Question About Snakes

Boru13

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I have read and heard different opinions on what to do if bitten by a snake while in the wilderness and other regions also. Some say to use some type of suction device others say it does more harm than good, the only advice everyone seems to agree on is to seek immediate medical attention. My question is this, if your in the wilds alone, miles or even days from getting medical attention what do you do if your bitten by a snake? Is there any kind of treatment that you can do for yourself or are you pretty much SOL.
 
In certain cases the suction is helpful. The reason that so many places say it does more harm then good, when people go to cut them selves to suction out the venom they will cut too deep causing farther problems. As you said when you are so far away from help causing MORE problems from a snake bite that could be not even poisonous, or if it was may not of sent the venom into you or enough to harm you is not in your best intrest to survive.


Quick link, this is just the treatment part, theres more to the article

http://www.fda.gov/Fdac/features/995_snakes.html

First Aid for Snakebites

Over the years, snakebite victims have been exposed to all kinds of slicing, freezing and squeezing as stopgap measures before receiving medical care. Some of these approaches, like cutting into a bite and attempting to suck out the venom, have largely fallen out of favor.

"In the past five or 10 years, there's been a backing off in first aid from really invasive things like making incisions," says Arizona physician David Hardy, M.D., who studies snakebite epidemiology. "This is because we now know these things can do harm and we don't know if they really change the outcome."

Many health-care professionals embrace just a few basic first-aid techniques. According to the American Red Cross, these steps should be taken:

* Wash the bite with soap and water.
* Immobilize the bitten area and keep it lower than the heart.
* Get medical help.
I will also add that all jewelry and like items should be removed from the person, if your fingers or such start to swell, it will have to be cut off. Or will cause great pain.

"The main thing is to get to a hospital and don't delay," says Hardy. "Most bites don't occur in real isolated situations, so it is feasible to get prompt [medical care]." He describes cases in Arizona where people have caught rattlesnakes for sport and gotten bitten. "They waited until they couldn't stand the pain anymore and finally went to the hospital after the venom had been in there a few hours. But by then, they'd lost an opportunity for [effective treatment]," which increased the odds of long-term complications. Some medical professionals, along with the American Red Cross, cautiously recommend two other measures:

* If a victim is unable to reach medical care within 30 minutes, a bandage, wrapped two to four inches above the bite, may help slow venom. The bandage should not cut off blood flow from a vein or artery. A good rule of thumb is to make the band loose enough that a finger can slip under it.
* A suction device may be placed over the bite to help draw venom out of the wound without making cuts. Suction instruments often are included in commercial snakebite kits.


Because not all snakebites, including those from the same species, are equally dangerous, doctors sometimes face a dilemma over whether or not to administer antivenin. Venomous snakes, even dangerous ones like the Eastern diamondback, don't always release venom when they bite. Other snakes may release too small an amount to pose a hazard.


How NOT to Treat a Snakebite


Though US medical professionals may not agree on every aspect of what to do for snakebite first aid, they are nearly unanimous in their views of what not to do. Among their recommendations:

* No ice or any other type of cooling on the bite. Research has shown this to be potentially harmful.
* No tourniquets. This cuts blood flow completely and may result in loss of the affected limb.
* No electric shock. This method is under study and has yet to be proven effective. It could harm the victim.
* No incisions in the wound. Such measures have not been proven useful and may cause further injury.
 
pressure bandage, write down as much info as you can (time and type of snake) get to antivenom asap
 
I would go with the pressure dressing and worst case IF I was by myself and knew that I was not going to be able to reach any kind of medical treatment in a short period I would use the tourniquet and a small cut to bleed it out some. Better to loose an appendage than my life.
 
Tourniquets-when used more as a pressure bandage and not a stop all, are ok like the one described high up, you do not want to stop arterial blood flow! So make sure it is done right. The cut would make things worse part of the problem with snake bites, due to vascular toxins which damage the walls of the blood vessels and inhibit blood clotting. Look at that last part, making cuts while not able to stop blood flow is not a good thing!

Remember only 8-15 people die of snake bits a year out of like 8,000! and half of those refused treatment. People mostly die from advanced signs of shock then they do of venoms. Causeing more shock by improper tourniquets and cuts to the PT is not a good thing.


Also you must not move around alot, keep your heart rate down.
 
