Question About Snakes

[Don Rearic]

And you are a hardhead, as usual, that doesn't read. I'm not talking about a Copperhead bite in the backyard but actually being in the wilderness.

So, the crap we get from the three-quarter-of-a-million-dollar snakebite treatment people is - DIE IF YOU CAN'T GET TO US.

I don't really care what they did in a lab. When they bring a rattler in there and let it bite one of the scribblers and then it doesn't work, I'll be much more trusting of them.

 

[CaptInsano]

And you are a hardhead, as usual, that doesn't read. I'm not talking about a Copperhead bite in the backyard but actually being in the wilderness.

So, the crap we get from the three-quarter-of-a-million-dollar snakebite treatment people is - DIE IF YOU CAN'T GET TO US.

I don't really care what they did in a lab. When they bring a rattler in there and let it bite one of the scribblers and then it doesn't work, I'll be much more trusting of them.

Do you feel the extractor is somehow more functional in the wilderness than in a lab?

 

[EvanG]

To treat snakebite out bush, a pressure bandage will do so much more good than a sawyer extractor. You are not applying a tourniquet, but just slowing the spread of venom. In the united States you are dealing with rattlesnakes 99% of the time. All rattlesnake species except for one in this country are hemotoxic. The application of a pressure bandage will slow the spread of venom and keep the tissue damage to a minimum. While you may not die from a rattlesnake bite, I assure you that the swelling and subsequent necrosis will not be fun.

Mojave rattlesnakes are the ones you really have to worry about and where being able to identify at least this species will be handy. These snakes have developed a cocktail of hemo and neurotoxic venom. But, again, application of a pressure bandage and staying calm until you can get treatment is your best option.

Once venom is injected into your system, theres nothing you can do about it except for slow it down. If using a sawyer extractor makes you feel better about being bitten, use it, it definitely wont hurt anything. But, be prepared to apply a pressure bandage afterwards. Better to lose a finger than your arm.

Staying calm is by far the most important aspect of snakebite treatment.

 

[Don Rearic]

Do you feel the extractor is somehow more functional in the wilderness than in a lab?

From an E-mail. You will see the flow of the mails...

I am a paramedic for Williamson County EMS of Williamson County, Texas.

I have been working with a group called the Heart of Texas Snake Handlers. They work (and play) with Diamondback Rattlesnakes and hold sacking championships yearly in my area. I have been their on-scene paramedic for 14 years and have seen many bites.

The guys (and gals) use nothing but the Sawyer Extractor Kit and are able to get a considerable amount of venom out of the bites. This doesn't mean they don't seek medical attention but it does lessen the severity of the resulting problems. If they don't get any venom out of the wound it doesn't mean it was a dry bite, but it is a good indication.

They usually will use two or three extractors, having a fresh one available while a used one is being cleaned. We clean the adapters with Coca-Cola first and rinse them with water. It's amazing how coke strips the venom from the plastic.

Hope this information will be of use to you and your readers.

Butch Dennis, Lt.
Support Services
Williamson County EMS

***


Butch,

There has been some controversy surrounding the Sawyer Extractor, that it damages tissue nearly as much as the old "Cutter" kits where you X-cut and apply suction, etc. This makes no sense to me whatsoever. Do you have any information on the Sawyer destroying tissue?

Also, do you mind if I re-post your E-mails on this matter?

Thanks for writing, it confirms other things I have heard about the Sawyer.

Don

***

Don,

I have followed the people I have worked on to the hospital and thru their treatment. The doctors at the hospital (Scott and White in Temple, Tx) ask how much venom we got out of the wounds and are always amazed at the amount.

Nowhere around here is there any question about the Sawyer kit causing additional damage. It doesn't even cause a bruise on the skin when we demonstrate the kit for the audience. And we usually do 6 to 8 demonstrations per day for the weekend.

I don't claim to be any type of expert, but from having observed and helped treat over 30 bites (don't know the exact number) I have no trouble recommending the Sawyer Extractor kit for most any kind of bite; from bee stings up.

And yes, you have my permission to re-post this information any way you wish.

Butch

I trust people that don't trust in "science" and "medicine" too much, I'm sorry to say. That's not to say that I wouldn't go to the hospital if I were bit, but if you are out in the middle of nowhere...

Now, do I have to do a screen capture of the E-mails so I don't get accused of making this up or what?

Yes, I trust him more than a gaggle of lab-minions.

 

[CaptInsano]

From an E-mail. You will see the flow of the mails...



