Public Apology..

Ira,

all i can do is offer it..i can't nor would i if i could, MAKE anyone except it...each has to look witihn as i have...but, i do mean it and i have learned from it..more than you know..

but, it just doesn't help when someone kicks a person when he is down..or for whatever agenda they may have..when THEY were never involved to begin with..

my entire purpose for posting was because i meant it..or i wouldn't have posted..but, when others post negatively ENTIRELY off subject..i can't see how that helps or how that can be considered constructive...and why that isn't being pointed out..

but, since i have stated these facts..that seems to have ceased.

thanks
 
Well that last part about the facts did the trick.
I save every email I receive. I'll be glad to forward them. Just email me at dson@swbell.net.
Facts are facts, but selective facts are lies. Jerry didn't bother to tell any of you how he got the 4" DA in the first place so I went all the way back to Nov 16, 2001 to find his inital email and one thing was apparent. His wanting changes was the first thing out of the gate.
There are 67 pieces of mail and many, many changes along the way and more than one knife involved.
I won't use BF's bandwidth to post em. Just email and ask for them if you like.
 
larry,
that works both ways...
YOU and ONLY YOU contacted me FIRST..TRUTH or LIE?
again, i don't understand what is UP WITH YOU?

YOU OFFERED TO MAKE ME A KNIFE TO MY SPECIFICATIONS...and throw in the "extras" because you had something to gain..ANYTHING that happened after that, is really a moot point..if your offer was not sincere, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE OFFERED IT.

you can/could contact me personally at anytime..NONE of which you have done..?

it was my understanding from the LESSON I RECENTLY LEARNED, that personal differences between two people should be attempted first..NONE OF WHICH YOU HAVE DONE..


why you came over here to stir something up is beyond me..but, it clearly reflects poorly on you..


BOTTOM LINE:
it was my money as it would be any other buyer's and how it is spent is up to the individual..your whole issue of someone selling a knife that you made for them is unbelievable..

if every maker were like that..there would be no for sale/trade forums..PERIOD!

THIS BACK AND FORTH IS A WASTE OF BANDWITH..
 
I have no idea as to what is going on as far as the deal with Larry is concerned. That is an issue to be dealt with in another thread if need be. I am not saying that I support either Jerry or Larry, just that this is an issue that needs to be dealt with somewhere other than on this thread.

To address the original post. Jerry, you do not owe me any apology. You never bad mouthed me or in any other way did anything to me that requires an apology. It is enough to know that you have come to the realization that indeed you did not handle things the way you should have. What will tell me if this apology you have offered is sincere, is how you do your dealings in the future. If I do not see any more threads about you doing the same kind of stuff to others, that will be good enough for me.

A person can only be judged by their actions. Jerry, your actions in the future will tell us all we need to know about the sincerity of this apology.

Edited to add a missing s.
 
Jerry:
You just couldent leave well enough alone could you.
"since i have stated these facts..that seems to have ceased."
I guess that is why you are who you are and will never be far from controversy.

So go ahead and get the last word,or will the last word get you?
Somthing to think about.


:confused:
 
Well, since this has been sent to GB&U it looks like this thread is going to head in a different direction than it's original intent. I will withhold any comments on what happened between Larry and Jerry until I know more about the situation.
 
I don't know all the details of the deal with Larry and Jerry either... and I really don't want to read through 67 e-mails to get them. Larry has always been great in answering questions I have and is a pretty cool guy. I have never traded with or dealt with Jerry.

That being said, when a customer buys a knife from a maker, the knife is the property of the customer. A person could find the knife has been searching after for 10 years, and be totally happy. The next day, circumstances in his life change and the blade isn't quite as important anymore. SO he sells it. It doesn't mean he doesn't appreciate the value of the blade or the time, effort, and heart put into crafting it. It simply means the money was more important then the knife at the time.

A friend of mine said the other night: "When I buy a knife, I don't want to buy hassles and heartache if I must sell it. When i buy a knife, it is my property do do with what I please."

I have to totally agree with that statement. I am NOT jumping on anyone in particular in this thread, that is definately the last thing I want to do. My main point, is that the selling of a knife shouldn't upset a maker, as it is not a sign of disrespect. The selling of a knife, for the most part, has everything to do with the situation of the person selling it. I have sold custom folders of a maker I truely admire and respect in order to obtain firearms (another habit of mine). It had nothing to do with the quality of the work or the heart of the maker, it had more to do with my desires to build a different aspect of my ever growing weapon/tool collection.

I have a great deal of respect for Larry, and hope he doezn't read this as an attack on him by any means.

