Professional Courtesy

[Scott Hanson]

What did you do about it ?

You can see it in Facebook Groups every single day.
If you mention it to them, they block you, but they have not stopped.

This is the guy who down loaded my photo and said it was his knife and tried to sell it. He did this while he was messaging me on FB trying to sell me his junk knives. As soon as he was done messaging I went back and looked at his FB and this is what I found. I told him right away to remove it, got no response out of him. So I screen shot his post and included a higher quality image of the knife and included a blurb about this being a knife I made and that Rustam Ali was a scammer. I then messaged the photos and the blurb to all 45 of our mutual friends and within 4 hours he removed the post and I had a personal apology from him stating he made a mistake.



This other guy used one of my photos as a profile pic on his FB page. I messaged him and told him he did not have my permission to use my photo. He block me right away, so I created a FB troll page and just posted annoying comments on his page. a few months later he changed his profile pic. There was a third guy who just posted a pic photo of one of my knives on his page, I ended up doing the same thing to him.

 

[Scott Hanson]

I dont think anyone was ever going to pay the full price of your knives was so uneducated about knives to confuse your knife with a Pakistani made copy.

I use nice knives because I enjoy the functionality and beauty of a well made knife.

But you have seen other knives and drawn inspiration from them. Others will see your work and draw inspiration. Nothing is lost, but new knives are gained.

I someone uses an idea it's not a problem, but when they start downloading my photos and try and scam people out of money, or make junk copies of my knives and start selling them, it can be a problem. From a low resolution photo it can be difficult to tell the quality of something, meaning if someone makes a junk copy and sells it could be hurting my sales, especially if they use my photos and sell junk. I have worked hard for a long time to make unique and very high quality and really don't want people copying my knives, when they can simply make a knife of their own design. Go to any Randall page on FB and look through some of the posts, the members there are constantly posting eBay ads of fake Randall knives and reporting them to eBay to have them removed.

Now explain to me what you think this guys intentions were when he did this.

 

[Natlek]

Stupid Pakistanis and Steeve too ................. they should have at least erased the name from ricasso

 

[Scott Hanson]

Stupid Pakistanis and Steeve too ................. they should have at least erased the name from ricasso

Nothing good can come from what they did here, at least not for me. Can you see why I wasn't happy?

 

[Natlek]

Nothing good can come from what they did here, at least not for me. Can you see why I wasn't happy?

Yes, I see now. Still, I think you worry too much about the Pakistanis. I've seen a lot of knives from them here. They don't even have the approximate quality of workmanship you offer. No , they are .......... light years far from what you offer.
I believe that anyone who knows what a good knife is does not look for it on websites and Facebook or on Ebay from Pakistanis..................

 

[Cushing H.]

Apparently you can have a small part of something patented on a knife. CMFTW was waving knives for people and posting pics here on the forum. Emerson had the wave patented, sent CMFTW a cease and desist letter and he had to stop waving knives for people, Emerson won that battle. I think Busse knives had a similar issue with knife makers coping their Talon hole, and same thing, they had it patented, they had to stop coping it.

Sorry ... what i wrote was misleading. What i really was trying to convey is that a patent is for a physical "thing". That "thing" can be a component in a larger object (like a patented component that is used as part of building a car), but it has to be a complete "thing" in and of itself. (How you patent a process is a different matter)

 

[Scott Hanson]

Yes, I see now. Still, I think you worry too much about the Pakistanis. I've seen a lot of knives from them here. They don't even have the approximate quality of workmanship you offer. No , they are .......... light years far from what you offer.
I believe that anyone who knows what a good knife is does not look for it on websites and Facebook or on Ebay from Pakistanis..................

I don't mind if someone gets inspiration from my work and use some ideas, but what they did really rubbed me the wrong way.

 

[Scott Hanson]

Sorry ... what i wrote was misleading. What i really was trying to convey is that a patent is for a physical "thing". That "thing" can be a component in a larger object (like a patented component that is used as part of building a car), but it has to be a complete "thing" in and of itself. (How you patent a process is a different matter)

Same thing I mentioned in the above post, I don't mind if someone uses some ideas. But, down loading my photos and claiming they made the knives and trying to sell them as their own is what got under my skin. I obviously did not invent the clip point, but I did design my own pattern for that knife blade and handle on the Bowie knife. The two crossed knives are replicas of the first knife Bo Randall made, they can copy that all day long, it's not my design. I am obviously not a lawyer neither, but come to think of it could my photographs be protected as artwork?

 

[Lorien]

Same thing I mentioned in the above post, I don't mind if someone uses some ideas. But, down loading my photos and claiming they made the knives and trying to sell them as their own is what got under my skin. I obviously did not invent the clip point, but I did design my own pattern for that knife blade and handle on the Bowie knife. The two crossed knives are replicas of the first knife Bo Randall made, they can copy that all day long, it's not my design. I am obviously not a lawyer neither, but come to think of it could my photographs be protected as artwork?

put a watermark on your photos. You will probably never have any success with legal action, so just make it hard for anyone to misrepresent your work as theirs.