I trust people that don't trust in "science" and "medicine" too much, I'm sorry to say. That's not to say that I wouldn't go to the hospital if I were bit, but if you are out in the middle of nowhere...

Now, do I have to do a screen capture of the E-mails so I don't get accused of making this up or what?

Yes, I trust him more than a gaggle of lab-minions.

So you feel the results were different because the lab didn't use at least 3 extractors in continuous succession? How was the paramedic able to discern the difference between venom and the rest of the blood and drainage from the wounds in the field? I don't think anyone cares if you corroborate the undocumented, unquantified testimony of some guy or not.

 

[Don Rearic]

I don't really care about a bunch of overeducated masturbators in a lab, either. I really don't. You apparently don't even know what an abscess is. The medical "study" cited could apparently re-write teenage years and dermatology in one sitting. In other words, when you have an abscess, you can put pressure on it and drain it. That doesn't mean you get all of the venom but what you get might mean the difference to making it to the medical personnel that so many put so much faith in...and not making it.

EVERY time this is discussed, people always say the same garbage, every time. For one thing, they conveniently forget that in most cases we are talking about a situation where medical attention is NOT available, in which case, according to the pointyheads, YOU DIE.

You want to die from it? Be my guest. Even if I only get, literally, three drops of venom out, it's worth the $15.00 to get a Sawyer and worth the few ounces and the space a pack of cigarettes would take to carry it with me. Why? Because those three drops of venom might have been the difference between me making it out and not making it out.

But you? You would argue from an intellectually dishonest position anyway because if a ParaMedic said the Sawyer sucked, then all of that EMT's studying and testing and experience would trump anything I had to say, I am 100% positive of this.

You put your faith in the saline, I'll put my faith in a few that have used it. I'll put my faith in the fact that VACUUM applied to an abscess, especially the pocket that has just formed, will get some of the venom out.

 

[CaptInsano]

I don't really care about a bunch of overeducated masturbators in a lab, either. I really don't. You apparently don't even know what an abscess is.

Yeah, I do.

The medical "study" cited could apparently re-write teenage years and dermatology in one sitting.

How so?

In other words, when you have an abscess, you can put pressure on it and drain it.

Certainly. I don't think anyone disputed that. But you aren't going to get a return of snake venom. You will get a return consisting of various degrees of serosanguinous to sanguinous drainage, particularly with the presence of any hemolytic and myolytic toxin. I would like to know how your paramedic decided how much venom was actually being extracted. That sounds like a reasonable question, doesn't it?

EVERY time this is discussed, people always say the same garbage, every time. For one thing, they conveniently forget that in most cases we are talking about a situation where medical attention is NOT available, in which case, according to the pointyheads, YOU DIE.

You want to die from it? Be my guest. Even if I only get, literally, three drops of venom out, it's worth the $15.00 to get a Sawyer and worth the few ounces and the space a pack of cigarettes would take to carry it with me. Why? Because those three drops of venom might have been the difference between me making it out and not making it out.

I wouldn't dispute that.

But you? You would argue from an intellectually dishonest position anyway because if a ParaMedic said the Sawyer sucked, then all of that EMT's studying and testing and experience would trump anything I had to say, I am 100% positive of this.

Really? I would argue from a more intellectually dishonest point than someone who uses a crystal ball to tell other people what they think and what they would argue under hypothetical conditions? That sounds pretty laughable when put into perspective, doesn't it?

You put your faith in the saline, I'll put my faith in a few that have used it. I'll put my faith in the fact that VACUUM applied to an abscess, especially the pocket that has just formed, will get some of the venom out.

I think you may be confused. The study performed confirmed that a vacuum applied to the wound would get some of the venom out. However, we have conflicting portrayals of the effectiveness of this method. All you have been asked about is the reasoning for this conflict. You were asked to explain why the extractor could have performed more effectively in the field, or conversely, less effectively in the lab. Not only have you completely failed to do so(well, IDK that I would call it failure because you haven't even attempted to address the question), but you have accumulated more sand in your vagina over simple questions than anyone I have encountered in recent times. Why is that?

 

[Don Rearic]

If it gets any venom out, it's a good thing. If you think that is a bad thing, say so. If you think it wouldn't make a difference then you must certainly agree that there is no real "point" where there is a lethal dose, debilitating dose and non-lethal dose of venom. If you do agree with that, then you must surely say that the Sawyer is worth a try and that it could save your life.

As for the sand in the vagina comment, hey, whatever floats your fantasy, homo.

 

[Wild Weasel]

you have accumulated more sand in your vagina over simple questions than anyone I have encountered in recent times. Why is that?

