Question About Snakes

termite said:
Okay, tongue is planted firmly in cheek, but wouldn't it perhaps compound the situation in scenario 'a'? I'm only suggesting that well too much to drink, played with a snake....AND got bit. Oh, what the hell here comes the third pitch....hop in boys were a gonna go fer a ride!!! And steeeerrrrrikkkkke three-you're out! I wish that I could relate this story by means of my vivid imagination, but alas and unfortunately I'm ashamed to admit that I'm actually acquainted with a few folk o' this caliber.
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I catch your drift.
 
jh205 said:
So there are two types of treatment for snakebite, prior to getting to hospital for treatment with antivenom. The first is to keep the patient calm and apply a firm pressure bandage from the bite along the length of the limb. The second is to use the Sawyer Extractor.

What does each treatment do? The first method limits the amount of toxin being transported throughout the body, whilst the second method extracts a tiny and clinically insignificant amount of venom from the wound, whilst allowing the majority of the toxin to be freely transported.
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You realize that you are citing what seems to be a flawed study, right? Also, is there a study investigating the effectiveness of pressure bandages? What about a study comparing the effects of systemic circulation and dilution of the venom with keeping the venom largely sequestered and concentrated in the distal end of one limb?

jh205 said:
Anyone with half an ounce of common sense can see what the appropriate treatment is.
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Anyone with common sense can see that the appropriate treatment would be to utilize everything available.
 
Don Rearic said:
Why do you guys argue from a dishonest position? ...But, again, the people who are so smart have to make themselves appear to be smarter by saying, "You have to make it to us smart people."

What if the person CAN'T?

Well, obviously, in many cases, they are going to die. So, in a way, why don't you and the rest of the wunderkind tell the truth, "If you are bitten by a rattlesnake and you cannot reach medical attention within 6 hours and it's not a dry bite, it's quite likely you are going to die."

Seems a lot more honest to me.
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What have I said that was dishonest?

No one called you dumb. I do think that relying on what some guy thought he saw in the contents of a sawyer extractor in the back of his truck a very uninformed conclusion. If saying this makes you feel like an idiot it is noones fault but your own.

Also, I did say that most snakebites are not deadly in this part of the world. So you saying that I am saying "it's quite likely you are going to die." makes you a liar. If you cannot handle that you should stop lying.


Don Rearic said:
Did it hurt your ego that not everyone blindly trusts people in your profession?
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Did you not read where I said I do not trust people simply because they have an advanced degree? (I refer you back to the liar label again.)
My ego is quite intact. If anything, I feel sorry for people who have such an unhealthy distrust of anyone with more education than them. It is good to question evidence, but if you are going to contradict someone elses opinions it would help if you had SOME evidence yourself.

Don Rearic said:
You're a fool, that's not what I was saying at all. Apparently you glossed over that portion.
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Please tell us all what you are saying.

Don Rearic said:
You have shown the very same arrogant, shitty attitude that makes me despise many people in your profession to begin with. You ask them a question and they simply ignore you, you ask for something to be explained and they act like you're a moron and they don't have time to explain something to one of the Great Unwashed. In short, you're acting like an ass because you took offense at something I said. Pretty cool coming from someone in a profession that is being taken to task because they can't be bothered to wash their lab coat more than once a week. I heard this debate on MRSA on C-SPAN and WHOA BOY, you people in hospitals have some SERIOUS cleanliness issues.
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Wow! You have a serious chip on your shoulder, and some obviously misinformed notions of the rest of the real world. Why would you ever go to a doctor at all with such hate and distrust of those who have dedicated their lives to helping people? I hope for your sake you never get sick, because you may have to swallow some serious pride along with the medicine you hold in so much disdain.
 
CaptInsano said:
You realize that you are citing what seems to be a flawed study, right?
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You're singing a different tune, you're welcome. :)

JH,

What's the question? The all-important question, this coming from the "Foxhole Patient," such a silly and stupid statement, what do you do if you are more than 6 hours away from the hospital? People are talking about others aiding the bite victim, what if that person is off getting help, the list is endless.

I really don't think I am being unreasonable in this whole debate or the last time this debate reared its ugly, triangular head. I don't believe in cutting and exposing fresh tissue to venom - many people still think that's the way to go.

I don't think the Sawyer is a substitute for medical care although some people wish to ignore what I have written and deliberately put me in that category. I don't think Quick-Clot, for example, is a substitute for qualified trauma care if you have a really bad laceration/hemorrhage, but it can save your life.

What I am critical of is a halfassed study that doesn't really duplicate what a rattlesnake, copperhead or mocassin does and that is inject (we can come up with an average amount in a load of venom) in an instant and a study where the participants were basically stabbed with a very short syringe needle and the payload injected in an instant - JUST LIKE A SNAKE DOES. Then, within three minutes, apply the Sawyer. Also, instead of screwing around with radioactive substances, per se, I think it would be most important to first have the "mock venom" to have the same basic absorbtion rate as venom and not just saline, etc.

