Pit Bull mauling and killing in California

[Esav Benyamin]

This has been a good thread all along, on all sides of the argument, but I was wondering when the K9 guys would join in

 

[Zombie Zeke]

No, it's not all training, regardless of breed or even regardless of individual animal. People have raised children in happy, productive homes, and seen them go wildly astray. It's a rough world out there ... but I guarantee that anyone taking the time we did to live with our dogs would see it the moment they began to go wrong.

Millions of people, millions of animals, even a minuscule percentage can be a disaster. But we need to understand the concept of perspective.

I disagree with the assertation that there is some perspective between raising children and training dogs. A child can have outside factors come into play and is a thousand fold smarter than a dog. Dogs aren't forming their own opinions relevant to a societal standard, they simply do as conditioned. I agree with your statement on anecdotal evidence though and that is a good point.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

What I meant about perspective is understanding that while a dog attack is a disaster, it is uncommon enough that we don't want to totally reorganize our lives around the possibility.

Threat analysis has two components: degree and frequency. Some threats are common, but not very harmful, like stubbing a toe. Some are more common, but still not very harmful, like paper cuts among clerks folding letters into envelopes. Others are extremely rare but could be fatal if ignored: fire, criminal assault, dog attacks. It pays to be aware of the possibility of these, and to have some training in how to counter them, but it doesn't pay to obsess over them or to exaggerate the overall threat in your mind.

 

[coletrane811]

YOU think I'M naive? Read what I wrote. Pistols aren't dangerous. Their owners may be. Dogs are inherently dangerous. They can go off and attack someone without their owner directing them to do it.

I think I misread or misunderstood your saying. Sorry about that. Plus I think I had a few coldies in me!! I guess I need to learn to read.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

It has been a busy thread which makes it easy to mash a couple of posts together when we're trying to catch up.

 

[coletrane811]

When I first spotted this post I didn't want to get into it as it always ends up with people coming coming out with more Bullsh*t, however if people campaign to ban Pitbulls then once they are gone my dog might be next on the list and where will it end ?
I could train more or less any dog to be a killer if I had the stupidity to do so, imagine a St Bernard trained to kill ( see what the one in Cujo could do ? ) try and stop one of them !!!
It wouldn't be hard to get a Jack Russell to rip off some babies face !!!!
While we are talking about this new safe world with no Pitbulls, Rotties, Ridgebacks etc let's also ban all guns and heaven forbid ban the carry of knives ....have you seen the mess they can make of people !!!!!
Let us also ban alcohol, we don't want to risk idiots drink driving and mowing someone down !!!
Let us also limit the top speed of cars to a sensible 60 Kmh, why would we need to go faster than that, it can be dangerous.
Let's censor all films as they can promote violence, this would obviously also apply to video games !!!!
Fireworks......etc....etc.....what a great new world eh !!!!

PLEASE tell me that you're not implying that I'm for banning any breed of dog. That's obsurd. There wasn't one word in any post where I've even mentioned the word ban. I am simply stating that pitbulls (along with a MULTITUDE of other dogs) are dangerous breeds and I wouldn't trust them around my daughter. That's completely my opinion and I don't care if you or anyone else agrees. Proof is in the pudding, look at the statistics. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you weren't, I'm sorry for the confusion.

 

[ADD]

A few random thoughts:

A child (around toddler size) often has an irregular gait. This motion can mimic wounded prey and can bring out the predator (primal) instinct in a dog. Even if this is just "play nipping" from generations of being domesticated, that is what is going on.

Another technique to use if a canine is on another dog or person is to grab both hind legs and swing the dog in a circle. Because of the centrifugal force generated the animal can not turn it's head to attack you. Once you are done swinging, fling the dog which will leave him disoriented and buy you some time to leave the area.

A lot here has been said about seeing a dog(s) coming and being prepared. But I would venture to guess a lot of dog attacks happen when the animal is surprised by a human venturing in "their" territory without previous knowledge. Such as a meter man on foot turning a corner on a backyard and both animal and human are put in fight/flight mode. If the animal lunges with jaws open anything at your disposal can be used (including your weak side forearm) to blunt the initial bite. A simple ballpoint pen to the eye at this point is a good and readily available weapon.

