Product or Prototype?

RedLynx said:
the amount of stuff being dumped on him for it, considering how small his complaint is, is also WAY over the top.
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Yeah, see, it's grown into that because we're apparently working on the second Bladeforums thread. The observable evidence is that he's not inclined to stop until he gets some kind of validation that suits whatever issue that this "award" has raised in him....as you said, "what he considers a sleight". So, it stops being about the award, and starts being about "why can't people just agree with me and acknowledge I'm right?" It therefore follows logically that it's no longer a General Knife Discussion topic and more of his own individual soapbox. Imagine, if you will, how the Bladeforums community would be if everyone did that? Isn't that why they created "Whine and Cheese"?

The OP is not being disciplined. He's not being attacked. He's not personally being criticised. His initial post (for this second thread, apparently) is taking a nominally fair question and turning it into what appears to be a personal crusade against a "wrong". If this thread is closed or moved to Whine and Cheese, will he open another one if, in his own words, the thread gets closed "before we had enough time to explore it completely"? What does he mean by "explore it completely"? Does he mean "where everyone says I'm right"? What will happen then? Will it be "Boycott KAI" time? Or, perhaps, "petition Blade Magazine" time?

Here are his discussion questions, in his own words:

"1. Is the 0454 a product? Or was it and is it still only a prototype."

Since we're all heroically defending the dictionary, let's use one:

dictionary.com
product - a thing produced by labor
prototype - the original or model on which something is based or formed
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So, a prototype is a product. It's the first one....by dictionary definition.

Moving right along:

2. "If it's only a prototype, should it have been eligible to win a "product" award?"

Whose award is it? Blade Magazine? Isn't the owner/establisher of the award the one who determines the eligibility criteria? Isn't that their prerogative, by virtue of their being the creator of the award? And if they don't have a problem with it, is that not de facto evidence that they approve of the way they are conducting it?

jac_solar said:
The award isn't really relevant to any consumers since it's not out yet - both Blade, and Kai, would probably have more to gain by giving the award to a/winning the award for a knife that's already out and available. Kai might get more sales and attention, and Blade would be talking about a knife that consumers can actually buy.
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See, this calm, reasoned, practical response is the right way to discuss this topic. The companies can do what they want, but the award's relevance is affected by the way they are doing it. Boom.....done. All those who care can make the suggestion to Blade Magazine.
 
BlackKnight86 said:
Yeah, see, it's grown into that because we're apparently working on the second Bladeforums thread. The observable evidence is that he's not inclined to stop until he gets some kind of validation that suits whatever issue that this "award" has raised in him....as you said, "what he considers a sleight". So, it stops being about the award, and starts being about "why can't people just agree with me and acknowledge I'm right?" It therefore follows logically that it's no longer a General Knife Discussion topic and more of his own individual soapbox. Imagine, if you will, how the Bladeforums community would be if everyone did that? Isn't that why they created "Whine and Cheese"?

The OP is not being disciplined. He's not being attacked. He's not personally being criticised. His initial post (for this second thread, apparently) is taking a nominally fair question and turning it into what appears to be a personal crusade against a "wrong". If this thread is closed or moved to Whine and Cheese, will he open another one if, in his own words, the thread gets closed "before we had enough time to explore it completely"? What does he mean by "explore it completely"? Does he mean "where everyone says I'm right"? What will happen then? Will it be "Boycott KAI" time? Or, perhaps, "petition Blade Magazine" time?

Here are his discussion questions, in his own words:

"1. Is the 0454 a product? Or was it and is it still only a prototype."

Since we're all heroically defending the dictionary, let's use one:



So, a prototype is a product. It's the first one....by dictionary definition.

Moving right along:

2. "If it's only a prototype, should it have been eligible to win a "product" award?"

Whose award is it? Blade Magazine? Isn't the owner/establisher of the award the one who determines the eligibility criteria? Isn't that their prerogative, by virtue of their being the creator of the award? And if they don't have a problem with it, is that not de facto evidence that they approve of the way they are conducting it?



See, this calm, reasoned, practical response is the right way to discuss this topic. The companies can do what they want, but the award's relevance is affected by the way they are doing it. Boom.....done. All those who care can make the suggestion to Blade Magazine.
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You're preaching to the choir. I don't really care about whatever this award (I don't even care about what the award isn't.)
Like I said before, I think his thread is based on misunderstanding what award they actually got (I seem to remember someone identifying the correct award and taking away the ambiguity, I don't remember or care enough to look back through the thread).

