Quality Control Issues in General

[Jesse B.]

I add nothing by saying this, but this is an excellent thread. Lot of thoughtful insight.

 

[FortyTwoBlades]

It honestly takes very little time to do a thorough inspection on a knife. If you have a trained eye problems jump out real fast. The key is to get a system down so you do every check every time. I've gotten pretty good and practiced at this point.

 

[Ankerson]

I think a good analogy that was used was the comparison to firearms. In that they are test fired prior to leaving the factory. It doesn't take a "Gun Nut" to know if the gun worked or not and didn't blow up.

Having a background in firearms myself I can say that a weapon never left my armory or was placed in service without through inspection.

I understand that assembly lines are just that. For most its a job, but how much does it really take to make sure at some point down the line that the knife functions properly, at least initially and there are no obvious flaws? I don't suspect much.

I still think that "We" the knife community are far too willing to except a certain degree of defects, or more then we should perhaps.

I agree with the general consensus that as long as the warranty is good or covers the problem I'm satisfied for the most part, but I also believe that we should not let loyalty or other factors prevent us from holding a company accountable. It really doesn't get much worse then opening the box of your new knife and realizing that your going to have to send it back, especially for something so obvious it should have never left the factory in the first place....

All the reasons and excuses why it did not withstanding........

Now you are getting into the politics of the working environment as in MOST people could really care less about ANYTHING other than collecting their paycheck at the end of the pay period and doing the least they can get away with and still stay employed.

To break outside of that mold it would take someone who really does care about what they are doing, but sadly those types never really last very long for various reasons so what is left are the ones who just do their job and fit into the mold above.

As it was stated in an earlier post it's just a job, just like any other job after awhile.

 

[powernoodle]

Is it just me or does there seem to be more quality control issues lately?

We each have our own data points from which we draw conclusions, but I have not observed any quality control issues from the major manufacturers whether we are talking about foreign or domestic knives. I have a slow but steady stream of Spydies, Benchmades, Kershaws, Sogs and others coming through the Powernoodle Compound, and never see a prob. I had a minor quibble with the glass breaker on a Benchmade 810 Contego several days ago, and could have ignored it, but Benchmade paid for shipping in both directions and the knife is now headed back my way. As far as I can recall, thats the only issue I have had with any knife, and even it was so nicky and picky that most folks would have ignored it (the carbide tip glass breaker was slightly chipped). I'm also not bothered by a little blade play, and will adjust my pivots for easy deployment at the expense of bank vault lockup. My point being that I don't care or notice a very small amount of play. I think that as knife snobs - I mean experts - as a group we tend to be picky and notice things like blade play and so forth. Plus, complainers are disproportionately represented on the forums because they are more compelled to start a thread than are happy campers. So I have no complaints, and if anything see an extremely highly level of design, execution and quality control - as well as customer service -from the likes of Spyderco, Benchmade and the others.

 

[Rapt_up]

There is a certain extent the corporate mentality once a company reaches a certina size or is run by business types rather than by those passionate about their product.

many business folks focus on $$ abd costs but not on the product they think they canb apply the same rationballe across any product or company and the managemnt is the same in all cases...

I work in the corporate design and manufacture world and I can teell you there is constant pressure to reduce costs and increase profit. And typically its Qc that suffers. The upper managers often beleive that they can get something cheaper and it won't be lower quality. I had a VP once tell me that there was no such thing as a cost quality tradeoff... So i asked him if he drove a Kia or a Mercedes... Doofus. He still wouldn't admit that the same rationale applied to the inputs of our product,

Once again I tend to agree with what has been said. People do complain more and the interment provides a bigger audience. Some can't wait to slam a brand or pile on. That wasn't my point or goal. I have 20 knives of a particular brand. Some from as far back as the early nineties to today. I give them all the same inspection. And of the particular brand I've had far more issues of late. that's why I posted to see what others thought.