 

[Tom Krein]

PLEASE tell me that you're not implying that I'm for banning any breed of dog. That's obsurd. There wasn't one word in any post where I've even mentioned the word ban. I am simply stating that pitbulls (along with a MULTITUDE of other dogs) are dangerous breeds and I wouldn't trust them around my daughter. That's completely my opinion and I don't care if you or anyone else agrees. Proof is in the pudding, look at the statistics. Please don't put words in my mouth. If you weren't, I'm sorry for the confusion.

I don't think he mentioned you, but it has been recommended in this thread!

Me personally, I don't trust my kids around ANYONE elses dog! I don't care what kind it is or its size! Kids are much closer to face level on all dogs and it seems like they want to give them a hug around the neck. Not the best idea on ANY strange dog.

Part of the problem is what ADD stated people/dogs surprising each other. I would like to suggest that behavior by humans (especially kids) that don't know how to handle dogs is responsible for some of this also.....

Just knowing how to handle/treat dogs, knowing how they think and being able to read their body language will go a LONG way towards keeping you and your family out of harms way.

I have tought my kids from an early age how to treat/handle strange dogs. They ALWAYS have to ask permision from the owner and then they know NOT to get all up in a strange dogs face.

Its good information to pass on to your kids/family!

Tom

 

[Emanuel]

Thanks to everyone that has supported pitbulls in this thread. Great comments.

This is an unfairly vilified breed, just like in decades past was the German Shepherd, Dobherman and Rottweiler, and others. To some extent they still are.

It seems obvious that the problem people have with pitbulls only happened over the last few years, which makes it clear that it’s not the breed but a combination of this breed being chosen over others to be abused by thugs, anti-dog hysteria, and as has already been well mentioned, people often just have no clue what a pitbull looks like and any dog they don’t like is called a pitbull.

These dogs were obviously very loved and loving wonderful pets in the first half of the 20th century with many famous examples. What happened? Suddenly in the coarse of a few decades this breed’s genetics turned them into horrific monsters?

Makes more sense that this dog has been chosen more often to be abused lately.

It is heart breaking, frustrating and unbelievably angering to someone like me who not only owns them but is involved in pitbull rescue.

All the pitbulls I have seen were great dogs, and I have seen tons of these dogs. Even the ones that were abused and therefore had behaviour problems were easily retrained to become nice pets.

One of my own pitbulls was heavily abused before I got her. She was thin like a skeleton, and had wounds to her head. She was scared of any move I would make. But with love and guidance she is now a perfectly normal pet dog and was a REALLY great "mother" or nanny to a couple of tiny kittens we found a year ago.

Regarding the OP, learn about the alpha mentality of all dogs. That’s the best way to learn how to effectively stop an attack before it even starts.

Someone earlier mentioned Cesar Milan and his show, “The Dog Whisperer”. Great show and great guy. I’m a HUGE fan of his, I never miss his show.
If you want to learn the truth about dogs in general and how to properly act with dogs then watch his show, regardless of whether you own a dog or not.

Be careful around all dogs, and maintain dominance. Firm and in control but loving too. And there is really no need to vilify any whole breed. The owners are FAR more indicative of how a dog will act than the dog itself.

 

[Cutshaw]

We have been breeding canines for centuries to produce (somewhat) reliable physical and behavioral traits. There are good and bad seeds in every breed line - just like any family. Research AKC, etc. to determine if a breed's expected traits mesh with your environment. For what it's worth, "mutts" typically benefit from hybrid vigour with fewer health problems than typically associated with a closed genetic pool from a purebred.

The other factors effecting a dogs behavior is the result of their own experiences - how they've been raised and how they're contained. Nearly any canine has a greater tendency to be aggressive when chained all the time.

My own experiences?

Cockers are "fear-biters." No aggressive attacks but they tend to be high strung, nervous and lash out. They pee often when stressed. (yech!)

Chihuahua are one of the most protective, territorial little rats I've ever seen. Thank goodness they aren't big enough to maul someone!!

Dobies are sweethearts. Real lap dogs except when chained.

Rotts... not the brightest dogs but pretty affable and low key. They tend to only have problems with other people/animals when the dog feels they are being dominated.

Chows. The purebreds usually leave well enough alone. Think "grumpy old man down the street."