JR
 
I know Larry Davidson.Trust him with my life.If he said something, believe it to be gospel.
 
I have read this thread with a lot of interest and have held back making any comments until now...

I'd like to make a couple of observations for whatever they are worth, and granted they probably aren't worth much, but....

1. I really like this forum - I have made a lot of friends here and will make many more in the future. Buying, selling, and trading knives here has given me endless hours of pleasure. The people here are honest and friendly and I have never been disappointed with any deal I have made here - either as a buyer or seller. Damn - I love you guys.

So what does that have to do with this thread?

1. I was the one the got the Larry Davidson from Underdog - It was a clean deal, fast shiping frequent email updates. I offered Underdog a deal he couldn't refuse - and he went for it and completed the deal in an honorable fashion. That was my personal experience - that does not mean it has been someone else's personal experience.

2. I have a friend that is a knife maker - last month I called him and asked him to make something special for me. This knife maker stopped everything he was doing to get me the knife that I wanted. I kept the knife for about 4 weeks and sold it - I found something else I wanted and selling he knife was the quickest way to raise the cash.
Although I no longer have the knife he made for me, I will always be grateful for he what he did for me and who ever has the knife now owns a little piece of my memories along with it. I loved that knife and still do and I will never forget the extra effort that the maker put in to getting it to me.

People can slam UnderDog for things he may have done in a previous deal - he may well deserve it - but he did not do me wrong - and I understand how some people will part with a knife, even a special knife.

'nuff said - I'm outta here.

Thanks again folks - Im proud to call you my friends.
 
Mike,

2. I have a friend that is a knife maker - last month I called him and asked him to make something special for me. This knife maker stopped everything he was doing to get me the knife that I wanted. I kept the knife for about 4 weeks and sold it - I found something else I wanted and selling he knife was the quickest way to raise the cash.

What kind of gratitude does that express to your friend who dropped everything to make you that knife? It almost seems to me that you're giving him the message that the knife wasn't really that special, seeing that it could be replaced by something better just a month later. Dunno, not a slam, just a difference of opinion of what knife collecting is about. If a knifemaker friend makes me a knife, it's a keeper.

It's very true that once a customer buys a knife it's his to do whatever the heck he wants. But most knifemakers I've talked to like to think that they're making someone a tool or piece of art (or both) that the customer will use and value for a long time - maybe they're dillusional, and maybe I am too, 'cause I share this view. Again, it's just a difference of opinion I guess.

~Mitch
 
Mitch,

You make a valid point - I respect that.

Now if my wife would have bought it for me as a present - well that would have been a bit different.

Or, if the maker would have given me the knife as a present, or engraved my name on it or personalized it in any fashion, that would have been different - it was the same style he would have made for anyone, there was no customization/personalization of the knife.

The favor was in getting the knife to me quickly - at that point it became a commerical transaction on a piece of art.
The knife is a form of art - and that art will be appreciated if I own it or not.

The act of doing me a favor will be repaid to the maker by repeat business and referals.

Different views - both valid I believe.

Thanks for your comments - it certainly gives us something to think about.

Mike
 
Now this is the kind of discussion I like to see. Two people disagreeing about something without getting defensive and calling each other names. Very refreshing. Good on ya guys.
 
I have knives made by makers that I would NEVER sell.They will go to my heirs.Said knives are ones that have a little special touch put there by a makers hand.That being said I do not have knives in my collection that are from makers that are buttholes.
Sometimes when I receive a knife from a maker I shed a tear.I am not a sissy as you that know me will attest.But the tear is one of joy and I realize it is a part of the person that created it.All knife makers are different, as all humans are different, and when they creat these things that I enjoy I treasure the knife as well as the maker.
Randy
 
Originally posted by nifrand
I have knives made by makers that I would NEVER sell.They will go to my heirs.Said knives are ones that have a little special touch put there by a makers hand.That being said I do not have knives in my collection that are from makers that are buttholes.
Sometimes when I receive a knife from a maker I shed a tear.I am not a sissy as you that know me will attest.But the tear is one of joy and I realize it is a part of the person that created it.All knife makers are different, as all humans are different, and when they creat these things that I enjoy I treasure the knife as well as the maker.
Randy

Well said Randy. Wish I had said it :D
You just nailed down the reason I enjoy customs so much.
 
