Quality Control Issues in General

hardheart said:
And what really gets me is the fact that there are so many cheaper knives with the same or fewer amounts of QC problems, yet people still argue that they are paying for better craftsmanship when it just isn't there.
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I guess the knife gods must just smile on me, because I keep getting better craftsmanship for more money.
When I pay more, I get more.
When I pay less, I almost always get less.
 
hardheart said:
I also think there are unrealistic expectations, but going in the opposite direction. People think that as they become more willing to spend more money on individual knives, that they can still accept the same, or even lower, level of QC. Just because there are fewer of the knives made, or the material is more exotic, or there are more youtube videos of that knife, all of a sudden there is zero room to question what comes out of the factory. The burden is placed wholly on the shipper and the warranty department to have the customer send the product back, get it fixed, or take receipt of it a second time. Somehow this is considered normal, and it has become more important to some people on how problems are fixed rather than how problems are prevented.

I will tweak, repair, or return a cheap knife. Since I didn't put down much money up front, then I could be expected to put in some work and adjust expectations. An expensive knife is supposed to be expensive for a reason. If I have to invest my own time and labor to make it right, then I shouldn't be paying more money since I didn't get more craftsmanship or attention to detail. Basically, if I worked one hour to make the money to buy the cheap knife and then worked one hour on the cheap knife itself, then there's two hours of my time. If I work ten hours for the money spent on the expensive knife, then why would I be spending one hour working on the lock, or an hour sanding sharp edges, or five hours flicking it to smooth the action. Where is all the labor in the knife I paid for with my own ten hours of labor, and why I am investing more of my own man hours after that? It just shouldn't cost more to play/fix functions on knives, it should cost more to not have to.

And what really gets me is the fact that there are so many cheaper knives with the same or fewer amounts of QC problems, yet people still argue that they are paying for better craftsmanship when it just isn't there.
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You nailed some great points about expectations. With Benchmades for instance, I've always looked at the knife out of the box as a starting point. I expect a few fitting flaws, which generally I can fix. Finish flaws are another story, and sometimes warrant a return/exchange. I've got several BM Bone Collector Axis models (freakin' great knife at its pricepoint) that I had to remove the backspacers from and tap the threadserts in flush with the backspacer surface; out of the box, the non-flushness caused visible gaps between the backspacers and the stainless liners. Many would pitch a fit over this, expecting perfection out of the box for a ~$100 folder. Not me, if it's this minor. In the case of the BM Bone Collectors, you're getting D2 at ~61RC, the Axis lock, blackened stainless liners, nicely-sculpted G10, and for me, the perfect EDC. But in a way, the three I have were more or less a "box of materials" that I had to fit to my liking upon arrival. Worth it for me, coming from having carried and used Sebenza's exclusively for years, but always longing for something I would be a little less concerned with using as hard as I really wanted to.
 
Once again I tend to agree with what has been said. People do complain more and the interment provides a bigger audience. Some can't wait to slam a brand or pile on. That wasn't my point or goal. I have 20 knives of a particular brand. Some from as far back as the early nineties to today. I give them all the same inspection. And of the particular brand I've had far more issues of late. that's why I posted to see what others thought.

Maybe it's just me, but maybe as I suspect as companies get larger and larger they tend to forget what got them there and let thing's slip a bit. Now, something that was said and I was trying to express is it seems to be the norm that on a production knife there will be issues and as long as the company does the right thing that's ok. Well, I think there should be more expectation that the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

I don't think it's wrong or people are out of line to expect that a new knife shouldn't have to be returned. Regardless of cost but especially the most expensive ones.

Like I said earlier, if I sell a knife here in the exchange there will be a certain expectation that it is in the condition described. If I say it's NIB and it has issues how understanding would most be to the excuse that I was too busy to give it a once over? I don't think that just because I buy it off the shelf or on-line from a retailer there should be any less expectation....

Well, thanks for all the input and replies.
 
Most discussion forums are comprised mainly of end users. This one is unique in that people that work in the industry are well represented. Imagine if you could participate in a discussion about Apple products with Tim Cook. We are fortunate to be able to, for instance, start a thread about a Spyderco product and have Sal Glesser himself chime in. By the same token, we are going to encounter more resistance than usual when we voice complaints regarding one of their products. It's a double edged sword, to be sure, but in my opinion, the accessibilty far outweighs the bias.

