Quality Control Issues in General

pbcg

pbcg

Joined
Oct 20, 2009
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Is it just me or does there seem to be more quality control issues lately? I'm referring to production knives, mainly made in the USA and would classify as being in the top brands.

I know that I've been disappointed as of late with new knives, out of the box that have some type of issue. Be it cosmetic or functional, after taking a good look I'm finding issues with regularity I never used to.

Also, I've noticed what I think is more and more posts these days of people complaining that their "Brand X" knife came out of the box with blade play, lock up issues or other flaws.

The usual response to these complaints is a litany of testimonials of how good the customer service is of the given brand and to "just send it in and they will take care of it" followed by a description of a similar problem they themselves had with the brand.

Ok, my point is that all these companies have great customer service and do solve the problems, but when you build your brand around quality manufacturing, attention to detail, followed with made in the USA I think there should be an expectation that your knife doesn't have noticeable flaws right out of the box. Not to mention the aggravation and cost in some cases involved in sending it back.

If this was a one time occurrence I might not feel so strongly about it but I can say that of the top three brands at least one in three I've purchased lately I had to send back for one reason or another. I think this is kind of high? I just wanted to ask, is it just me or have others noticed this trend also?

Thanks
 
I don't think so.

Knives are made by people, sure, the parts are machined, but the assembly is done by people.

People are not flawless, from the foundry to the showcase, there are people involved.

I do think that where alot of it comes from, is unrealistic expectations.

Problems happen, and as long as a company backs up its product in a timely manner, then I'm good with them. And they have a customer for life. First time I hear it isn't so, I drop them like a hot plate of enchiladas. :D

The more knives a company, the more chances there are for issues.

"Warranty's Don't Work In the Field" is one that I've heard quite often, and at some point, its true, but everything can be broken. I buy knives from companies I trust, and never take an untested product to the field with me.

Moose
 
Moosez45 said:
I don't think so.

Knives are made by people, sure, the parts are machined, but the assembly is done by people.

People are not flawless, from the foundry to the showcase, there are people involved.

I do think that where alot of it comes from, is unrealistic expectations.

Problems happen, and as long as a company backs up its product in a timely manner, then I'm good with them. And they have a customer for life. First time I hear it isn't so, I drop them like a hot plate of enchiladas. :D

The more knives a company, the more chances there are for issues.

"Warranty's Don't Work In the Field" is one that I've heard quite often, and at some point, its true, but everything can be broken. I buy knives from companies I trust, and never take an untested product to the field with me.

Moose
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Bingo.
 
I can except everything you just said, however the ratio of 1 in 3 that I've experienced over the last few months does seem kinda high. At least to me. I should stress that I'm referring to noticeable or obvious flaws. Not defects that occur later on. Things that should be caught if someone took the time to look.
 
pbcg said:
I can except everything you just said, however the ratio of 1 in 3 that I've experienced over the last few months does seem kinda high. At least to me. I should stress that I'm referring to noticeable or obvious flaws. Not defects that occur later on. Things that should be caught if someone took the time to look.
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Well, success can be a burden in and of itself. If you knives are successful, and they start to sell faster, and production picks up, I would consider it growing pains.

If I'm buying a CRK, Hinderer, or custom made knife, that costs tons of cash, sure, cosmetic flaws better be left somewhere other than my knife. If I am buying a production knife to use, the how it looks is of little concern.

I have this "thing" I do. It concerns the Buck 110. Its an iconic knife for me, and the short back story is, I never had one as a kid, but always wanted one. As a teenager, I had several.

As an adult, I only buy ones that are perfect. No gaps, even grids, centered blade, no proud lockbar, polished brass, and good cuts of material on the inlays. I like the hunt. So far, I've only bought 4.

Does that speak poorly of Buck knives? Hell, it better not. The make alot of knives, and have some great designs, some, that have passed the test of time, it just means they are making knives. Finding perfect ones are rare, and thus, the allure of the hunt for me.

I think that for $100 or less, you should expect a knife that will have some kind of flaw, cosmetically, not functionally, and if you do get a knife that you are not happy with, I think the manufacturer should make it so that you are. But if your expectations are too much for what you pay, then, I think you should look inwardly and see just exactly what you are wanting.

Coatings on my knives don't last, nor do the factory edges. Handles will get dirty, and sheaths will get scuffed, its just how my knives live, so, as long as it doesn't break, holds an edge, and can be field sharpened, its a solid knife to me.

YMMV.

Moose
 
It's critical to reconcile personal reports of legitimate defects with the actual statistical context and significance of those reports.
 
Again, for the most part I agree with you but when I buy a production knife that can be in the $150-$200 + range I would hope that It doesn't have blade play or the lock up is off.

I see it this way, If I sold you a knife here on the exchange and I listed it as NIB and when you got it, it had blade play and the finish had some minor issues and you called me on it. Would you except the excuse that I'm busy selling a lot of knives and didn't notice it? Or would you have thought at a minimum that I at least gave it a once over?

That's my point. We are talking about the better production knives here that do cost upwards of $100 and as far as I'm concerned are being offered NIB and the companies make a big issue of their attention to detail and quality so yes, I think taking 3min to give it a once over is not asking so much.