Ultimately, I think any real study would involve animals that have a limb isolated and were actually bitten by a rattlesnake and then apply the Sawyer. Hell, that's seems more worthwhile then funneling raw eggs down a rabbit's throat and then arriving at the conclusion that cholesterol will kill. :D
 
Don Rearic said:
What I am critical of is a halfassed study that doesn't really duplicate what a rattlesnake, copperhead or mocassin does and that is inject (we can come up with an average amount in a load of venom) in an instant and a study where the participants were basically stabbed with a very short syringe needle and the payload injected in an instant - JUST LIKE A SNAKE DOES. Then, within three minutes, apply the Sawyer. Also, instead of screwing around with radioactive substances, per se, I think it would be most important to first have the "mock venom" to have the same basic absorbtion rate as venom and not just saline, etc.

Ultimately, I think any real study would involve animals that have a limb isolated and were actually bitten by a rattlesnake and then apply the Sawyer. Hell, that's seems more worthwhile then funneling raw eggs down a rabbit's throat and then arriving at the conclusion that cholesterol will kill. :D
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No I doubt you even read the abstract!:yawn:
 
Hog Feet said:
Wow! You have a serious chip on your shoulder, and some obviously misinformed notions of the rest of the real world. Why would you ever go to a doctor at all with such hate and distrust of those who have dedicated their lives to helping people?
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They dedicate their lives, most of them nowadays, to making a whole lot of money, it's a business - nothing more and nothing less.

I hope for your sake you never get sick, because you may have to swallow some serious pride along with the medicine you hold in so much disdain.
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We can add "psychic" to your list of skills. I went to the hospital last July, had a scratched cornea that became infected. Sat for about five and a half hours until I was examined, in misery. Someone with a seeing-eye dog and a striped cane could have noticed that my eye looked like a smashed tomato. Very painful. Nothing. Wait. And there was NO ambulance activity or anything like that going on. They took people who were simply limping before me and no, I did not have an attitude, I was in pain.

When it was all over, I went to an eye doc the next day, paid him a hundred dollars and he still couldn't tell me what it was.

Hospital sent me a Doctor's Bill for some 400.00 and had three doctor's names on it, I was not examined by a Doctor, I was examined by a PA and her name was not on the bill - in the real world I am used to dealing with, this is called "fraud," but hospitals get away with it. The hospital sent me another bill, apparently for the privelege of sitting in their waiting room in pain for over five hours, being examined by someone who is not a Doctor, use of an ultraviolet light and a Q-tip, some liquid lidocaine, I believe it was, and writing a Rx for a tube of antibiotic and percocet and promethazine and for that - a whopping 400+ bill as well. Oh, they gave me the $3.00 tube of goop which probably amounts for 100.00 of the bill and handed me one promethazine and a percocet so I didn't vomit all over the place - after over five hours, I was just about ready to hurl.

So, no, I'm not a fanboy because you're qualified to look up someone's ass or down their throat.
 
Don Rearic said:
You're singing a different tune, you're welcome. :)
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I'm singing the same tune I sang before. My questions to you still stand, as you have yet to answer any of them. I just have reservations about the study as well, which I have outlined. This is called objectivity. Pay attention. :cool:
 
Don Rearic said:
They dedicate their lives, most of them nowadays, to making a whole lot of money, it's a business - nothing more and nothing less.



We can add "psychic" to your list of skills. I went to the hospital last July, had a scratched cornea that became infected. Sat for about five and a half hours until I was examined, in misery. Someone with a seeing-eye dog and a striped cane could have noticed that my eye looked like a smashed tomato. Very painful. Nothing. Wait. And there was NO ambulance activity or anything like that going on. They took people who were simply limping before me and no, I did not have an attitude, I was in pain.

When it was all over, I went to an eye doc the next day, paid him a hundred dollars and he still couldn't tell me what it was.

Hospital sent me a Doctor's Bill for some 400.00 and had three doctor's names on it, I was not examined by a Doctor, I was examined by a PA and her name was not on the bill - in the real world I am used to dealing with, this is called "fraud," but hospitals get away with it. The hospital sent me another bill, apparently for the privelege of sitting in their waiting room in pain for over five hours, being examined by someone who is not a Doctor, use of an ultraviolet light and a Q-tip, some liquid lidocaine, I believe it was, and writing a Rx for a tube of antibiotic and percocet and promethazine and for that - a whopping 400+ bill as well. Oh, they gave me the $3.00 tube of goop which probably amounts for 100.00 of the bill and handed me one promethazine and a percocet so I didn't vomit all over the place - after over five hours, I was just about ready to hurl.

So, no, I'm not a fanboy because you're qualified to look up someone's ass or down their throat.
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You didn't use the Sawyer extracor on your eye, did you?;)
 
Don Rearic said:
Extractor. Have you washed your lab coat today? Or are the little peeps that you are surely donating all of your time to with little pay not important enough? :D
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I happen to have seven lab coats (one for each work day) and they get washed every week. I also happen to spend about 25% of my time doing free care.
 