Ok for snake bites you really need to know what kinda snake it is and what kinda venom it has. For example the treatment between a rattle snake and a coral snake are complete opposites. You want the rattle snake venom to go through out your body so your entire body and take the blow not just the area you got bit. For a coral snake you want to ice it and pressure wrap it so the venom doesn't spread; since the venom is a Neurotoxin. Basically you want to do the research on your own and from a credible source since the outcome could be a limb or life if you get it wrong.
 
For a coral snake you want to ice it

I can not find any source for that. Looking up medical papers on line and books all say no ice at all. Ice may reduce pain but thats it. If ice does stop the venom, as soon as its removed the venom goes to full strength. Among other reason its should not be used. If you found that some where could you please tell me so i can see it. Thanks



looking longer i have found this http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G1-5117850.html


Likewise, cryotherapy (cold treatment) should no longer beadministered. Popular in the 1950s and 1960s, this treatment involved using ice water to cool down the bitten part--either as a first-aid measure or a subsequent treatment. Not only does the immersion in cold water not alter the course of a venomous snakebite, it can also prove extremely dangerous.

Prolonged exposure to such low temperatures causes damageto the circulatory system that can prove irreversible. Russell knows of 120 cases of amputations in the United States that resulted from cryotherapy for snakebite.
 
I am pretty sure that is what my WFR Instructor told me and the reason he gave for it was to slow the movement of the venom through out the body. I would say that compression is probably better than cold treatment, and your cold treatment should be just that a treatment. Don't go overboard with it.
 
Remaining calm is the most important. Next is probally knowing for sure what kind of snake it is, A guy i worked with daughter got bitten by a snake, she was around 6 or 8 years old. she went running into the house to tell her dad. He took her to the hospital and they said they needed to know the kind of snake to administir antivenom. so he went home and look all over the area she said she was when she was bitten but could not find anything. so the little girl ended up waiting through this ordeal without antivenom. keep calm. Pat
 
My buddy who is an ER doctor went to a wilderness medicine seminar and before he went I told him to find out the lowdown on this.

Basically he said all of the speakers said there wasn't anything you can do. That most of the stuff we've always read about doesn't work.

So probably the best thing is to get out of the woods and to treatment.

Most people don't die from snakebite. I would assume if it was a couple days walk out you would just be super sick and would have to drag yourself out.

I have a friend who was bitten twice by copperheads. He didn't go to the doctor and said he stayed drunk for the first 12 hours to kill the pain. He had massive swelling but his skin didn't break open. One of the times was sleeping under a tarp and it crawled up next to him sleeing:eek:
 
I think one thing to remember is that like 80% of bites are dry, where no venom is injected. Cutting and sucking could really make things worse if there was no need in the first place. Cody Lundin swears by the Sawyer Extractor
 
ahh dont tell me that, i can just picture waking up next to a snake, one more reason i like tents more then tarps!


Aquacopter

Thanks for answering, maybe he knows something i have not found. I am a firstresponder with EMT training. But i have not taken a W course yet, not that i dont know a lot of over lap, i am sure there is plenty to learn. I plan on getting W once my EMT comes through. One question though were do you get ice when hiking lol. I have seen some info on applying a "cool" pack over it, but have also seen lots that say no to that to. I tend to stick to what i find on Medial sites, and sites ending with .edu or .gov or .university, and rely less on .com
 
Two things to think about:
1. Several years ago an MD on public radio said the best treatment for a snakebite is the key to a car that works.

2. Most (80% of venomous bites happen to people who are a) intoxicated, or b) messing with snakes (or both). I think that was in Field and Stream last year.
Richard
 
I think one thing to remember is that like 80% of bites are dry, where no venom is injected. Cutting and sucking could really make things worse if there was no need in the first place. Cody Lundin swears by the Sawyer Extractor

Two things to think about:
1. Several years ago an MD on public radio said the best treatment for a snakebite is the key to a car that works.

2. Most (80% of venomous bites happen to people who are a) intoxicated, or b) messing with snakes (or both). I think that was in Field and Stream last year.
Richard

A couple good points.

Adult snakes know they forego several meals if they inject you. Usually a "warning" bite is what you get unless you are messing with the snake.

The statistic I always heard for most bitten demographic was "under 21, drinking and harassing the snake."

I have encountered rattlers more times than I can count and was never in a situation where I could have been bitten.