Maybe it's just me, but maybe as I suspect as companies get larger and larger they tend to forget what got them there and let thing's slip a bit. Now, something that was said and I was trying to express is it seems to be the norm that on a production knife there will be issues and as long as the company does the right thing that's ok. Well, I think there should be more expectation that the problem doesn't exist in the first place.

I don't think it's wrong or people are out of line to expect that a new knife shouldn't have to be returned. Regardless of cost but especially the most expensive ones.

Like I said earlier, if I sell a knife here in the exchange there will be a certain expectation that it is in the condition described. If I say it's NIB and it has issues how understanding would most be to the excuse that I was too busy to give it a once over? I don't think that just because I buy it off the shelf or on-line from a retailer there should be any less expectation....

Well, thanks for all the input and replies.

Sending items back for warantee drives home to the management the cost of lowering quality. I always costs more to fix a problem than it does to not have it to begin with.

 

[Ankerson]

There is a certain extent the corporate mentality once a company reaches a certina size or is run by business types rather than by those passionate about their product.

many business folks focus on $$ abd costs but not on the product they think they canb apply the same rationballe across any product or company and the managemnt is the same in all cases...

I work in the corporate design and manufacture world and I can teell you there is constant pressure to reduce costs and increase profit. And typically its Qc that suffers. The upper managers often beleive that they can get something cheaper and it won't be lower quality. I had a VP once tell me that there was no such thing as a cost quality tradeoff... So i asked him if he drove a Kia or a Mercedes... Doofus. He still wouldn't admit that the same rationale applied to the inputs of our product,



Sending items back for warantee drives home to the management the cost of lowering quality. I always costs more to fix a problem than it does to not have it to begin with.

And they never would until the bonuses started to shrink.... Then they would start to get some fire under their seat..... And start looking for other people to blame...... Usually the type that really cares about what is going on, but is a threat to them or someone they know.

Most VP types I have run into in the past 8 years or so are just numbers crunchers and either have no clue or don't care about much that goes on below their level.

 

[duro]

We each have our own data points from which we draw conclusions, but I have not observed any quality control issues from the major manufacturers whether we are talking about foreign or domestic knives. I have a slow but steady stream of Spydies, Benchmades, Kershaws, Sogs and others coming through the Powernoodle Compound, and never see a prob. I had a minor quibble with the glass breaker on a Benchmade 810 Contego several days ago, and could have ignored it, but Benchmade paid for shipping in both directions and the knife is now headed back my way. As far as I can recall, thats the only issue I have had with any knife, and even it was so nicky and picky that most folks would have ignored it (the carbide tip glass breaker was slightly chipped). I'm also not bothered by a little blade play, and will adjust my pivots for easy deployment at the expense of bank vault lockup. My point being that I don't care or notice a very small amount of play. I think that as knife snobs - I mean experts - as a group we tend to be picky and notice things like blade play and so forth. Plus, complainers are disproportionately represented on the forums because they are more compelled to start a thread than are happy campers. So I have no complaints, and if anything see an extremely highly level of design, execution and quality control - as well as customer service -from the likes of Spyderco, Benchmade and the others.

Interesting, I had a new Alias with poor lock up and was simply told to mail it in. No offer to cover the shipping...Benchmade expected me to pay for the shipping. It was only when it had to go back a second time, that I basically had to bring up that they are to pay for shipping and no it wasn't going to be their turtle slow UPS ground. Perhaps given the situation, and what will equate to over a month without the knife, I should request that they reimburse me for initial shipping costs.

 

[RevDevil]

I have actually seen this problem multiple times. Once on a Buck Vantage Pro and a Spyderco Endura, just off the top of my head. The Buck had a little more ground off one side than the other, most evident near the tip, and the Endura just had a sloppy, uneven final edge bevel. They both were still super sharp out of the box though, and they cut great, so I didn't worry about it. The problems are sharpening out over time. For whatever reason, I've never seen a Kershaw with uneven bevels, and I've owned more of those than any other brand. That's just my experience. I've mostly only owned their USA made models though. Maybe that makes a difference?