 

[weo]

William - I think I do not understand the core of the point you are making.

I think the mis-understanding is with you, and I accept the blame for not being more clear. My point was that Mr Hanson's comment (that I paraphrased) saying:

People who are in business . . . expect to . . . make a profit.

would be more accurate and true if we replaced the word "expect" with the word "hope". Take insurance companies, they claim that they "have to" raise your rates after you make a claim because they "have to make a profit". Why do they get to keep all the premiums someone pays if that party never files a claim for the company to pay out? I think people think this is OK because a lot of people would agree with Mr Hanson's phrasing.

somebody wrote something along the lines- and I'll paraphrase-Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness...

Unfortunately, this still doesn't say about the right to make a profit from a business venture...


But this is taking the discussion in a different direction than the original post, so this will most likely be my last post on this. If you're still curious as to my take, feel free to continue this via a private conversation.

 

[Scott Hanson]

put a watermark on your photos. You will probably never have any success with legal action, so just make it hard for anyone to misrepresent your work as theirs.

That thought has crossed my mind. I also started using an American flag as a background in some of my photos.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

Scott, as I said that is them stealing a photo of your work, and claiming it as their own. I think that's obviously bad.

My point was about people making knives. If someone has the skill to make a knife that looks just like your knife, and puts their own name on it, I think more power to them. What seems to be upsetting you is people stealing photos of your knives and claiming they have them for sale.

My point was that people should be able to MAKE any knife they want based on anything they see.

 

[Jrmysell]

I agree with Ben here. Take that Bowie in question. I would have no reservations about making pretty much that exact Bowie knife if someone requested. If someone steals your picture and says they made it then yeah. But actually making a similar one IMO isn’t an issue unless you have something in it that is unique like a lock or a logo or something. A fixed blade knife pretty much has been done already in most every style imaginable.

 

[Scott Hanson]

would be more accurate and true if we replaced the word "expect" with the word "hope". Take insurance companies, they claim that they "have to" raise your rates after you make a claim because they "have to make a profit". Why do they get to keep all the premiums someone pays if that party never files a claim for the company to pay out? I think people think this is OK because a lot of people would agree with Mr Hanson's phrasing.

Ok, let's take another look at this. If a young man or woman spends 400 K on medical school and passes boards in Cardio-thoracic surgery, they probably could EXPECT to make a profit off of their investment.

Now, if someone spends 300 K on school to get a Liberal Arts a degree in Creative Basket Weaving, they probably could only HOPE to make a profit from that investment.

I've been making knives part time and selling them for over 30 years, I am at the point where I EXPECT I will make a profit.

Ok, insurance companies, they are for profit businesses, they sell a product that protects people from financial ruin from situations such as car accidents, home fires, and hospital bills and things of that nature. Now if someone doesn't like the cost of the insurance premiums offered by the insurance company, they don't have to buy that policy. They can simply go through life uninsured and ( hope or expect ) nothing bad will happen to them. But if someone does decide to buy a policy to protect their family and themself, the money they spent on that policy now belongs to the insurance company, they are not obligated to give that money back to you if you don't make any claims. If someone drinks and drives and smashes their car or someone else's car, or worse yet injures or kills someone, they probably should pay a higher premium than someone who doesn't.

 

[Scott Hanson]

I agree with Ben here. Take that Bowie in question. I would have no reservations about making pretty much that exact Bowie knife if someone requested. If someone steals your picture and says they made it then yeah. But actually making a similar one IMO isn’t an issue unless you have something in it that is unique like a lock or a logo or something. A fixed blade knife pretty much has been done already in most every style imaginable.

Scott, as I said that is them stealing a photo of your work, and claiming it as their own. I think that's obviously bad.

My point was about people making knives. If someone has the skill to make a knife that looks just like your knife, and puts their own name on it, I think more power to them. What seems to be upsetting you is people stealing photos of your knives and claiming they have them for sale.

My point was that people should be able to MAKE any knife they want based on anything they see.

Again, if someone uses an idea thats and makes something similar that actually looks like their own original work that's fine. But if you think it's okay to simply make exact copies or cheap knock offs of other peoples work and sell it as their own, then we may as well just eliminate patents, copyrights and trademarks all together. Then we could be just like China and Pakistan.

Now back on track.

Professional Courtesy​

1. Never download a photo of someone else's work and advertise it as your own.
2. If you want to copy some else's work then at least have the decency to ask them first before do. They will probably be more receptive to the idea if you do.
3. If you do copy someones work, have the courtesy to give them some credit for the hard work they put in to designing that knife.
4. If they say no, you probably should respect that decision and not do it.