As far as expectations, I'll say this. I run my own business. It's isn't a huge business, and as such, we live and die by customer service. People don't come here because they get the lowest prices; they come here because they like doing business with us. Sometimes customers come in with a complaint, and while most of the time it winds up being their mistake, I still hear them out and usually handle the issue myself instead of delegating it to one of my employees. After I address the issue, I follow up by researching what caused the problem and making any necessary changes so it does not happen again. I've been doing this for 17 years now, and while we make very few mistakes, I don't let a single one of them slide. I intend to make my operation better and better every single chance I get.

My advice to any end user who encounters a problem is this: report it. Give the manufacturer a chance to make any necessary improvements, but don't give them a pass. Like spoiling a child rotten, you're doing more harm than good when you don't give proper feedback, both good and bad. Which brings me to my next point: don't forget to thank them for a job well done when it's deserved. Nothing is better for worker morale than to know that the fruit of their labor is appreciated. Post both the good and the bad stories, and don't discourage others from doing the same.
 
pbcg said:
Once again I tend to agree with what has been said. People do complain more and the interment provides a bigger audience. Some can't wait to slam a brand or pile on. That wasn't my point or goal. I have 20 knives of a particular brand. Some from as far back as the early nineties to today. I give them all the same inspection. And of the particular brand I've had far more issues of late. that's why I posted to see what others thought.

Maybe it's just me, but maybe as I suspect as companies get larger and larger they tend to forget what got them there and let thing's slip a bit. Now, something that was said and I was trying to express is it seems to be the norm that on a production knife there will be issues and as long as the company does the right thing that's ok. Well, I think there should be more expectation that the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

I don't think it's wrong or people are out of line to expect that a new knife shouldn't have to be returned. Regardless of cost but especially the most expensive ones.

Like I said earlier, if I sell a knife here in the exchange there will be a certain expectation that it is in the condition described. If I say it's NIB and it has issues how understanding would most be to the excuse that I was too busy to give it a once over? I don't think that just because I buy it off the shelf or on-line from a retailer there should be any less expectation....

Well, thanks for all the input and replies.
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You've got solid and valid points as well, my friend. There's a fine line between acceptible and not in regard to expectations, and you've raised a good topic for discussion.

I've found that with sub-$150 knives, in general, the things that equate to risky fit (not finish necessarily, like crooked blade grinds, etc.--stuff that the end user can't and shouldn't have to fix) are things like, for instance, the handles being of sandwiched G10 and stainless or ti construction. This is where you see things off-center at times, or visible gaps between liners, backspacers, you name it. I believe that it's because it's harder to accomplish near perfect fit with these materials, though they are my preferred materials. When you take 6061 aluminum, mill it out when it's soft, then harden and anodize it, yes it would seem you can achieve truly good results. Aluminum just happens to be my least favorite material in the knife world. It scratches, dings, and truly only belongs in the realm of M4/AR15 parts and flashlights, IMHO of course. :)

I guess my point is, it's handy to be handy in fixing imperfections with sub-$150 knives. That's my threshold. Anything costlier than that, I defer to warranty work. Mileages definitely vary in this arena.
 
Moosez45 said:
I don't think so.

Knives are made by people, sure, the parts are machined, but the assembly is done by people.

People are not flawless, from the foundry to the showcase, there are people involved.

I do think that where alot of it comes from, is unrealistic expectations.

Problems happen, and as long as a company backs up its product in a timely manner, then I'm good with them. And they have a customer for life. First time I hear it isn't so, I drop them like a hot plate of enchiladas. :D

The more knives a company, the more chances there are for issues.

"Warranty's Don't Work In the Field" is one that I've heard quite often, and at some point, its true, but everything can be broken. I buy knives from companies I trust, and never take an untested product to the field with me.

Moose
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Correct on all counts, save one: you should never ever drop the enchiladas ;)
 
Does anyone know if assembly quotas are the norm in the production world or do the assemblers have the latitude to make sure each knife is done right before they move to the next?
 
This is a good thread. :thumbup: I'll keep my reply short.

I find it annoying when a knife:
1- Is ground unevenly or has sloppy bevels. Sure it can be fixed with a sharpening or 2, but I don't buy a knife and sharpen it out of the box. I usually wear out the factory edge first, then I sharpen accordingly. I know some folks do this and others don't, so it's a quirk I guess for all of us. I guess expecting a knife to be sharpened properly from the factory can be too much to ask from some companies.

2- Sloppy lock up, in the sense that there is play and rattling. If I spend $250+ on a knife that is claimed to be a limited edition and the lockup is sloppy, it bothers me. Sure, I can send the knife back and risk not being able to get another one. What to do in these cases where you want the knife, but the lock up just isn't up to par?