I don't like that I have to factor in the extra cost and aggravation of sending it back as something to be expected.

I guess maybe it's just me but thanks for the input just the same.
 
More people are going to be inspired to complain on the internet about getting a bad knife than will be inspired to post "Holy crap--I got my knife and there was nothing wrong with it!" :D

Long story short, though, is that lemons happen to EVERY company, and you have to expect it to a certain degree. But there are also definitely certain incidence rates that are considered more or less acceptable depending on the price range of that item.
 
pbcg said:
Again, for the most part I agree with you but when I buy a production knife that can be in the $150-$200 + range I would hope that It doesn't have blade play or the lock up is off.

I see it this way, If I sold you a knife here on the exchange and I listed it as NIB and when you got it, it had blade play and the finish had some minor issues and you called me on it. Would you except the excuse that I'm busy selling a lot of knives and didn't notice it? Or would you have thought at a minimum that I at least gave it a once over?

That's my point. We are talking about the better production knives here that do cost upwards of $100 and as far as I'm concerned are being offered NIB and the companies make a big issue of their attention to detail and quality so yes, I think taking 3min to give it a once over is not asking so much.

I don't like that I have to factor in the extra cost and aggravation of sending it back as something to be expected.

I guess maybe it's just me but thanks for the input just the same.
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Well, I guess it depends. I sell knives, or at least used to. I never checked anything other than the knife matched the label on the box. I never removed the knife and checked it over for flaws, as, it wasn't to be my knife. I did accept returns on knives that people were not happy with, and thus turned it back to the manufacturer to fix.

I consider blade play and lock up a functional flaw, and I would have it repaired either by the manufacturer or by myself. If I didn't want to send it back and it could be fixed pretty quickly by me, I'd just take care of it.

Say, for example, if I bought a ZT 561 and it had blade play and early lock up, I'd call Kershaw, and make arrangements for a new one to be sent out, and the other to be returned. But at $260, I would expect that process to be PDQ in the happening.

If you got a Kershaw from WallyHell, and there was some blade play and early lockup, then, I would just run it back up the the Blue Purgatory, and swap it out.

Also, could you be more specific in what knives you've had 1:3 ratio and what was wrong with them? It might help me understand your position better.

Moose
 
Well production knives will vary depending on the price range and company that made the knives.

In general the more you pay the better it will be to a certain point were things tend to level off in the $300 - $500 range or so.

Some need to realize that reality is much different than HYPE and some peoples very high expectations of what they expect, in some cases that is ridiculous in the price ranges the knives are in.

Don't expect a $400 knife to be 10X better than a $40 knife because one will be very disappointed.

Just because a knife costs $150 doesn't mean it will be perfect because someone thinks that is a lot of money, or $100, $50, $250 ETC.

That is production knives though, on a Speced out custom that one pays a lot for and has to wait it better be right, however nothing is perfect that is made by man, but they can get pretty close in the higher end price ranges.

Just because Chris Reeve can pump out those knives looking as good as they do F&F and high tolerance wise doesn't mean that one should expect a $100 knife to meet those same standards just because they want it too...... They are dreaming....

There is reality and then there is wishful thinking and expectations based on what someones opinion is.

Being reasonable in what to expect when buying a knife will cause one a lot less headaches overall.
 
I could list the knives and the issues but I wasn't and am not trying to slam ANY brand or retailer for that matter. . I'm not new to knives and know what has come to be acceptable and that's what bothers me. If I buy a limited edition folding knife from a top manufacturer and the blade won't close or it comes with rust on it that I think I that not acceptable. In all cases the companies did the right thing so I don't want to slam them here. That was not my point or question really. I was just wandering if its just me or not. Like I said I don't recall having repeated QC issues with the top brands that I in fact buy and trust because of my good past experiences, that I seem to be having more and more issues lately.
 
I also think there are unrealistic expectations, but going in the opposite direction. People think that as they become more willing to spend more money on individual knives, that they can still accept the same, or even lower, level of QC. Just because there are fewer of the knives made, or the material is more exotic, or there are more youtube videos of that knife, all of a sudden there is zero room to question what comes out of the factory. The burden is placed wholly on the shipper and the warranty department to have the customer send the product back, get it fixed, or take receipt of it a second time. Somehow this is considered normal, and it has become more important to some people on how problems are fixed rather than how problems are prevented.

I will tweak, repair, or return a cheap knife. Since I didn't put down much money up front, then I could be expected to put in some work and adjust expectations. An expensive knife is supposed to be expensive for a reason. If I have to invest my own time and labor to make it right, then I shouldn't be paying more money since I didn't get more craftsmanship or attention to detail. Basically, if I worked one hour to make the money to buy the cheap knife and then worked one hour on the cheap knife itself, then there's two hours of my time. If I work ten hours for the money spent on the expensive knife, then why would I be spending one hour working on the lock, or an hour sanding sharp edges, or five hours flicking it to smooth the action. Where is all the labor in the knife I paid for with my own ten hours of labor, and why I am investing more of my own man hours after that? It just shouldn't cost more to play/fix functions on knives, it should cost more to not have to.