Probably, like a whole bunch of us who have been reading, if not posting here for a very long time, this is a recurring issue argued about by people who don't know what they're talking about. The "sand in the vagina" accumulates over time, which is what spurs me to post tonight. (I don't even remember the last time I posted here.) Which I guess makes you the insignificant final grain of sand who's accumulation force me to douch out of my vagina.

Now don't you wish you'd chosen a different analogy?

Screw all the studies guys. Screw the tests, the experts, the paramedics and doctors, I don't care about any of that crap. I lead a very active outdoor life and I am so allergic to stings that merely having a wasp bounce off my hand in flight without stinging me, causes localized redness, swelling, and intense itching.

I have used the Sawyer Extractor so many times I've literally worn one out and am currently in need of a new one. If it has not saved my life, I am absolutely certain it has saved me a great deal of discomfort, pain, and at least one trip to the hospital.

They work.

They work.

They work.

How many times does it have to be said?

If you don't want to carry one, fine. Don't. Take your chances, take your lumps just like all the rest of us.

But please stop crapping all over something you obviously have no first hand experience with simply so you can feel like some sort of "expert" The people who know the truth can tell you don't know what you're talking about no matter how many studies you cite.

 

[Lycosa]

What do you do for lightning strike? Your chances of being struck by lightning are greater than being struck by a snake. Stay calm and git yer azz to a horsepistol!! You'll be fine!

 

[CaptInsano]

Which I guess makes you the insignificant final grain of sand who's accumulation force me to douch out of my vagina.

Now don't you wish you'd chosen a different analogy?

No, I like this one.

 

[CaptInsano]

Screw all the studies guys. Screw the tests, the experts, the paramedics and doctors, I don't care about any of that crap. I lead a very active outdoor life and I am so allergic to stings that merely having a wasp bounce off my hand in flight without stinging me, causes localized redness, swelling, and intense itching.

I have used the Sawyer Extractor so many times I've literally worn one out and am currently in need of a new one. If it has not saved my life, I am absolutely certain it has saved me a great deal of discomfort, pain, and at least one trip to the hospital.

They work.

They work.

They work.

How many times does it have to be said?

I think comparing a bee sting to a snake bite is bordering on inane, both physically and biochemically.

If you don't want to carry one, fine. Don't. Take your chances, take your lumps just like all the rest of us.

You really have been to busy with your vajeeber to read, haven't you?

But please stop crapping all over something you obviously have no first hand experience with simply so you can feel like some sort of "expert" The people who know the truth can tell you don't know what you're talking about no matter how many studies you cite.

I didn't cite the study. I didn't crap all over the paramedic's testimony or on the use of extractors in general. You, however, crapped all over a scientific study concerning the use of extractors on simulated snakebites in a lab. How much first hand experience do you have in this area?

 

[CaptInsano]

If it gets any venom out, it's a good thing. If you think that is a bad thing, say so.

Why would I think getting any venom out was a bad thing? You aren't making any sense.

If you think it wouldn't make a difference then you must certainly agree that there is no real "point" where there is a lethal dose, debilitating dose and non-lethal dose of venom. If you do agree with that, then you must surely say that the Sawyer is worth a try and that it could save your life.

I already said it.

As for the sand in the vagina comment, hey, whatever floats your fantasy, homo.

I'm not a homo, but I appreciate your concern, Susan.

 

[Don Rearic]

Then we are in agreement, it is worthwhile to carry a Sawyer Extractor and that's all that matters.

No matter where I travel in my state, I am within 90 minutes of Shock Trauma in Baltimore via a MSP MedEvac Flight so I don't really have a dog in this fight, per se. Unless I venture out west or perhaps some of my old stomping grounds down in Southwestern Virginia, this really doesn't apply to me as far as life or death goes...assuming I can get a cell signal and give them the GPS coords...I'd really like to get a HAM License and have a handheld with the capability of Auto-Patching...for emergencies like this.

My main concern is that people will believe the eggheads over common sense, I'm glad you agree with me, i.e., that getting any amount of venom out is a positive thing and that the Sawyer might just do that.

There is a webpage where this little boy has his epic saga of a tangle with a rattlesnake, I cannot remember if his hospital bills were half million or three quarters of a million.

Two drops of venom out of the wound can make not only thousands of dollars worth of difference, but the pain and suffering that doesn't have a dollar value...might be lessened.

Possibly more than two drops if you get the Sawyer on it within five minutes? Priceless.

The most disturbing thing about debates like this is the fact that the opposition comes up with very little in the way of positivity on the subject.

