Production Knives with High HRC

[Cosmodragoon]

No. They copy designs. They confused buyers by artificially inflating there hrc to sell knives. They confused buyers by saying they didn't copy this design when they did. The company has a long standing history of copying designs, trademarks, patents.

It is d2. There is no different version of d2 that's better. They purposely raised the hrc without giving it a better heat treatment. To sell to unsuspecting market.

You could get an Ontario rat in Aus8 which has a better heat treatment and cutting performance at that price.

Any knife should open and cut.

I hope you see that they will do anything to sell there crap in devious ways.

This is a whole lot of hate but did you actually refute anything I said?

Now, I might have been wrong to use the word "version". How about "rendition"? How about "treatment" or "processing"? Whatever you call it, the overall performance is exactly what I and others have said it is. For under $30, the FH11 is a very good knife. I don't have a Rat but I do have a Ka-Bar Dozier in AUS-8 and the FH11 edge lasts a lot longer.

What do you mean when you say "any knife should open and cut"? Were you trying to dismiss my comments about the FH11 being good at normal EDC cutting tasks or having a good action or a solid lock-up? Cutting seems to be at issue here. Surely, you wouldn't say that action or lock-up are unimportant qualities or that some knives are better than others. I only own the one FH11 but I'm not alone in finding the flipping action, the detent, and the sturdy lock-up when open exceptional. Ganzo did a good job on those things. I don't suppose they can get any credit here?

Of course, the FH11 is by no means perfect. Like a lot of knives in this price range, the scales had some sharp edges. Luckily, that is easy to solve with an emery board or sand paper. I also found that the points at the base of the handle caused hot spots for me. This could be rounded down but you have to be careful. Sanding too much off will expose the point when closed. When I get a new knife, I like to immediately take it apart for inspection and any of that kind of work. I can tell you that the internals on the FH11 looked good. They were cleaner from the factory than the last new Kershaw I got (a Fraxion) but not nearly as clean as the Civivis.

I'm looking forward to the new FH41, which looks to have a much smoother, more rounded handle shape.

As far as some of your points on designs and intellectual property, I like Kevin Cleary's take on some of these issue. Feel free to enjoy the following video:

 

[d00mtr33]

S

So glad you mentioned them... I was trying to remember that name, because someone was telling me that they did some testing on m390 at high rc and it was a top performer.

Off to find videos!

There's a Russian channel from a guy called Ruslan Kiyasov. He does a bunch of ripe cutting and tested a lot if Cultrotech. Their midtechs at 63hrc and especially their custom at 64.5 blew all other knives away. We're talking 2 to 3 times as many cuts per inch as Spyderco, Benchmade and ZT in m390 class steels. I think a lot of his videos have subtitles, check them out.

 

[John_0917]

I think the hardest production model you’re going to find currently is a Maxamet Spyderco model, I have seen them tested at 70...HAP40, ZDP, Rex45 will all be in the mid 60s, S110V and some high carbons (like VToku and some 1095) will be up at that level as well.

 

[Joshua25]

I throw the Ruike P801 into my pocket every so often. You can get it for right around $30, comes in 14C28N. I swear it flips as well as a ZT if not better and slices well.

Can we please not make this a thread about Ganzo?

Love my ruike, but I find their 14c28n to be a bit soft

 

[Joshua25]

This is a whole lot of hate but did you actually refute anything I said?

Now, I might have been wrong to use the word "version". How about "rendition"? How about "treatment" or "processing"? Whatever you call it, the overall performance is exactly what I and others have said it is. For under $30, the FH11 is a very good knife. I don't have a Rat but I do have a Ka-Bar Dozier in AUS-8 and the FH11 edge lasts a lot longer.

What do you mean when you say "any knife should open and cut"? Were you trying to dismiss my comments about the FH11 being good at normal EDC cutting tasks or having a good action or a solid lock-up? Cutting seems to be at issue here. Surely, you wouldn't say that action or lock-up are unimportant qualities or that some knives are better than others. I only own the one FH11 but I'm not alone in finding the flipping action, the detent, and the sturdy lock-up when open exceptional. Ganzo did a good job on those things. I don't suppose they can get any credit here?