Uncentered blades are only annoying. I won't tolerate lock play though, especially vertically. If it wobbles and I can't adjust it away, it goes back. If the manufacturer won't fix it, I sell it.

I've gotten a few Kershaw and ZT knives that appear to have been sharpened much more on one side than the other. The worst was a knife that looked like it had gotten ground near the heel way, wy too much, then everything was cool to the tip. Very strange.

I've had a couple LE knives that had warped blades, literally a crooked blade. When sent back for evaluation, I was told there was nothing that could be done and the knife was shipped back to me. I won't mention the company, but it was really disappointed.

 

[pbcg]

Now you are getting into the politics of the working environment as in MOST people could really care less about ANYTHING other than collecting their paycheck at the end of the pay period and doing the least they can get away with and still stay employed.

To break outside of that mold it would take someone who really does care about what they are doing, but sadly those types never really last very long for various reasons so what is left are the ones who just do their job and fit into the mold above.

As it was stated in an earlier post it's just a job, just like any other job after awhile.

You know, I agree. From the prospective of the worker you are absolutely right. Unfortunate but true. Personal pride in ones work isn't something you see all that often these days but I don't think it has to be that deep or complicated.

From the prospective of the owner / operator, if you want my business then you show that you care, at least enough to produce a quality product or you won't be getting my continued business.

I don't think asking that the most basic elements of QC be implemented raise to the level of "Raising the Bar" It's just good business and what separates the bad companies from the good. And the good from the great. As the consumer you decide what is ultimately acceptable to you.

I do think though a companies work ethic flows from the top down...

I made it a point not to name the brands I've had issues with as of late. As stated they all resolved my issues to my satisfaction and showed themselves to be top notch. I was just noticing in the last few months or so I've returned more knives for warranty service then I have in years. In fact up until most recently I had only returned a knife once. I guess I was lucky.

From what I'm seeing and reading here I'm not the only one. The question is, is this the norm or as asked more then usual. I'm getting that it is the norm.

 

[ono724]

That would be high.
I haven't noticed it at that rate though.
Also, remember how people are far more apt to whine than say good things.
The advertising idea was that a satisfied customer will tell a couple of people, whereas a disatisfied customer will tell 10 or 20.

And people just seem to be whinier these days, and that's coming from someone who was spoiled enough growing up.

People think crime has gone up (it hasn't). People thingk quality control has gone down...it probably hasn't either.
The internet and inter-linked media just allows people from all over the planet to bitch at the same time now, which creates a perception that things are worse.

You really hit the nail on the head- with the internet, there is just too much information out there. It's next to impossible to sort out the good from the BS. And it's truly amazing how many people will come out of the woodwork to whine about something when it can be done anonymously.

 

[MikeC]

Lots of valid points and a real good thread one of the best I've read in a while. I can say this I've bought 5 Cold Steel American Lawman's, 5 Kershaw Packrat Orange Handle plain edge and 5 Ontario Rat 1's desert tan handle plain edge and everyone of them has come darn near perfect out of the box. I've checked each and everyone the second they came in and function, fit and finish on all of them was outstanding. Now flip the switch, remember first these are all <$50.00 knives 15 in total.

I've bought 2 Buck Mayo TNT's and I've had to look through about 15 of those to find 2 that were consistent in build size, quality, etc. I even posted a thread about this in the Buck forum on this site sometime back. To be fair I had found another one that was also good meaning function, fit and finish all checked out to my personal criteria (perfect) but I didn't pull the trigger quick enough and someone else snatched it up. So the ratio on that knife a made in America by an outstanding company in collaboration with a reputable maker (Tom Mayo) was 1 in 5 or 20% as opposed to the ones referenced above which were 1/1 for 5 in a row or 100%.