Chow-lab mixes. We had LOTS of those where I used to live. Nasty lil buggers!

Pits... usually pretty sweet to "big" people. The breed, as I understand it, was selectively bred for a "game" instinct. The "game" being to fight other animals roughly the same size and a desire to do so. They were bred to ignore many of the typical signals that are common among canines to show submission. Thus, a good "game" dog. It all depends on how those traits carried down to the particular animal.

Akitas - The absolute scariest dog I ever had to deal with.

Border Collies, German Shepherds and Standard Poodles - All were bred to be bright. VERY bright. It all works fine when they have a job. They can get kinda funky when bored. That intelligence can manifest itself in weird, neurotic ways in some examples.

Schnauzers. Downright scary lil dogs. Tend to be VERY aggressive to other dogs. Why do all old lady's call their schnauzer "Tony?" The Giant Schnauzer, luckily you don't see 'em often, are pretty intimidating.

Weinmareners. Seem to go thru "separation anxiety" with the owners. They can get pretty funky.

Huskies. Difficult to contain. The drive to "be with the pack" makes it hard on a single dog when the owner is gone.

Boxers - All around good dogs. I've got difficulty finding anything bad to say.

Newfs and Pyrenees. I love 'em. Not the brightest - not the dumbest. Tend to be "lightning phobic." (Like St Bernards and Bernese Mtn Dogs.)

Any of the above worth anything? Not to anyone but me. It's the collection of experiences I have had. Any of these breed traits may not manifest itself strongly (or at all) in every dog. The purist would probably call that dog a bad example of the breed.

All of that said, I've got zero patience with folks who don't contain/control their dog. You have GOT TO BE THE BOSS. Alpha. They are happier that way. I love dogs. I'll probably never be without one again. If you're confronted with an aggressive dog, use pepper spray, but don't count on it. I've seen several dogs sneeze the contaminant away and keep right on coming. I've never seen the effect of the big Grizzly cans - I would bet they are pretty effective.

All in all, I've got two small kids, 3 & 6 years old. Hiking trails or in a city park, they are the right size for the prey instinct to kick in (especially if the kids are running and squealing) for most canines and some other animals like a cougar.

Stay alert and prepared. CCW if you can, heavy duty spray as an alternative, and a big ol' stick as a final, last solution.

(Back to the original pit part of the thread, I've had to deal with dog fighters in some legal proceedings - I would have no problem using the "final solution" on the guys operating the fighting organizations. Reprehensible.)

 

[ADD]

Another point to consider is breeding.

What a dog or any animal was originally bred for or "Breed Standard" may have been subverted along the way. An example would be the Irish Setter. Many have read the book "Big Red" in our youth. At one time this was a great field dog for birds. It covered a lot of ground (athletic), had a good nose and was smart.

Well it became a favorite of show dog breeders and they bred the intelligence right out of the thing. I mean dumb as a box of rocks. They were line bred (taking characteristics you want to have and breeding with like dogs, often in close gene pools) for their red coats and other physical characteristics that would benefit them in the show ring. Now you were generally left with an animal that no longer (overall) resembled what it was intended for, to set or freeze a quail, grouse, pheasant, etc. so a hunter to get close to his quarry and shoot it. What was left after this this type of breeding by the show dog people was a high strung, dumb, long haired animal.

I suspect this has happened a lot to the pit breeds just not as regulated (registered). Some of these dogs are bred for fighting. The weak, non aggressive, thin necked losers are destroyed. The winners are bred with others and this gene pool trickles down to the guy down your block who got a free puppy.

 

[Morablades]

Another point to consider is breeding.

What a dog or any animal was originally bred for or "Breed Standard" may have been subverted along the way. An example would be the Irish Setter. Many have read the book "Big Red" in our youth. At one time this was a great field dog for birds. It covered a lot of ground (athletic), had a good nose and was smart.

Well it became a favorite of show dog breeders and they bred the intelligence right out of the thing. I mean dumb as a box of rocks. They were line bred (taking characteristics you want to have and breeding with like dogs, often in close gene pools) for their red coats and other physical characteristics that would benefit them in the show ring. Now you were generally left with an animal that no longer (overall) resembled what it was intended for, to set or freeze a quail, grouse, pheasant, etc. so a hunter to get close to his quarry and shoot it. What was left after this this type of breeding by the show dog people was a high strung, dumb, long haired animal.