Now, to be perfectly honest about it, using the Sawyer out in the wilderness where you might get bitten and might not be able to be rescued might make you die a more lingering death. You might get the amount out that would have killed you faster. Hell of a thing...survival is.

Again, the scenario being, you cannot receive medical help in anything remotely resembling a "timely" manner. Over the years, there has been "cut and suck," there has been electro-shock with stun guns, icing, this, that and the other. We're not really talking about those things and I am not promoting them. I am simply saying that every drop of venom you can get out of the bite area is a good thing and could mean the difference between life and death and that means that the simple possession of a Sawyer Extractor could possibly mean the difference between life and death - which also does not rule out trying to slow the spread of the venom you cannot extract with ligatures, etc., as has been discussed earlier in this thread.

But to simply say that getting some venom out, any amount, is "bad" or a "waste of time," to me...is simply ridiculous.

It takes time for a foreign substance to be absorbed by the tissues, hell, even novacaine and other "locals" take a few minutes and in that lies the truth of putting an immense amount of pressure on what amount to a non-bacterial "abscess." There is a "pocket" of venom, you press down on it with the cup of the device and then depress the plunger. Again, if you get any amount out, that's a good thing.

 

[vjb.knife]

Then first aid.

 

[Don Rearic]

Upon re-reading that "abstract," I'm sure the Docs really piledrived that needle and instantly injected the full load instantly like a pit viper would. They wouldn't have too many other test subjects had they done it fast and hard, they don't list the duration of the injection but list the wait time until the Sawyer was applied. To me, that's a really big flaw right there. The surrounding tissue would have time to absorb more of the "mock venom" unless they literally rammed the needle in and instantly created the same type of abscess-like pocket with which the Sawyer might have better results on.

I'll be 40 this summer. I remember when cholesterol was bad. Then it was good, no, we're wrong, it's bad. Another decade and there was good and bad cholesterol. Butter is bad for you, try margarine. The list of bad science is endless...if not totally bad...flawed.

It's attractive. Method is attractive. The older I get the more I believe that medicine and science are one step above religion. People have unwavering faith in the various escapades of the grant monkeys. CDC and Johns Hopkins studies on "gun violence" are also interesting.

 

[Dannyboy Leather]

Post expired.

 

[CaptInsano]

If I was to be bitten on the trail by a rattlesnake, my brother would use his Sawyer Extractor. The physician, would make haste to get me to a hospital without using the Sawyer Extractor. Both firmly believe in their methods, however they both keep an open mind about the subject until better data is developed. I keep quiet knowing that both will have to pack me out if bitten.

That definitely sounds like Plan A to me. :thumbup:

 

[1Tracker]

I have read and heard different opinions on what to do if bitten by a snake while in the wilderness and other regions also. Some say to use some type of suction device others say it does more harm than good, the only advice everyone seems to agree on is to seek immediate medical attention. My question is this, if your in the wilds alone, miles or even days from getting medical attention what do you do if your bitten by a snake? Is there any kind of treatment that you can do for yourself or are you pretty much SOL.

Most important thing is not to panic because that WILL get your heart pumping faster which = blood corusing through your veins picking up more poison and delivering it to your vitals

Instead move away from the immediate area deliberately a few feet to avoid a second strike. Often times the first strike, depending upon species, can be what is termed 'dry' or lacking sufficinent poison to do you any harm

Third, look for the snake and try to remember it's coloration/pattern if any. If you are able to see it's head remember it's shape this is important! A triangular head is generally a poisonous snake, a snake with an oval shpaed head is NON poisonous:barf:

Try to decide your course of action by your group size and proximity to help/doctor. If a larger group send the fastest runner back out ahead of you and those assisting you out. the runner can signal for help to meet you at the trailhead when you emerge. If alone, or with another person, decide if you feel well enough to walk calmly out to the trailhead. If not then remain calm and let the other person head for help. If you have a Swyer unit then you want to be applying it within 5 minutes of the strike, and continue until the bite is 'dry'. Apply antiseptic and cover with light bandage. by covering it you are'nt constantly staring at it subconciously making your heart race with what if's

Good luck, and whatch where you place your hands and feet next time! Oh, and Spring is the time snakes leave their dens and swarm enmasse into the woods...enjoy your camping trip

 

[EvanG]

Also remember that if you happen to be allergic to the peptides, no amount of sucking or staying calm is going to help you. The absolute most important thing to do is to get help immediately, just in case.

Anaphylaxis out bush is never a good thing.