I think it is random, certain makes and models for a whole litany of different reasons are just going to come up short, it could be material defects, poor heat treat, problems with equipment, problems with employees, etc. There are some many variables in the production cycle of a product such as a titanium frame lock or locking folding knife that sooner or later despite your best effort your going to run across a bad batch or turn out a bad batch. That is just a reality in the medium to large scale production manufacturing business, it just is. That said I do think as a community myself included although I try to remind myself its not a perfect world nor is the market for anything be it knives or otherwise a perfect animal, but we do tend to have unrealistic expectations. An example of this is the whole hard use folder craze, whereby huge segments of our community are expecting knives built like tanks that can pry open car doors and locks that last forever. These kinds of unrealistic expectations tend to spill over into other areas such as perfection in medium to large scale production manufactured knives. I'm guilty of it to, reference my criteria above. Didn't mean to ramble just wanted to provide a look at this from another angle, I hope I was able to do that and didn't get off topic.

 

[Ankerson]

You know, I agree. From the prospective of the worker you are absolutely right. Unfortunate but true. Personal pride in ones work isn't something you see all that often these days but I don't think it has to be that deep or complicated.

From the prospective of the owner / operator, if you want my business then you show that you care, at least enough to produce a quality product or you won't be getting my continued business.

I don't think asking that the most basic elements of QC be implemented raise to the level of "Raising the Bar" It's just good business and what separates the bad companies from the good. And the good from the great. As the consumer you decide what is ultimately acceptable to you.

I do think though a companies work ethic flows from the top down...

I made it a point not to name the brands I've had issues with as of late. As stated they all resolved my issues to my satisfaction and showed themselves to be top notch. I was just noticing in the last few months or so I've returned more knives for warranty service then I have in years. In fact up until most recently I had only returned a knife once. I guess I was lucky.

From what I'm seeing and reading here I'm not the only one. The question is, is this the norm or as asked more then usual. I'm getting that it is the norm.

Yes, I also believe that the work ethic flows from the top down, sadly most of the top are only worried about their bonus checks and their own pockets (MONEY) rather than the quality of the company or the products/services they provide. They stay around long enough to get everything they can out of it before moving on or getting moved out.

Back on topic.

I don't believe it's the norm that the knife companies put out a lot of flawed work, it's just some things do slip past their QC.

 

[Ankerson]

You really hit the nail on the head- with the internet, there is just too much information out there. It's next to impossible to sort out the good from the BS. And it's truly amazing how many people will come out of the woodwork to whine about something when it can be done anonymously.

They do it to draw attention to themselves or to stir up problems/drama on the forums.

When a phone call or email to the companies would solve the issue...

 

[pbcg]

Yes, I also believe that the work ethic flows from the top down, sadly most of the top are only worried about their bonus checks and their own pockets (MONEY) rather than the quality of the company or the products/services they provide. They stay around long enough to get everything they can out of it before moving on or getting moved out.

Back on topic.

I don't believe it's the norm that the knife companies put out a lot of flawed work, it's just some things do slip past their QC.

Fair enough, I can accept that.

Good discussion though.....

 

[stevomiller]

Hmm, leadership and company culture fix these issues. Companies that want quality, achieve it; and still at price point. If a company designs, hires, trains, inspects, PIP and fires with quality a priority ~ they will consistantly achieve their goal. Simple as that. Been part of it from tech, supervisor, engineer and QC.

 

[DedRok]

Maybe my expectations are low, but this year alone I've bought 30+ knives made from all types of countries and haven't had to send one away yet. My knives cost on average $50-150.

I'm pretty anal about blade centering, ect... but thankfuly there are things that you can do to change how the knife works. I've had to dunk a couple of my brand new knives in soapy water and disassemble them to make them how I think they should feel and act.

The best thing you can do is buy a knife that has been made for a year-plus. That way most of the QC issues should be resolved and you can read reviews on what other people have experienced with them.