Regardless whatever reason there may be for the thread turning into... whatever it's turning into... OP has been largely silent for awhile and when he's posted the last few times it's been pretty reasonable I'd say. I'm not defending him, just stating what I see.

I agree, BLADE can determine whatever criteria they want.

The OP disagrees. People disagree with his disagreement. That's really all there needs to be to it.
 
Not sure I understand the premise of this discussion...

Is it concern over the criteria and eligibility of the "Knife of the Year" categories? As I understand it, those are established by Blade Magazine / F+W Media (or whoever organizes the show and its respective awards programs). I would also expect that they are the ones enforcing any of those eligibility requirements for entries into the contest.

Or is the concern over ZT announcing and demo'ing a knife at the show before it starts shipping to customers? I recall Thomas posting an explanation of this before. In short, Blade Show is an opportunity for the manufacturers to get an audience with dealers/vendors to show off their wares and get things lined up for future orders. I believe this relationship is strictly between the manufacturer and the dealer/vendor/retailer/etc., so unless they (the dealers) have an issue with seeing prototypes, that's really nobody else's concern how the two companies decide to do business with each other. I suppose for publicly owned businesses, shareholders could have a say, but that is a bit of a stretch.

Or is the concern over the specific award the ZT 0454 received? It looks like that was the "Overall Knife of the Year" award (link to Blade Magazine post), not the "Most Innovative Product of the Year" (no such award exists, although there were a couple for "Most Innovative American/Imported Design"). My understanding is that the "Overall Knife of the Year" is a peer-voted award, so it isn't even the organizers of the event that decide it.
 
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flarp said:
In short, Blade Show is an opportunity for the manufacturers to get an audience with dealers/vendors to show off their wares and get things lined up for future orders.
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The sooner people understand this, the sooner this discussion will be "completely explored" :thumbup:
 
bld522 said:
Or what? :confused:

Anyway, IIRC, the name of the award is "The 2013 Most Innovative Product of the Year". Please correct me if I'm mistaken.
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You did not recall correctly. Several people have pointed out politely that you're were mistaken (as well as some less politely), yet you have yet to address this.

The correct name of the award you were attempting to discuss is, and I am quoting from the linked page at the Blade Show site, "•Overall Knife Of The Year®: Zero Tolerance 0454"

http://www.blademag.com/hunting-knives/blade-show-names-top-knives

Again, looking at the correct name of the award, your primary point is moot.

Also, if I may point out, this your question would be better posed after Blade Show 2014, should ZT not ship the ZT 0454.
 
I interpret OP's point as BLADE giving an award to a production company that is not delivering THE product is; not fair for other competitors. While other company could in fact benefits from recognition for their product going to be released. But then it comes back to the point of whether such nominated company could deliver, in this case ZT(or CRK/BM..etc) here. hence this mess of arguments.

Lets pretend this scenario. this year BLADE Chris Reeve Knives is bringing a Flipper with bearing prototype to the show, and won the award. but whether or not CRK is producing and delivering the actual knife in the near future is unknown. what makes CRK now? It left the crowd craving for a superb product, but no where to be found. scenario done.

Then comes along the Chinese exploiters, Which they copy the prototype and sells it. Who gets hurts in the grand scheme? the guy originally comes up with the knife prototype. You bring such a fine and sweet knife but no where to be found you bet there is going to be demands for it. However when it pops up in such limited number with sky high secondary market price tag on it you left the fan no choice, but turn to the Chinese counterfeits. take ZT 0777, ZT 0888 for example.

I love ZT 0454 to death and can't wait to get my hand on to one, but knowing it is a limited run I doubt I will get one with my luck. And I heck as hell won't pay four digits secondary market price for it. Now, Like I mention beforehand, I bought a Chinese ZT0454(Forgive me BF). And it was so well made it probably came close to 95% of the original prototype spec, except for the steel. perfect flip actions, perfect FF, exact CF handle, TI liner, lock bar with steel insert and Ceramic ball, runs on bearing, with exact TI pocket clip, along with full SS backspacer, S35VN. All of that for fraction of the MSRP.

Tell me, as a potential costumer of your products what do you bring to the table? I love to fork out $500 for your knives but I just can't, It is not there. I turn to the second best there is instead. Same reason why companies outsource to foreign country, It is not the best but It's Cheap, Fast, and overall Good.