Of course, the FH11 is by no means perfect. Like a lot of knives in this price range, the scales had some sharp edges. Luckily, that is easy to solve with an emery board or sand paper. I also found that the points at the base of the handle caused hot spots for me. This could be rounded down but you have to be careful. Sanding too much off will expose the point when closed. When I get a new knife, I like to immediately take it apart for inspection and any of that kind of work. I can tell you that the internals on the FH11 looked good. They were cleaner from the factory than the last new Kershaw I got (a Fraxion) but not nearly as clean as the Civivis.

I'm looking forward to the new FH41, which looks to have a much smoother, more rounded handle shape.

As far as some of your points on designs and intellectual property, I like Kevin Cleary's take on some of these issue. Feel free to enjoy the following video:

I know I'm not the person you replied to, but I will have to watch the video by Kevin. Nothing but respect for Cleary and his channel, as a fellow canadian and knife lover, I'm interested in his take.

Also glad to hear of someone else who knows what the fh41 is! I have one arriving next month, but I haven't seen anyone else talking about that model. Searched reddit to see if it was mentioned, but nothing. Love the blade shape and handle on the fh41, at least from the pictures.

 

[David Richardson]

There's a Russian channel from a guy called Ruslan Kiyasov. He does a bunch of ripe cutting and tested a lot if Cultrotech. Their midtechs at 63hrc and especially their custom at 64.5 blew all other knives away. We're talking 2 to 3 times as many cuts per inch as Spyderco, Benchmade and ZT in m390 class steels. I think a lot of his videos have subtitles, check them out.

Just did a quick search. The two I found for sale new were $1700 and $4300. I won't be checking out their M390. Claimed hardness is 62. The one Spyderco M390 test I've seen is 59.6. When you allow for margin of error, they could be close or not so close.

 

[Mo2]

Just did a quick search. The two I found for sale new were $1700 and $4300. I won't be checking out their M390. Claimed hardness is 62. The one Spyderco M390 test I've seen is 59.6. When you allow for margin of error, they could be close or not so close.

Lol, not a chance. Plus as said in this whole thread, hrc means nothing when you have a heat treatment that optimizes the steel for performance.

Also know that the steps after 60hrc are Trippled. It's a sliding scale. The difference between 57-59 is small. The difference between 60-62 is a huge leap. Tripled at each point. Another one of those things I've learned from the bladeforums blacksmith section. If I can find the thread I'll post it.

Here's a good read on hrc is not an indication of edge retention and explains more info on the subject. https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/how-does-rockwell-hardness-affect-edge-holding.166674/

Alot of good information from very old posts here and in the archives of bladeforums. Alot to learn since alot of that info has been lost to new knife nuts in this convoluted market.

 

[Banter 247]

Mo2 is basically on track, although I want to add something that may help keep this approachable and easier to track for people with a more casual interest who are trying to sort out what could appear to be contradictory statements here.

If the heat treat process is good*,then Rockwell hardness/hrc becomes a key predictor of edge holding, along with composition and edge angle.

The full value of the first line is a big deal. So much so that the “if” should be a given. When the process is blown, high hrc = roughly analogous to cutting with shale. The conversation about edge holding is completely pointless without assuming a good process.

It’s like....

“Height isn’t a predictor of success playing the center position in the NBA, if we’re talking about suiting up a dead guy.”

But, if we’re talking about living people, then we want get to acknowledge height as a predictor.

 

[Mo2]

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/rc-hardness-explanations.751038/
Found one of the threads/quotes

I'll add a thought to what Kevin already said.
The fact that tempering reduces hardness to add toughness and resilience (impact resistance) often gives the impression that there is a negative causal nexus between the two: you add hardness and reduce toughness, so you reduce hardness and get toughness back.
The two properties are related, but one does not necessarily disrupt the other.
Other factors come into play, like the structure of the metal itself.
For example, a blade with grossly overgrown cristalline structure will remain brittle no matter how much hardness you take out of it, while a very fine-grained powder steel can maintain a very high toughness even at higher hardness levels.