I can't believe this argument is even going on between two long time member's that are BOTH held in such high regard, I have to agree that once cash trades hands so does the rights of what to do with that knife, unless there were conditions placed on the deal. Case in point, years ago when i lost my company TXLAZER and had to sell my collection i asked the buyers of a few knives that IF they were to EVER sell them, PLEASE give me right of 1st refusal, i have only seen a few of MY old knives being RESOLD and 99% of the time the current owner contacted me first and asked if i wanted them back. only once did a buyer NOT ask me (i assume he forgot, maybe he didn't care, i don't know). i have a few customs in the pipe for years!!!! that i was told would take 2 months to make for me, now i KNOW when i get these knives they will be worth a lot more then i paid for them, because the makers have offered to trick them out to compensate for my inconvenience (long wait) and since they offered i told them WHAT i WANT that would make ME happy. NOW, when I get these knives if they don't float my boat I wont have ANY PROBLEMS with selling them, after all they are MINE to do with as I please.
Larry, would you be just as MAD at Jerry if instead of selling your creation, he destroyed by hacking away at cinder (sp) blocks? Or if Jerry sold the knife at a loss? Larry (folks) I'm not trolling here I'm just trying to figure out WHY Larry's so upset

RICK & LARRY(NOT Larry D) I DON'T PLAN ON SELLING THE KNIVES YOUR BOTH MAKING FOR ME, HOWEVER IF IT COMES DOWN TO A ROOF OVER MY HEAD OR FOOD ON MY TABLE AND I'VE ALREADY SOLD EVERYTHING ELSE! A MAN HAS TO DO WHAT A MAN HAS TO DO!
BTW, LD i love your double bolstered DA's, it is NEXT on my list as a EDC
 
Not only is it upsetting to *any* maker that his knife gets turned over quickly--for the very reasons Nifrand identified and has been the subject matter of any good Ed Fowler thread, but having said knife put up for sale this quickly taps into the maker's bottom-line.

Listen to what Les R and others have been preaching and you will see validity in a maker's work being sought-after as a guideline of his status. A knife that is sent out for sale soon after completion makes him look like his work is 'disposable'. NOT nearly worth the effort and character that he has injected into it. Would I be upset if I was DSON? HELL YES!! It's affecting his status and by extension, his income in the future. Why wouldn't every knifemaker want their knives kept by *conscientous* collectors?

You can tell me all day about the different things in our lives that come up to force a sale. What is unspoken is there is a sort of 'collector's disease' which makes for impulse buying--and selling.

Sure, this piece had to move because something may have 'come up'. This is always a 'close-of-statement' argument that can't be approached. But..... At the teensy expense of a maker's reputation? however seemingly unimportant that may seem to some folks, this is paramount in my frame of mind. And pennies do add up.....

I understand why there is such a broohaha about this, and Underdog, if you are anticipating your NEXT custom very soon, I think you should think a little about this 'disease', and how it might be affecting you. I've always liked your posts and *you*, but a little directness is what I need to offer. No assault intended.

Coop
 
Blade747,
thanks for the advice..certainly no offense taken on my part!
i never meant to offend anyone much less a well regarded maker..it seems like everything i have done recently has been wrong..:(

i even e-mailed a moderator and asked him the peoper place to put this public apology after recent unfortunate events and was advised the community forum so, that is where it started..but, it turned personal and got thrown here...

i recently went through a major change in occupation geography so, many auto and double actions i owned had to go..NONE OF IT WAS PERSONAL against any maker...but, life dictates a person's direction..

additionally, i have 2 knives on order with makers where WE PERSONALLY spoke on the phone PRIOR to order about delivery times due to my VERY UNUSUAL circumstances and upcoming isolation...BOTH PROMISED knives by a certain time..so i paid them up front..the knives are NOW running 45 days late..i understand that there must be some flexibility on both but, this is something i was NOT at liberty to have at the time and CLEARLY STATED it..anyway, this could go on and on..

point is, i didn't come here to try and ruin them or even cause them problems..i have just kept it to myslelf..

i guess that is why this has been so difficult for me to grasp..it seems that a majority here agree that when a buyer buys a knife..it is his to do with as he sees fit..keep it, sell it, give it away or destroy it..

as a side note..there are 2 makers that recently moved me ahead of more than 50 orders each because of my situation..now, i could see them both being highly upset..if the knives showed up elsewhere..because in this case, I CONTACTED THEM FIRST and I ASKED for the SERVICE..and they BOTH came to the plate and DELIVERED EXACTLY as promised (in less than 2 weeks)...i will eat grass before i EVER SELL these 2 knives to buy food..
 
I think any knife maker should feel secure in the fact if someone sells their knife it will go to another knife loving individual and I'm sure cherished as he hoped it would be.Selling or trading a knife away should not make it appear the knife is unworthy,poor quality,or not special.Circumstances come up,financial,collecting directions change etc.This year maybe someone is into folders and next year fixed blades.Just my two cents.
 
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