My only gripe with "USA" made knives, I've noticed lately that some of my newer USA made Spydercos have a weird G10 effect. It gives this weird checkered look under certain lighting and angles. I don't know why but it really bothers me -- I haven't really searched it up on the forums, but I wonder if its just me that noticed this.

This effect is on both my Native V and the Manix 2 XL. In this photo you can see it on the XL more-so. This definitley doesn't effect the knife, but it makes the G10 look more shiney and plasticy, which somehow tells my brain to think that its cheap and I don't end up using the knife.

 

[jill jackson]

The recent run of ZT 0780's sure were just pushed out the door, then they dropped the model right away. I'm sure many will say, oh no that's not true. But, we have bought 3 of them and all have problems. One was so bad sending it back to ZT did not get it repaired, because they couldn't repair it. That's how bad they shipped it off. Why would they let it go out the door like that? Somebody had to know what they were shipping out.

Blade flex when locked open so bad it took hardly any pressure to see the blade moving, blade so off centered it rubbed one liner, (and no it couldn't be adjusted) metal hanging off the pommel cut outs so bad it looked shoddy, clip holes on the butt end misaligned you couldn't even start a screw in them. That was just the one my Dad received, the two I have are fine other than the butt end screw holes are not lined up. (which really isn't acceptable on a knife costing that much) You have to wonder just who gave approval for these knives to leave the factory? (I will add the 0350 he was sent to replace it was just perfect, so yes they can and do great work, my 0560 is too)

When my Dad talked to the rep at ZT he told him they had a problem with some of the 0780's. (less than 300 made) -Yet they were shipped out anyway? I read about others having problems with theirs, too. One guy bought 3 like we did and had problems with all 3.

So, yeah in some cases the factories just plain screw up and QC isn't looking it seems. They do stand behind it when they are called on it, but what if they aren't? Somebody just suffers with a knife with bad fit and poor lock-up? Shouldn't happen in the first place, not with knives costing what they do.

 

[singularity35]

I have always maintained that the big 3 can do better. Especially since I have seen a lot of chinese K/O's that a friend sells in his store. I have been there when shipments arrive and out of maybe 300 knives(last time I was there) less than 30 are badly flawed that they can't be sold. If cheap labor(I'm sure shoddy factory equipment too) can do this on these $5 knives, why can't the big 3 do it?

 

[jill jackson]

Spyderco sure set the bar high with their Taiwan produced models. I used to resist buying one just because I thought, they shouldn't produce high end models there. After seeing them in person, it was another story.

 

[VictorKilo]

Unhappy customers will usually be the most vocal since everyone else is too busy enjoying their purchase to spend the time leaving positive feedback. That said, I've gotten a few mutts this year - and if they were the first I'd bought from that particular company I wouldn't give them another dime. For a company to have gone international cranking out product, it's safe to say they've done the cost analysis and that it's more efficient to keep production high and handle warranty issues for the serious flaws and picky folks as opposed to individual inspection on the way out the door. More production means they stay in business to put out more models to satisfy our insatiable thirst.

I'd like everything to show up within my tolerances but when you buy anything sight unseen you're taking that chance for the convenience of not picking it out personally. The $60-$90 area is where I've found the most problems with a couple outliers at the $200+ range; excluding a $22 Condor (still a steal and nothing some sandpaper can't fix), all my budget knives have had great build quality. Never had a faulty lock or structural damage that needed to be sent back, but it is a disappointment when a slipjoint shows up with gaps/crooked lock-up/etc... and there's no easy fix.

A higher price tag relative to materials should definitely mean tighter tolerances and there's no excuse to the contrary from a purely consumer standpoint. Paying extra for a limited edition or to cover the licensing fees for a custom-gone-production model is fine in my book, and I'd hope companies would treat such releases with the attention required since it's the knife nuts that scramble for those and they know we squeak like a dry pivot.

All in all, every knife I've bought has worked fine at its intended purpose as a tool. If I wanted something pretty, I'd buy a Faberge egg.