PS: one thing more.
Rockwell scale is not linear. Since it is based upon the penetration of a sphere, any given step is more than proportionally "harder" than the previous one.
For example, the resistance to penetration between 20 and 30 HRc (10 HRc degrees) is 13 tonnes sq/in.
Between 30 and 40 (10 HRc degrees again) is 18.
Between 40 and 50 is 26, and so on.

And

To confuse you more - hardness measurements were originally developed to give an approximate measure of strength. This is why typical hardness conversion tables give approximate tensile strength !
Strength is needed in blades to give you an edge that won't roll over , for example.
Hardness measurements are not good for wear resistance info because they don't tell you about carbides which are a major wear resistance factor.

Some day I'll confuse you more by talking about dislocations !!

There's even more on this in other threads.

 

[Banter 247]

Mo2 if that was for me, then I’d redirect you toward Larrin and his CATRA prediction equation, which seems to hold up pretty well.

 

[Mo2]

Mo2 if that was for me, then I’d redirect you toward Larrin and his CATRA prediction equation, which seems to hold up pretty well.

Its not for you. Didn't even see your post, I was looking for the thread I mentioned about hrc not being linear.

And while Larrin has a good estimate, we have seen that's not always the case. As many of the posts I've referenced and the many tests you've seen on Steve's and outpost 76 can contradict it. Because, hrc isn't the best for predictions of edge retention. But he's certainly got some data that shows it can be close based off of standard heat treatment protocols. Going out of spec can show either improvement or decrease those results.

 

[Cosmodragoon]

Also glad to hear of someone else who knows what the fh41 is! I have one arriving next month, but I haven't seen anyone else talking about that model. Searched reddit to see if it was mentioned, but nothing. Love the blade shape and handle on the fh41, at least from the pictures.

I'd been defending the FH11 here but it is the only Ganzo I've ever owned. So I went and looked at their website for the first time. The FH41 jumped out at me. It looked like the FH11 if someone had fixed some of the things I don't like about it. So I went looking for reviews. I couldn't find anything at all. This discussion right here could be first on the web!

I ordered one the other day and the earliest shipping estimate is 5/23. I'm guessing the steel will be the same. I'm looking forward to finding out!

 

[Sonnydaze]

I've carried a Kershaw Shallot Composite in ZDP-189(64RC) for more than ten years. It's opened countless boxes, cut lots of fiberglass packing tape, zip-ties, cargo banding, etc. I've had it sharpened exactly once in all that time. And not because it was dull, just not AS sharp as it could have been. When the torsion bar broke, I sent it in for repair, because I couldn't get the pivot loose, and while there, Kershaw resharpened it as well. Looks like I'm good for another 8 or 10 years....

I ain't about to call you a liar, but I will have to look into that Kershaw...
Yes, 64 HRS and ZDP-189 is good stuff...but...TEN YEARS????????????

 

[jpm2]

I think the hardest production model you’re going to find currently is a Maxamet Spyderco model, I have seen them tested at 70...HAP40, ZDP, Rex45 will all be in the mid 60s, S110V and some high carbons (like VToku and some 1095) will be up at that level as well.

I must be unlucky, none of my spyderco hap40 or s110v is anywhere near the hardness of my spyderco rex45 or zdp189.
But yes, maxamet is hardness king for sure.

 

[John_0917]

I must be unlucky, none of my spyderco hap40 or s110v is anywhere near the hardness of my spyderco rex45 or zdp189.
But yes, maxamet is hardness king for sure.

S110V is usually 62-63, Spyderco says their HAP was supposed to be 64-66 (it can go to 68), Vtoku2 is capable of 65+ but I believe it’s usually more like 62-63 in folders and the high hardness is seen in kitchen knives.