I hope USA companies bring a change to the exploitations and we sure as burrito won't mind paying more for qualities. Cheers BF.
 
I swear, it's like BlackKnight86 took a peek in my head and wrote what I was thinking. I'm not taking sides in this matter, aside from what is common sense, common knowledge, and linear logical thinking.

Ironcore said:
I interpret OP's point as BLADE giving an award to a production company that is not delivering THE product is; not fair for other competitors. While other company could in fact benefits from recognition for their product going to be released. But then it comes back to the point of whether such nominated company could deliver, in this case ZT(or CRK/BM..etc) here. hence this mess of arguments.

Lets pretend this scenario. this year BLADE Chris Reeve Knives is bringing a Flipper with bearing prototype to the show, and won the award. but whether or not CRK is producing and delivering the actual knife in the near future is unknown. what makes CRK now? It left the crowd craving for a superb product, but no where to be found. scenario done.

Then comes along the Chinese exploiters, Which they copy the prototype and sells it. Who gets hurts in the grand scheme? the guy originally comes up with the knife prototype. You bring such a fine and sweet knife but no where to be found you bet there is going to be demands for it. However when it pops up in such limited number with sky high secondary market price tag on it you left the fan no choice, but turn to the Chinese counterfeits. take ZT 0777, ZT 0888 for example.

I love ZT 0454 to death and can't wait to get my hand on to one, but knowing it is a limited run I doubt I will get one with my luck. And I heck as hell won't pay four digits secondary market price for it. Now, Like I mention beforehand, I bought a Chinese ZT0454(Forgive me BF). And it was so well made it probably came close to 95% of the original prototype spec, except for the steel. perfect flip actions, perfect FF, exact CF handle, TI liner, lock bar with steel insert and Ceramic ball, runs on bearing, with exact TI pocket clip, along with full SS backspacer, S35VN. All of that for fraction of the MSRP.

Tell me, as a potential costumer of your products what do you bring to the table? I love to fork out $500 for your knives but I just can't, It is not there. I turn to the second best there is instead. Same reason why companies outsource to foreign country, It is not the best but It's Cheap, Fast, and overall Good.

I hope USA companies bring a change to the exploitations and we sure as burrito won't mind paying more for qualities. Cheers BF.
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If you don't understand the implications of buying counterfeit items, please don't minimize and try to justify the issue for the masses. Having the real thing is certainly not the same as having a countefeit, nor is it second best by any stretch of the imagination. There are a lot of watches, knives, pens and other things I'd love to have. But if I cannot afford them then I can't afford them. The issue with offshore production of American goods is one thing, and the counterfeiting of said American goods is another. I can BS on the 95% quality of the original. By your logic, if any company makes something you love but can't afford, then a counterfeit is alright? It doesn't matter if the price point can be justified by time sopent on the production, materials, parts, heat treating, sourcing material costs, labor, etc. Am I understanding you so far?
BTW: Ironcore, I'd bet you that the knockoff you have does not have S35VN. It's more than likely good old 440C or possibly some sort of D2, but S35VN, I highly doubt.
 
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As ever, KAI fans remain my biggest impediment to truly embracing the company.

I think the OP has a bit of a point, I just think it's been significantly overstated. I suppose it bothers me in a very vague, academic kind of way, but not enough to really complain about.
 
Insipid Moniker said:
As ever, KAI fans remain my biggest impediment to truly embracing the company.

I think the OP has a bit of a point, I just think it's been significantly overstated. I suppose it bothers me in a very vague, academic kind of way, but not enough to really complain about.
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Many of us strong supports of Kai are nice, reasonable people, I swear. We could be your neighbor, your coworker... you friend. We could be anywhere and everywhere.... we're just not always super vocal about it. ;)
 
RedLynx said:
Many of us strong supports of Kai are nice, reasonable people, I swear. We could be your neighbor, your coworker... you friend. We could be anywhere and everywhere.... we're just not always super vocal about it. ;)
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That's true. I should have said a vocal minority of fans.
 
Bunch of butthurt little girls here just because you're not smart enough to actually FIND the limited editions. I was able to get 2 Tilts, and 2 0777M390's (one being DLC) without pre orders. As for them winning knife of the year, it takes a lot of time to machine parts, plus the have other knives coming out before the 0454. I don't think you guys realize just how long it takes to make the LE knives. If you don't like it, more for us to buy!
 
mr_anderson said:
Bunch of butthurt little girls here just because you're not smart enough to actually FIND the limited editions. I was able to get 2 Tilts, and 2 0777M390's (one being DLC) without pre orders. As for them winning knife of the year, it takes a lot of time to machine parts, plus the have other knives coming out before the 0454. I don't think you guys realize just how long it takes to make the LE knives. If you don't like it, more for us to buy!
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Mr. Anderson! Welcome back.... we missed you.
 