3- Grossly uncentered blade, this to me is a sign of a lack of precision fitting. I've gotten at least 2 dozen knives ike this through the years, maybe more. If I cannot fix and center the blade myself, then that is indicative of a problem (in my view) of the fit and finish variety. I will always make efforts to center a blade, it's not worth complaining about unless the blade is truly warped or the handled don't match.

Issues like a tight pocket clip, stiff detent, Loctite are not a concern and can be remedied in a matter of minutes. However, these have been some major complaints. People have gotten pretty bent because of a pocket clip being too tight, "my knife squeaks when I open it", the detent is too strong or weak, the thumbstud/flipper doean't work so this knife sucks, etc. it's hard to agree on what makes for a legitimate QC issue as everyone has different expectations. You will see a lot ofpeople that buy an expensive knife for maybe the first time, they experience some user error like with a flipper and they are then convinced that company is is producing pure garbage. This is what we've seen a lot of here lately. A bad mechanic always blames his tools.
 
pbcg said:
I don't think it's wrong or people are out of line to expect that a new knife shouldn't have to be returned. Regardless of cost....
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I couldn't agree more. If, within minutes of taking it out of the packaging, the buyer is trying to figure out how to contact the company, someone dropped the ball big time. I'm also not prepared to give a pass for low cost. If I bought a cheap knife, I'd expect cheaper materials, less hand fitting, lower grade coatings, etc.. I don't expect grossly uneven grinds, tip ground off, the handle to fall off during use and the like. If a company cannot make a workable product at the selling price, then don't make it.

I also agree with MajorLongHorn. It's great to have access to company owners, but I have noticed that a simple question regarding a failure can bring out the you used the wrong tool for the job/bad technique/your expectations are too high crowd. I haven't seen this with the owners, it's usually the over-excited fans. People do troll for fun, so being skeptical is understandable, but faulty products also reach the field. And if you sell a knife as the most indestructable, end of the world, get you out of any situation blade, don't be surprised when people beat it into an old stump. Take care.
 
jdk1 said:
And if you sell a knife as the most indestructable, end of the world, get you out of any situation blade, don't be surprised when people beat it into an old stump. Take care.
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In those cases, sure.
But most knives aren't billed that way.
 
I think the knife industry does ship out a lot of defects. My recent experience was with my Benchmade Bradley Alias. The lock up became very poor. Keep in mind this was a brand new knife. From the looks of the lock face on the blade tang, it looks like it was just grounded poorly. I sent it back to them explaining the need to either replace the blade, or carbidize the thing. Then you have to pay to ship it, wait a few weeks....I get the knife back indicating they replaced one of the scales. It worked fine for a day, and then became worse than when I initially noticed it. I had to send it back in to their repair. What a crock.

As far as my firearms go, I've yet to get a defective pistol, or rifle. Maybe that's because each firearm is test fired prior to leaving the factory. My mossberg probably wasn't test fired, but it shoots and functions fine.....

Perhaps these large knife companies should have a guy spend a few minutes with the blade prior to shipping.
 
RevDevil said:
This is a good thread. :thumbup: I'll keep my reply short.

I find it annoying when a knife:
1- Is ground unevenly or has sloppy bevels. Sure it can be fixed with a sharpening or 2, but I don't buy a knife and sharpen it out of the box. I usually wear out the factory edge first, then I sharpen accordingly. I know some folks do this and others don't, so it's a quirk I guess for all of us. I guess expecting a knife to be sharpened properly from the factory can be too much to ask from some companies.
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I have actually seen this problem multiple times. Once on a Buck Vantage Pro and a Spyderco Endura, just off the top of my head. The Buck had a little more ground off one side than the other, most evident near the tip, and the Endura just had a sloppy, uneven final edge bevel. They both were still super sharp out of the box though, and they cut great, so I didn't worry about it. The problems are sharpening out over time. For whatever reason, I've never seen a Kershaw with uneven bevels, and I've owned more of those than any other brand. That's just my experience. I've mostly only owned their USA made models though. Maybe that makes a difference?

Uncentered blades are only annoying. I won't tolerate lock play though, especially vertically. If it wobbles and I can't adjust it away, it goes back. If the manufacturer won't fix it, I sell it.
 