And what really gets me is the fact that there are so many cheaper knives with the same or fewer amounts of QC problems, yet people still argue that they are paying for better craftsmanship when it just isn't there.
 
hardheart said:
I also think there are unrealistic expectations, but going in the opposite direction. People think that as they become more willing to spend more money on individual knives, that they can still accept the same, or even lower, level of QC. Just because there are fewer of the knives made, or the material is more exotic, or there are more youtube videos of that knife, all of a sudden there is zero room to question what comes out of the factory. The burden is placed wholly on the shipper and the warranty department to have the customer send the product back, get it fixed, or take receipt of it a second time. Somehow this is considered normal, and it has become more important to some people on how problems are fixed rather than how problems are prevented.

I will tweak, repair, or return a cheap knife. Since I didn't put down much money up front, then I could be expected to put in some work and adjust expectations. An expensive knife is supposed to be expensive for a reason. If I have to invest my own time and labor to make it right, then I shouldn't be paying more money since I didn't get more craftsmanship or attention to detail. Basically, if I worked one hour to make the money to buy the cheap knife and then worked one hour on the cheap knife itself, then there's two hours of my time. If I work ten hours for the money spent on the expensive knife, then why would I be spending one hour working on the lock, or an hour sanding sharp edges, or five hours flicking it to smooth the action. Where is all the labor in the knife I paid for with my own ten hours of labor, and why I am investing more of my own man hours after that? It just shouldn't cost more to play/fix functions on knives, it should cost more to not have to.

And what really gets me is the fact that there are so many cheaper knives with the same or fewer amounts of QC problems, yet people still argue that they are paying for better craftsmanship when it just isn't there.
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Yeah, exactly. :D

If I get something that turns out to be a piece of garbage it goes back right away.

I do expect a certain level of correctness and that does vary depending on the price range, however even a $40 knife from wally world should be functional as a knife, even $20 SAK's work fine out of the box.
 
A lot of it depends on where that extra money is really going. The fundamental categories that money/attention can be placed are design, materials, and execution. sometimes you're paying more because the design is more complicated (i.e. it costs a lot to make regardless of materials.) Sometimes you're paying more because the materials cost more (both raw as well as work time), and sometimes you're paying more because of tighter tolerances in fit/finish or surface treatments, or assembly methods.

But I agree that the elements of the knife need to be added up and compared to the asking price. And sometimes you get what you pay for, and other times you get more OR less than what you paid for.
 
pbcg said:
I can except everything you just said, however the ratio of 1 in 3 that I've experienced over the last few months does seem kinda high.
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That would be high.
I haven't noticed it at that rate though.
Also, remember how people are far more apt to whine than say good things.
The advertising idea was that a satisfied customer will tell a couple of people, whereas a disatisfied customer will tell 10 or 20.

And people just seem to be whinier these days, and that's coming from someone who was spoiled enough growing up.

People think crime has gone up (it hasn't). People thingk quality control has gone down...it probably hasn't either.
The internet and inter-linked media just allows people from all over the planet to bitch at the same time now, which creates a perception that things are worse.
 
FortyTwoBlades said:
A lot of it depends on where that extra money is really going. The fundamental categories that money/attention can be placed are design, materials, and execution. sometimes you're paying more because the design is more complicated (i.e. it costs a lot to make regardless of materials.) Sometimes you're paying more because the materials cost more (both raw as well as work time), and sometimes you're paying more because of tighter tolerances in fit/finish or surface treatments, or assembly methods.

But I agree that the elements of the knife need to be added up and compared to the asking price. And sometimes you get what you pay for, and other times you get more OR less than what you paid for.
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That's why understanding what they are paying for is very important.

What goes into some of those knives is VERY expensive and or expensive to work with.

Just a steel difference alone can more than double the cost of the finished knife, everything else being the same.
 
hardheart said:
And what really gets me is the fact that there are so many cheaper knives with the same or fewer amounts of QC problems, yet people still argue that they are paying for better craftsmanship when it just isn't there.
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Yeah, you're telling me... :foot:
 
Quality control in general is lacking. I've had good luck with knives made in the USA. Recently that means ESEE and out of six all have been perfect in every way. With furniture, cars, travel trailers, etc., I can assure you there WILL be problems. Companies want to rush a product out and figure they will take care of the problem IF someone complains. Many people won't complain and will tolerate the problem or fix it themselves. I'm sure business just figures this in to the equation. It's cheaper to take care of X number of problems than pay someone to examine Y number before they ship. Assuming the "inspector" even cares. I also believe companies count on people not bothering to return a product. Shipping a big knife can run $20 after all fees are tacked on. If it cost less than $80-$90 in the first place, that adds a whole lot. Steel problems and heat treat are not something you can see, bent blades are:) I also believe that a large number of knives are bought and looked at only. They could be magnesium and it would matter. So, I can't say there are more problems now, but I've grown to expect there just will be some sort of problem with pretty much everything you buy. I'm one of those people who EXPECTS a surgeon to leave sponges in you after surgery. Take care.
 
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