I'll just let some of you simmer on this.

ZT

2006 - Zero Tolerance M.U.D.D. Most Innovative American Made Design
2011 - Zero Tolerance 0777 – Overall Knife of the Year
2011 - Zero Tolerance 0560 – Collaboration (Hinderer) of the Year
2012 - Zero Tolerance 0888 - Overall Knife of the Year
2013 - Zero tolerance 0454 - Overall Knife of the Year

Kershaw

1985 – Kershaw old-world-style dagger – Imported Design
1986 - Kershaw Model Survival Knife – Imported Knife of the Year
1998 - Kershaw Random Task – American made knife of the Year
1999 - Kershaw Black Out – Best Buy of the Year
2001 - Kershaw Black Chive – American Made knife of the Year
2002 - Kershaw Rainbow Leek – Overall Knife of the Year
2003 - Kershaw Carabiner Tool – Most Innovative Import
2005 - Kershaw Offset – Overall Knife of the Year
2005 - Kershaw/Spyderco Spyker – Collaboration of the Year
2005 - Kershaw E.T. – Most Innovative American Made
2006 - Kershaw Zero Tolerance M.U.D.D – Most Innovative American Made
2006 - Kershaw, Ken Onion and Strider Knives Publishers Award
2007 - Kershaw Tyrade – Overall Knife of the Year
2007 - Kershaw R.A.M. – Most Innovative American Made
2009 - Kershaw SpeedForm – American Made Knife of the Year
2010 - Kershaw Tilt – American Made knife of the Year
2012 - Kershaw Cryo – Best Buy of the Year


Shun

2003 - Shun Santoku Kitchen Knife of the Year
2005 - Shun Classic Chef Knife – Kitchen Knife of the Year
2006 - Shun SG0405 – Kitchen Knife of the Year
2007 - Shun Kaji – Kitchen Knife of the Year
2008 - Shun Cook’s knife – Kitchen Knife of the Year
2010 - Shun Premier – Kitchen Knife of the Year
2011 - Shun Fuji Chef’s Knife – Kitchen Knife of the Year
2012 - Shun Taiyo – Kitchen Knife of the Year
 
mr_anderson said:
Bunch of butthurt little girls here just because you're not smart enough to actually FIND the limited editions. I was able to get 2 Tilts, and 2 0777M390's (one being DLC) without pre orders. As for them winning knife of the year, it takes a lot of time to machine parts, plus the have other knives coming out before the 0454. I don't think you guys realize just how long it takes to make the LE knives. If you don't like it, more for us to buy!
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That is the OP's point.
The award was given one year ago and is still not available in any form.
I don't know how long it takes to make a knife but it seems like ONE WHOLE YEAR is a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't take that long to machine parts.
 
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Do you have any idea how many OTHER LE knives came out between then and now? 0777, 0777M390, 0777M390DLC, 0600, 0888CB, 0888MAX, 0888M390 and that's along with regular production models. The 0888's handle probably take at least a few hours EACH. Machining like that takes a lot more time than people think. I know because my dad is a tool and die maker.

cncpro11 said:
That is the OP's point.
The award was given one year ago and is still not available in any form.
I don't know how long it takes to make a knife but it seems like ONE WHOLE YEAR is a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't take that long to machine parts.
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cncpro11 said:
That is the OP's point.
The award was given one year ago and is still not available in any form.
I don't know how long it takes to make a knife but it seems like ONE WHOLE YEAR is a reasonable amount of time. It doesn't take that long to machine parts.
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It has actually not been "ONE WHOLE YEAR" yet.

mr_anderson said:
Do you have any idea how many OTHER LE knives came out between then and now? 0777, 0777M390, 0777M390DLC, 0600, 0888CB, 0888MAX, 0888M390 and that's along with regular production models. The 0888's handle probably take at least a few hours EACH. Machining like that takes a lot more time than people think. I know because my dad is a tool and die maker.
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Not to mention the amount of time it takes to cut the steel for the three piece composite blades. One of the 0454's blades probably takes closer to the time it takes to cut 3 standard blades.
 
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