I suspect this has happened a lot to the pit breeds just not as regulated (registered). Some of these dogs are bred for fighting. The weak, non aggressive, thin necked losers are destroyed. The winners are bred with others and this gene pool trickles down to the guy down your block who got a free puppy.

That's a good point. We have some dogs running around the city, big dogs too, and my 2 year old daughter has gotten into the habit of running up to our neighbors dogs. Of course their's are friendly. We walked out of the house one day and right when my daughter and wife make it to the bottom of the steps a medium to large size dog rushes from around the corner of the house. It stopped when it saw me. I looked right in it's eyes and they were bloodshot, scary looking. You can tell it was aggressive. It took off down the road and into the next neighborhood. I don't like to be mean to animals, but if it comes back I'll have to get aggressive myself.

 

[Stubai]

Get the pepper spray and then learn how to use it. A small .22 will work in pinch if it comes down to defending your life, but please, make use of the CCI stingers. And yes, dog owners need to learn how to keep their pets on a leash.

Esav: Have you ever been bit (even one time) by a large, heavily muscled and enraged dog like a doberman or pit bull?

 

[racer944]

I disagree with the assertation that there is some perspective between raising children and training dogs. A child can have outside factors come into play and is a thousand fold smarter than a dog. Dogs aren't forming their own opinions relevant to a societal standard, they simply do as conditioned. I agree with your statement on anecdotal evidence though and that is a good point.

I stand to disagree. Not only can my Golden (not the brightest thing, but surely one of the sweetest) develop opinions, fears, and sense societal standards, but I have seen GSDs and Berneses solve problems and are not simply "doing as conditioned"

Not trying to brag on my oh-so-special Golden, but I believe he is a fair example of a dog that was brought up correctly, even if he is afraid of the ironing board...

 

[coletrane811]

I don't think he mentioned you, but it has been recommended in this thread!

Me personally, I don't trust my kids around ANYONE elses dog! I don't care what kind it is or its size! Kids are much closer to face level on all dogs and it seems like they want to give them a hug around the neck. Not the best idea on ANY strange dog.

Part of the problem is what ADD stated people/dogs surprising each other. I would like to suggest that behavior by humans (especially kids) that don't know how to handle dogs is responsible for some of this also.....

Just knowing how to handle/treat dogs, knowing how they think and being able to read their body language will go a LONG way towards keeping you and your family out of harms way.

I have tought my kids from an early age how to treat/handle strange dogs. They ALWAYS have to ask permision from the owner and then they know NOT to get all up in a strange dogs face.

Its good information to pass on to your kids/family!

Tom

I agree 100%!! Good post. Only reason I pointed it out was because that person had quoted me when they posted.

 

[racer944]

Esav, just got a chance to read your posts, very helpful!!! Appreciate the info greatly!

 

[Morablades]

Get the pepper spray and then learn how to use it. A small .22 will work in pinch if it comes down to defending your life, but please, make use of the CCI stingers. And yes, dog owners need to learn how to keep their pets on a leash.

Esav: Have you ever been bit (even one time) by a large, heavily muscled and enraged dog like a doberman or pit bull?

If it comes to defending the life of my wife or child then pepper spray won't cut it. I've got something bigger than a .22 waiting for it.

 

[Esav Benyamin]

Esav: Have you ever been bit (even one time) by a large, heavily muscled and enraged dog like a doberman or pit bull?

I have never been bitten by any dog. I have never been attacked by a dog. There are reasons for this. One is luck, another is my understanding of dogs, and another is my own aggressiveness towards uncontrolled dogs.

 

[Morablades]

I have never been bitten by any dog. I have never been attacked by a dog. There are reasons for this. One is luck, another is my understanding of dogs, and another is my own aggressiveness towards uncontrolled dogs.

Same here. I don't want to be bitten by a dog. My father was aggressive towards the strays. He'd keep bricks lying around in various places. He didn't want them around our dogs, which were leashed, and he didn't want them around us. Whenever one showed up he would chuck a brick at it. I know it sounds mean, but they never came back.

 

[Morablades]

Even the cities are a wilderness. Have you ever seen a pack of strays. It's frightening. Their behavior is just like wolves.