Perhaps these large knife companies should have a guy spend a few minutes with the blade prior to shipping.[/QUOTE]



Best suggestion I've seen so far and what I've been wondering all along. Even with the largest companies, how long would it really take to give a knife a once over before it left the factory. Not only is it reasonable to expect but would negate most if not all the issues I've encountered....
 
pbcg said:
Perhaps these large knife companies should have a guy spend a few minutes with the blade prior to shipping.
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Best suggestion I've seen so far and what I've been wondering all along. Even with the largest companies, how long would it really take to give a knife a once over before it left the factory. Not only is it reasonable to expect but would negate most if not all the issues I've encountered....[/QUOTE]

That would be like the frog sitting in the pan with the water heating up instead of throwing it in when the water is hot.

I do agree with a Quality Control person or people though, they would just have to be honest at what they are doing or the same issues would still get through.

That would be a boring job though.. ;)
 
duro said:
Perhaps these large knife companies should have a guy spend a few minutes with the blade prior to shipping.
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That's why I inspect stuff personally before it goes up on the site. I do it because they don't. Or do, but don't do a good enough job. :o Most companies do have QC departments but I think that a lot of their workers have different levels of training and familiarity with the things nuts like us look for.
 
pbcg said:
Perhaps these large knife companies should have a guy spend a few minutes with the blade prior to shipping.
Click to expand...



Best suggestion I've seen so far and what I've been wondering all along. Even with the largest companies, how long would it really take to give a knife a once over before it left the factory. Not only is it reasonable to expect but would negate most if not all the issues I've encountered....[/QUOTE]


Ah, well, you see, knife manufacturers don't hire knife nuts, there may be a few folks there that are really into knives, but most folks that work there, only know the knife by the sum of their parts. Assembly quotas are just that, and most of them have been putting the together for a while. I had a chance to see a group of ladies putting together stockman pattern knives. At the rate of nearly two completed knives a minute. All the while gossiping and chatting as they went. The had a jig, boxes of parts, a table and a rawhide mallet each. Truly fascinating. After they were done assembling the knives, the completed knives were then buffed smooth, a quick edge thrown on them, at the rate of about 3 a minute, boxed and stacked.

Not on person in the lineup gave a rats ass what knife they were putting together. Only that they had completed products at the end.

Once you do something long enough, its just a job.

I do agree that you could put a QC person in the final stages, but if imagine 500 knives rolling out a day, thats one minute per knife for the QC person to inspect.

I've been to a few knife factories. They make alot more than 500 knives a day. So, then.you're left with spot checking or sampling. Ewwwwwww..........

I agree, QC standards should be brought up, but then the price goes up too. Then, we would start to question the increase in price.

Good thread. And civil. Who'd a thunk it.

Moosr
 
Fit and finish issues don't generally bother me as long as the customer service is good enough to back it up. Of course, this means I've pretty well stopped buy a few major brands over the years, but on the other hand I'm more willing to give a few companies the benefit of the doubt.

Oddly enough, the only company where I've *never* had to make a warranty or service claim because of wear or defect is also the company where all the most inexpensive knives I own come from - Sanrenmu. I don't know if it's because the designs are simpler and easier to manufacture, or they put the QC time in because returns of defective merchandise would probably kill their already minuscule profit margin.
 
Understandable. However, the price point on a lot of these knives is entering firearms territory. Even with a 150 dollar hi-point, which I don't own; but you still get a spent shell casing as proof that your firearm was tested and found to be in working mechanical order.

As proof positive, I'm sure if that benchmade repair worker would of spent a few extra minutes with my note, or going over the knife, it wouldn't of had to turn around and be mailed right back to them for a second go around in their repair department.
 
I think a good analogy that was used was the comparison to firearms. In that they are test fired prior to leaving the factory. It doesn't take a "Gun Nut" to know if the gun worked or not and didn't blow up.

Having a background in firearms myself I can say that a weapon never left my armory or was placed in service without through inspection.

I understand that assembly lines are just that. For most its a job, but how much does it really take to make sure at some point down the line that the knife functions properly, at least initially and there are no obvious flaws? I don't suspect much.

I still think that "We" the knife community are far too willing to except a certain degree of defects, or more then we should perhaps.

I agree with the general consensus that as long as the warranty is good or covers the problem I'm satisfied for the most part, but I also believe that we should not let loyalty or other factors prevent us from holding a company accountable. It really doesn't get much worse then opening the box of your new knife and realizing that your going to have to send it back, especially for something so obvious it should have never left the factory in the first place....

All the reasons and excuses why it did not withstanding........
 
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