I honestly hope you do on both accounts. My trust issues go back to my Dad and what happened to him when he had cancer. Basically, I despise the mindless belief system that some people have in medicine. Make no mistake, we would be in dire straits without modern medicine. However, the callous attitudes displayed by some in various parts of the profession combined with the almost religious fervor with which science and medicine are admired is a combination that kills over 100,000 people every year in this country. Give or take a few thousand, yeah?

My Doctor...sucks. My Wife's Doctor...sucks. My Son's Pediatrician? A GEM. I love that woman. She listens, she cares. She communicates.

Don't take too much offense at the original comments, I have a bank account my friend, but I most certainly don't trust bankers. When my vehicle needs work, I have to go to a mechanic, but I don't trust the profession.
 
Don Rearic said:
I honestly hope you do on both accounts. My trust issues go back to my Dad and what happened to him when he had cancer. Basically, I despise the mindless belief system that some people have in medicine. Make no mistake, we would be in dire straits without modern medicine. However, the callous attitudes displayed by some in various parts of the profession combined with the almost religious fervor with which science and medicine are admired is a combination that kills over 100,000 people every year in this country. Give or take a few thousand, yeah?

My Doctor...sucks. My Wife's Doctor...sucks. My Son's Pediatrician? A GEM. I love that woman. She listens, she cares. She communicates.

Don't take too much offense at the original comments, I have a bank account my friend, but I most certainly don't trust bankers. When my vehicle needs work, I have to go to a mechanic, but I don't trust the profession.
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Sounds like you need to get some new doctors and stop griping about the whole profession.
 
Hog Feet said:
Sounds like you need to get some new doctors and stop griping about the whole profession.
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My Wife is about ready to fire her GP. A little problem though, kind of restricted by crappy healthcare plans, you know what I mean? My Wife and Son are insured, I cannot afford it through my employer. My Wife just went through about a year and a half of hell with an ovarian cyst, you find out how much people "care" by the treatment you receive, I'm not impressed. I can gripe all I want. The profession sucks at this point in time, I'm sorry if you are offended by that, at least you have seven lab coats. :D
 
I've actually USED the Sawyer Extractor on numerous occassions to extract bee venom; and yes, it works. If you are arguing against it don't buy one (even though we know you'll be the first to do so after hearing about it here)! If you buy one you are not 'wasting your money' as some are implying here. Keep it out in your home's medice cabinet, when you get stung TRY IT!! Then you will know how it works and what it will look like when/if you ever need it afield.

A friend of mine leaving for Active Duty in the Big Ashtray asked me about it, and I gladly gifted it to him on the spot. If nothing else it gave him peace of mind to have in his kit. So far he's used it on a couple of folks scorpion stings successfully, according to him.

As far as the medical profession as a whole, I think they are a reflection of the general society at large. there are good ones, polite ones, caring ones, generous ones, but not all in the same person. A year ago I had abdominal pain, went to the hospital, a few 'doctors' looked at me, nothing, take pepto bismal & call my office. Yeah (jerkit). Then I go to 3 different doctora at their offices, still Jerkit! A YEAR later I finally diagnose MYSELF that I had suffered a hernia!! Learn what you can depend upon none of the greedy!
 
O Doc horror stories i like these!

I like doctors there fun to play with. Had one where he would say this is wrong and i would say no this is what was wrong and tell him how to fix it. LOL His version of fixing something was prescribing ANY medication that could help, and have you pick the right one on your own accord or take all at the same time.:rolleyes:

Needless to say i changed Docs!

My friend has the best Doc, my best i mean best looking full fledge 10! Every time he goes in he make sure to um turn and cough. O and he has a bad memory so she shows him how to do the same thing at home too, each time hes there... because of his bad memory:D

Anytime i go to the Doc i always know/have a good idea whats wrong with me, what could be the problems and what the doc should be doing about it, like tests and meds. I dont tell him i just um guide. He knows this about me and trust me. I dont just blindly trust anyone with my body
 
I could go on for about 8 pages about this, but I'll try to wrap it up into the basics.


You'll want to ID the snake that did it.

Antivenin costs $2,000 a bottle and most of the time, you can only get it once. I had been envenomated by a copperhead and decided to opt out of the antivenin. I deal with snakes up close on a daily basis and if I were to have a mishap with a cottonmouth or a timber later on I would be SOL. That may be something that you will want to weigh.

Lots of fluid, NO BENEDRYL. It does not help, not potent enough to deal with the venom. If your bloodwork is bad or you don't know what bit you, you'll probably want to go with antivenin. In my case (and most cases) THE HOSPITAL will flip out and you will with them. I had to argue with the doctors over the weekend about not taking antivenin. Finally on monday, after they held me in all weekend, a hand surgeon came in and looked at it, and said: this looks great, thank god you didn't take the antivenin. He was familiar with the tract of land we did research on and finally we knew someone who knew what they were talking about.


NO ice
No benedryl
those suction cups things HARDLY work. The only way they feasibly would do a lick of good is if you had it ready the second after the snake bit you.
No cutting
Let it swell.
Pain killers help. They gave me morphine, that stuffed messed with me bad so I went on hydrocodone that night and was fine.
Snake bites are rarely fatal in the US.

Our friend Nippy. Nippy had a microchip put in him HARD after that mishap.
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