snapped one day" theory

I agree that it usually doesn't happen *suddenly* with domestic
breeds. If you're observant, you can sometimes see it happen over
time. By this, I don't mean a mentally healthy who simply develops a
problem due to environment, but one who has an accelerated
neurological decline. I've seen some purebreds (honestly, only two
shepherds and one border collie) who truly suffered a physiological
mental breakdown. The border collie was mine - Maria.

I had her and her brother (who is still with us) from the age of eight
weeks. Her brother was the dominant. She had been through obedience
classes. She was an inside/outside dog. Lots of play - lots of walks.
She was always a bit skittish at initial interaction. Once you got
past the greeting, she would snuggle up on the floor for a night of
tv. ;)

At about five years old she began to get a little more strange:
aggressively barking/growling at things that weren't there. Frequently
not recognizing who I was - especially at night when it was time to
come in. I've got a lot of time invested in coaxing her to me in the
dark backyard. :)

Her vision was fine. We talked to vets, both professionally and my
friends - I used to work with several. Things progressed. We had her
with an animal behaviorist in our home. A variety of blood tests were
conducted and multiple medications were tried.

Things got worse. It came to a head at 7 yrs old when she began
attacking (not pack hierarchy testing - attacking) her brother one
afternoon. The same day she became hyper-fearful of the entire family.
After an hour long discussion with her vet, we came to the decision to
euthanize her. She was mentally suffering. All evidence seemed to
point to a neurological issue.

I cried like a baby and held her 'til the end.

I've seen it happen but only with the ultra-intelligent breeds. Something
about the longterm pursuit for selective intelligence? I don't know...

The other kind of owner-attacks aren't from "snapping" but from pack
drive. Domestic dogs have been bred to the point that many of the pack
survival traits of wild canids are no longer present. One of those
traits are the "pack survival drive" as it relates to injury of the
Alpha leader.

A wild canid (NOT necessarily feral dogs but true wild species) will always
have the fittest as the Alpha - the survival of the pack depends on it.
When the alpha is too old/weak, they are "attacked" by a stronger male to
establish dominance and leadership of the group. Sometimes the old alpha
gets to stay. Sometimes they are driven off. Sometimes they are, already in
a weakened/aged state, too injured from the dominance attack and succumb
to their injuries or inability to hunt alone.

Domestic dogs, for lack of a better phrase, remain in a "puppy stage"
and never lose that dependence on the owner. Yes, the owner is alpha,
but while the dog takes many of the pack responsibilities of a wild
canid group, they never reach the stage of hierarchy that they feel
like they can challenge dominance. Oh, I guess we see that sometimes
with social canine/owner interaction when you've got a submissive
owner, but I'm following a different train of thought here.

That train of thought being people who keep canids of genetic stock
whom are not the product of several thousand years of domestication.
Specifically, those who keep wolves or wolf/dog hybrids.

There have been multiple cases of owners being gravely injured by kept
wolves or wolf/hybrids. The scenario plays out like this: the canids
are mature, but still submissive to the dominant alpha keeper/owner. One
day the owner comes in, say, with a limp. The pack instinct of these
magnificent animals directs the strongest (sometimes joined in by
other members in agreement) to attack the alpha, establishing a new,
more healthy alpha. The obvious downside is when you look at something
like the bite strength of a timber wolf. The ft/lbs of a pit are
legendary but, if memory serves, it pales to the pressure of a wolf.
Even so, this is somewhat predictable behavior. When you mix in the hodge
podge genetic stock of a selectively bred canine with the evolutionary
stock of a wolf, the behavior is less predictable.

The media, and folk in general, like to call this "snapping." It's not
snapping... It's pack survival.

They may, superficially, look similar, but wolves and domestic dogs
are *very* different animals.

Sorry for the tangent. :o
 
My thoughts on pits:
Don't ban them. Just like I don't want guns banned, pits shouldn't be either. They are, however, not for everyone.

I am a dog discriminator: a pit or rot at a dog park makes me more uneasy than other dogs. Why? Cuz there are more attacks involving them. ??? I don't care for banning them though, because it isn't important WHY this is, I just care that it is. Whether or not all pits would be sweet if they didn't have the gang banger owners (the only owners I see around here) is immaterial to me: just as someone who owns a Steyr AUG raises my eyebrows (first time I saw one was the original Die Hard, and try as I might, I can only see it as a bad guy gun, even though I think it looks really cool), a pit puts me on guard. And I have met nice ones. I just think that they require more caution.

Pound for pound, they are more powerful than a lot of other dogs. Of course, this may be because I've owned mostly goldens, labs, and now, a newf! The Golden DID bite me a few times during play, where I ran away and activated prey instinct- but it wasn't anything I blamed him for, and there was no harm done. However, I would not ever engage in the same behavior with a pit (and doubt I could say the same thing about a bite)- nor would I engage in the same ridiculous wrestling matches I do with my newf (who sometimes lifts a paw and socks me in the nose, making it bleed anyhow :D)

Finally, I suppose the thing about pits is the same thing about automatic knives/guns, and all "dangerous" instruments: people, in today's day and age (and by this I also mean people who are the most "advanced", i.e., live in cities), are scared of things that happen quickly that create a big change. Automatic knives open fast = scary. I just got a Kershaw Centofante, and my friend is scared of it's 2.2 inch glory- b/c it is assisted open. People are scared of guns that fire too fast, and of irreplaceable/irreversible damage done in a short period of time. Golden retriever's mostly CAN'T do this with one bite, whereas a pit can. People are scared of fast cars if they aren't intrigued. Again, I think simply because the pit bull CAN cause a lot of harm in a little amount of time, people focus on this as inherently terrifying, just as they do with everything else. Remember pit owners: you are in good company with owners of any "scary" blade, "assault rifle" (an erroneous term) owners, and, for the English, those who own cheap imitation samurai swords.;)
Again, my 2 cents, and who knows what my 2 cents are worth at bladeforums exchange rates :D.
Zero
 
The Golden DID bite me a few times during play, where I ran away and activated prey instinct- but it wasn't anything I blamed him for, and there was no harm done. However, I would not ever engage in the same behavior with a pit (and doubt I could say the same thing about a bite)- nor would I engage in the same ridiculous wrestling matches I do with my newf (who sometimes lifts a paw and socks me in the nose, making it bleed anyhow :D)

Zero

Funny cause none of my pits have ever bitten me, even in play.
And we play and wrestle a lot.
 
The dogs only weapon is really its mouth!

Tom

We lived in the south Bronx, top floor of the building. I was at work, my wife was home with the baby -- and our Boxer. Noise on the roof, that turned out to be a burglar trying to break into the dumbwaiter shaft.

My wife sent the dog up the stairs and called the police. By the time they arrived and she went up to the roof with them, the dog had the burglar pinned to the dumbwaiter, and had torn his jacket, shirt, and chest with his paws.

The man was VERY pleased to see the police.
 
We lived in the south Bronx, top floor of the building. I was at work, my wife was home with the baby -- and our Boxer. Noise on the roof, that turned out to be a burglar trying to break into the dumbwaiter shaft.

My wife sent the dog up the stairs and called the police. By the time they arrived and she went up to the roof with them, the dog had the burglar pinned to the dumbwaiter, and had torn his jacket, shirt, and chest with his paws.

The man was VERY pleased to see the police.

Interesting! I just have never seen it! IF a dog gets up on its back legs to attack you, remember that he has just opened his tender underside to your knees. USE THEM WITH EFFECT!

I have also never been bitten by one of MY dogs. I think this is because I strongly discourage being "mouthed" or bitting from a VERY young age!

Tom
 
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