Rex121 and HAP72 have hardness on par with Maxamet but neither are used in any production knives that I am aware of. Spyderco is rumored to have tested Rex121 and chosen to go with Maxamet instead.

It’s also known that Crucible made a S150V alloy with 15% Vanadium and other carbide formers, it supposedly was so brittle that it wasn’t practical to be used in tools.

 

[David Richardson]

Lol, not a chance. Plus as said in this whole thread, hrc means nothing when you have a heat treatment that optimizes the steel for performance.

Also know that the steps after 60hrc are Trippled. It's a sliding scale. The difference between 57-59 is small. The difference between 60-62 is a huge leap. Tripled at each point. Another one of those things I've learned from the bladeforums blacksmith section. If I can find the thread I'll post it.

I'll have to do more reading. Been researching Rockewell testing. Not nearly as straightforward as I expected. While this may be right, it seems implausible given that some steels get to 70 HRC. By tripled do you mean 3x the hardness? That means 62 HRC is 6x harder than 60 HRC and 70 HRC is 30x harder. This assumes the scale is linear after 60.

I ain't about to call you a liar, but I will have to look into that Kershaw...
Yes, 64 HRS and ZDP-189 is good stuff...but...TEN YEARS????????????

I guess it depends on what you cut and how often. I don't think I'm hard on blades. Mine don't stay sharp terribly long. Of course I also see other people's blade that look new after being used and don't get that either. Maybe just different usage.

 

[justjed]

Quoted from Sonnydaze:
I ain't about to call you a liar, but I will have to look into that Kershaw...
Yes, 64 HRS and ZDP-189 is good stuff...but...TEN YEARS????????????

Yup, ten years. Blade says Oct 2008, and I bought it in Nov, 2008. Aside from the one visit to the guy at the gun show with the wheels and rouge, the closest it got to sharpened was a couple of swipes on a ceramic stick now and then. And I am not saying that Kershaw's ZDP-189 is some miracle steel. In fact, it's supposed to be 64RC, but I am willing to bet it is a little softer than that, probably not more than 62RC. Mine hit plenty of staples in that time, and I noticed no chipping of any import. But, I am 'usually' careful how and what I cut with it. In my opinion, cutting technique can be even more important than steel choice. As is picking the right tool for the job. If I know a particular task is too much for a folder, well, I always carry a fixed blade for back-up....

 

[ShannonSteelLabs]

S110V is usually 62-63, Spyderco says their HAP was supposed to be 64-66 (it can go to 68), Vtoku2 is capable of 65+ but I believe it’s usually more like 62-63 in folders and the high hardness is seen in kitchen knives.

Rex121 and HAP72 have hardness on par with Maxamet but neither are used in any production knives that I am aware of. Spyderco is rumored to have tested Rex121 and chosen to go with Maxamet instead.

It’s also known that Crucible made a S150V alloy with 15% Vanadium and other carbide formers, it supposedly was so brittle that it wasn’t practical to be used in tools.

I've got S110V to 63-64 with Peters.
Took an excellent edge and held it for an extremely long time in my testing.
600 grit edge, buffed to break burr and stropped with 1 micron diamond emulsion. Scary sharp.

I have heard you can get it to 65, but I dont have an oven Yet. Anyone been able to get it to 65?

 

[Larrin]

I have heard you can get it to 65, but I dont have an oven Yet. Anyone been able to get it to 65?

Haven't heat treated any of mine yet. S90V gets to 66 Rc, though there is reason to believe S110V would be a little lower.

 

[David Richardson]

Just as a point of reference, the BladeBander spreadsheet has Spyderco S90V at 59.9 HRC. It has quite good edge retention per Cedric & Ada. Makes me wonder what it would do if they went a little harder.

Note that the HRC test and C & E tests were different knives. Working on getting some of the C&E knives HRC tested so we can get closer to a direct HRC to edge retention comparison.