Just consider yourself lucky you don't live in Africa. This is what a cobra can do to your arm.

venin_bras.jpg
 
I remember reading some years ago that a stun gun applied to the bite area of a poison snake bite "kills" the poison and recovery is fast with no effects except for 2 puncture marks from the electrodes....and fang marks!!! This seemed like a extreme method but if it works...?
 
That has been debunked, many of the articles i read said it was worth less. Many third world places started using stun guns to shock the poison. Does not work.
 
ahh dont tell me that, i can just picture waking up next to a snake, one more reason i like tents more then tarps!

I do a a lot of backpacking/hiking in central PA, and prefer a tent
do to the nasty mosquitoes. I've run into a lot of
Timber Rattlers and Copperheads..wouldn't want to sleep with one
 
The main problem with snakebite discussions in the past is the fact that people who are educated or biased intervene and the discussion goes right in the toilet. They argue from an intellectually dishonest position when it comes to the Sawyer Extractor - they speak as if it is a "cut and suck" method and it will damage tissue, it will not damage tissue.

If you are in snake country, you should have a Sawyer Extractor on you, period. The Copperhead, Water Mocassin and Rattlesnakes all have the natural version of two hypodermic syringes for fangs. If you apply the Sawyer Extractor immediately after you kill the snake, you WILL get some venom out of the abcsess(es) formed by the bite. Some snakes have already used up their venom but if you are sensitive, even venom residue can cause severe problems. Perhaps the hit was only one fang or the snake had broken off a fang at some point and you only get one hit - doesn't matter.

Seek medical attention immediately.

If you are out in the sticks, the Sawyer Extractor is the only sane choice to make when faced with envenomation.

Stay calm, radio or phone for help, perhaps you will be choppered out. If that is not possible, walk...slowly, and utilize the Sawyer.

Everything else is B.S. in my opinion.
 
One other point you might want to consider is fluid intake. Many north american snakes have have hemolytic components to their toxins and enzymes that breakdown muscle tissue. If you can't get treatment right away, this can mean serious trouble for your kidneys not only from obstruction caused by lysed RBCs, but also due to a condition called rhabdomyolysis. By serious trouble, I mean even if you survive the snake bite, you could have permanent kidney damage. So drink lots of water, AS LONG AS YOU'RE STILL PEEING OK.
 
If you are in snake country, you should have a Sawyer Extractor on you, period.

This is wrong. Peer reviewed studies have clearly demonstrated that the Sawyer Extractor does not extract venom from the body. For example, see:

Suction for venomous snakebite A study of “mock venom” extraction in a human model .
Annals of Emergency Medicine , Volume 43 , Issue 2 , Pages 181 - 186
M . Alberts

Abstract:

"We determine the percentage of mock venom recovered by a suction device (Sawyer Extractor pump) in a simulated snakebite in human volunteers.

A mock venom (1 mL normal saline solution, 5.0 mg albumin, 2.5 mg aggregated albumin) radioactively labeled with 1 mCi of technetium was injected with a curved 16-gauge hypodermic needle 1 cm into the right lateral lower leg of 8 supine male volunteers aged 28 to 51 years. The Sawyer Extractor pump was applied after a 3-minute delay, and the blood removed by suction was collected after an additional 15 minutes. A 1991 Siemens Diacam was used to take measurements of the radioactive counts extracted and those remaining in the leg and body.

The “envenomation load,” as measured by mean radioactivity in the leg after injection, was 89,895 counts/min. The mean radioactivity found in the blood extracted in the 15 minutes of suction was 38.5 counts/min (95% confidence interval [CI] −33 to 110 counts/min), representing 0.04% of the envenomation load. The postextraction leg count was less than the envenomation load by 1,832 counts/min (95% CI −3,863 to 200 counts/min), representing a 2.0% decrease in the total body venom load.

The Sawyer Extractor pump removed bloody fluid from our simulated snakebite wounds but removed virtually no mock venom, which suggests that suction is unlikely to be an effective treatment for reducing the total body venom burden after a venomous snakebite."

If you are messing about with an extractor, you are failing to apply the correct treatment. This requires application of a firm but not constricting pressure bandage from below the bite along as much of the limb as possible, keeping the patient calm and transport to hospital as soon as possible. The wound should not be washed because the venom on the skin will be needed to identify the type of snake in cases where the identity is uncertain.
 
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