 

[Jrmysell]

So to make a Bowie as you posted with guard, spacers and stag handle I need to ask you if I can make it and give you credit for that? Where in your photos of that Bowie are you giving credit?

 

[Scott Hanson]

So to make a Bowie as you posted with guard, spacers and stag handle I need to ask you if I can make it and give you credit for that? Where in your photos of that Bowie are you giving credit?

Does anyone know who invented the clip point Bowie? I doubt it, and I'm sure he's long passed away by now. As far as that blade, I sat down and drew that up myself and made my own template for it. The knife and handle design was credited to William Scagel as a Scagel style knife when I posted it, who passed away in 1961. If someone wants to make a clip point blade like that's fine, they can simple draw one up paste it to a piece of steel and have at it. If the handle gives someone inspiration thats great. But truth of matter is there is no real need make duplicate copies of that handle spacer pattern, especially when there are hundreds of photos on line of original Scagel knives. Some of the other knives I made and recently posted are drop point hunters with Randall model 27 handle patterns, and I did email Randal Knives and got permission to make some of their knives, and I do give them credit for their handle design when use it, as a professional courtesy to them. A big part of knife making is making knives of your own design, there is probably nothing better than creating your own design, then it is uniquely yours, and not a copy of someone else's work. These are drop point hunters with a Randall model 27 handle anyone can copy all day long it's not my design I don't care. The Kris style logo is mine, I had it custom made from a drawing I made, that I really don't want copied..

 

[FredyCro]

Does anyone know who invented the clip point Bowie? I doubt it, and I'm sure he's long passed away by now. As far as that blade, I sat down and drew that up myself and made my own template for it. The knife and handle design was credited to William Scagel as a Scagel style knife when I posted it, who passed away in 1961. If someone wants to make a clip point blade like that's fine, they can simple draw one up paste it to a piece of steel and have at it. If the handle gives someone inspiration thats great. But truth of matter is there is no real need make duplicate copies of that handle spacer pattern, especially when there are hundreds of photos on line of original Scagel knives. Some of the other knives I made and recently posted are drop point hunters with Randall model 27 handle patterns, and I did email Randal Knives and got permission to make some of their knives, and I do give them credit for their handle design when use it, as a professional courtesy to them. A big part of knife making is making knives of your own design, there is probably nothing better than creating your own design, then it is uniquely yours, and not a copy of someone else's work. These are drop point hunters with a Randall model 27 handle anyone can copy all day long it's not my design I don't care. The Kris style logo is mine, I had it custom made from a drawing I made, that I really don't want copied.View attachment 1658681.

I could say that it is a copy of an Austrian flag because the spacers are red-white-red. Does that make me right?

Lets be honest and please don't get me wrong, it's exceptional work, but there is nothing in there that makes that knife pattern, handle, spacer design or guard design as destiguishable from many other similiar (but not same) knifes that it could be protected under IP law. The only thing I see there that you could protect is your makers mark as a TM and your IP on the picture itself. Your makers mark will also be (somewhat) protected as an unregistered TM (google this). Again, I could be wrong, but I dont think so.

If the specific pattern (as an arrangement of colors or shapes) of the spacers can be seen on all your knifes and it became as relevant for the market as Bob Lovelesses drop point design and as destiguishable from all other knifes and spacer patterns on the market, that when you see it (without it having your makers mark), and one goes "hey, thats a Scott Hanson", then one could argue that that specific pattern reached a relevance of becoming a trademark itself.

Still, no one should be allowed to blatantly use someone elses pictures or makers mark, and pass their work as yours.

And seriously, do you think that someone who can afford your knife (without knowing what they cost), would buy a cheap copy from a Pakistani guy on Facebook?

I am not trying to dis you, but just share my (non binding and somewhat also professional) opinion on the example you made. Again, I am not a US lawyer and might be completely wrong.

 

[Richard338]

I think we've strayed a bit from the original topic. What was attempted here was to use Scott's product as a vehicle for fraud. I doubt that the buyer would have received anything.

On the original topic, I think the closer we get to art knives, the further we get from just "wood and steel" in the same sense that a painting is more than canvas and paint. When I look through the David Darom books, the creativity by some makers is way beyond anything I could ever come up with and would be silly to copy.
I did make a dagger with a trapped ball pommel inspired by Bruce Bump's work. I exchanged some emails with Bruce and he was very helpful with some tips. My version used a pyrite sphere which Bruce thought was neat and he said he might try something similar. Obviously no one will mistake my work for Bruce's and most other details were different.

 

[Greenberg Woods]

On the original topic, if the client wants an EXACT copy of the knife of another maker, probably good courtesy to shoot him a a slightly flattering message, say you love his work and would you mind if you based a knife on one of his pieces.

If the client wants something similar to that piece, I would recommend drawing up something similar based on the makers work, put a bit of your own spin on it, and check back with the client to see if he likes the modified design.