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Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...
- Thread starter Mongo
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Let me preface this by saying I don't know squat about that. I don't know Ed, Burke, Cliff, or Beerse, but I'd like to. I admire Cliff's testing as I can break kryptonite in a single use, as well as his no-nonsense opinions which he backs up with his view of knife logic. I also appreciate his self restraint, as it is a quality I lack. Ed's reputation speaks for itself. He is, by all accounts, a MasterSmith, and to my eye, an artist. Alas, I will never own a Dega or Burke in all likelyhood. One must accede to the fact that Busse has created a niche for himself with a cultish following in just a few short(probably long) years that is remarkable. He has few detractors, many happy customers, and a pretty sharp wife. I will submit that those who question Cliff's objectivity have likely misjudged his mettle. I have a few items that he has reviewed 
I too look forward to his observations on Ed's work, especially the block splitting/repeated brick penetration test. Chill
I too look forward to his observations on Ed's work, especially the block splitting/repeated brick penetration test. Chill
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I got a Pronghorn from Ed last year and I know for a fact that he has made improvements since then. I don't feel gypped. If he wasn't constantly trying to improve quality then I would not have gotten as good a knife as I did.
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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Originally posted by PhilL
Personally, if it were my Pronghorn I would prefer that Customs have it rather than Clit. Gaben are you out of your friggin mind, sending Clit a knife????
I warned Ed a long time ago to keep his knives away from him. Lifter said it before, Clit is an knife abuser not a Tester or a Reviewer. Ed Fowler is an ABS Master Smith, what exactly are Clit's credentials?
PhilL, c'mon man, I know you better than that. Clit is going to far. After lurking for a while I have noticed the Cliff bashing. This guy goes out of his way to test knives for his own learning and everyone elses and he gets bashed for it.
I wish there were more people testing knives that didn't have stock in them. I would not pay much heed to what I read in mags, since they don't really test hard. Just my opinion.
Ebbtide
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What the mags write should be taken with a grain of salt.
Just as what the mags don't write.
Willingness to beat on and/or destroy good knives isn't a qualification for knifetester. Heck anyone can do that. Send me knives!! I can do it, really I can
I'll continue to read Cliff's tests, but untill he starts making his own knives I will take them with a grain of salt too.
Here's a thought. I watch Sterling Marlin and the NASCAR boys every Sunday.
I drive a 2000 Intrepid R/T.
I wouldn't think of telling Sterling how to set up his car. Niether would I race against him.
What I want to know is...
Did the owner of the Fowler knife get Mr. Fowler's OK to send said knife to Mr. Stamp?
After all, it is Mr. Fowler's name and reputation on the line. Not the owners or Cliff's.
Bashing/crashing/abusing/etc a factory knife is one thing.
Doing that with one of a knife maker's 'babies' is another.
Me?
I'll continue to cut things with my knife. I'll chop with my axe, saw with my saw and pry with my trusty screwdriver.
Extra butter?
Just as what the mags don't write.
Willingness to beat on and/or destroy good knives isn't a qualification for knifetester. Heck anyone can do that. Send me knives!! I can do it, really I can
I'll continue to read Cliff's tests, but untill he starts making his own knives I will take them with a grain of salt too.
Here's a thought. I watch Sterling Marlin and the NASCAR boys every Sunday.
I drive a 2000 Intrepid R/T.
I wouldn't think of telling Sterling how to set up his car. Niether would I race against him.
What I want to know is...
Did the owner of the Fowler knife get Mr. Fowler's OK to send said knife to Mr. Stamp?
After all, it is Mr. Fowler's name and reputation on the line. Not the owners or Cliff's.
Bashing/crashing/abusing/etc a factory knife is one thing.
Doing that with one of a knife maker's 'babies' is another.
Me?
I'll continue to cut things with my knife. I'll chop with my axe, saw with my saw and pry with my trusty screwdriver.
Extra butter?
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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I guess that all depends on what the maker of the knife states his knife is for. Some companies make no bones about it.."our knives will do anything that needs to be done and survive and we guarantee that for life."
Others only guarantee workmanship and quality of materials and if you abuse it, then you loose it.
The buyer must adhere to the rules (guarantee) set by the seller or maker or go somewhere else.
I'm sure that there is no doubt that ANY knife can be broken. Cliff knows this as well as anyone else. He and some other testers do this to see if a makers claims are true or close to it. When someone says, "you can't break my knife" , or " I have already tested my knives and they can take it all BELIEVE me" Is there not a little bias there. Reviewers that have no bias give you an idea of what a product can do.
I remember one maker using his knife at shows to hack on steel pipe without damage to his blade. He was making a point...my blade is tough and I'll prove it to you. Do you know who this was...
When I buy a custom knife out of materials that I picked or from a forger that I picked, I don't expect him to guarantee it for life, just to guarantee the workmanship and materials, if I use it in a manner not intended by the maker then it is my problem and I cannot expect him to replace it when what I did was abuse. Does that shy me away from a maker, no. I'll still buy from custom or semi custom makers if I believe their product is a good one. A better quarantee is only a bonus.
However, this has nothing to do with testing. I do like to see independent testers beat knives and do stuff that I may one day have to do with mine in a serious situation. The testing gives me an idea of what a certain metal made a certain way with a certain blade grind can do and what it's limmits are. No one should take offense if their knife breaks, after all it wasn't made from a meteorite so it cannot be indestructible.
By the way screwdrivers aren't prybars so I hope yours is a craftsman so you can get it replaced for free. I guess you just broke your own rule off the right tool for the right job.
Also, your intrepid R/T is not even a shadow of a NASCAR racer, akin to comparing a spy Delica to a Sebenza. So testing your intrepid would be pointless as it has nothing incommon with the race car save the body outline and even that is a stretch.
The owner of Fowlers knife OWNS the knife and can do wth it as he sees fit. As far as I can remember this is a free country and no one has the right to tell others what to do. Fowler can see fit to never sell that man a knife again, but that's about all.
Others only guarantee workmanship and quality of materials and if you abuse it, then you loose it.
The buyer must adhere to the rules (guarantee) set by the seller or maker or go somewhere else.
I'm sure that there is no doubt that ANY knife can be broken. Cliff knows this as well as anyone else. He and some other testers do this to see if a makers claims are true or close to it. When someone says, "you can't break my knife" , or " I have already tested my knives and they can take it all BELIEVE me" Is there not a little bias there. Reviewers that have no bias give you an idea of what a product can do.
I remember one maker using his knife at shows to hack on steel pipe without damage to his blade. He was making a point...my blade is tough and I'll prove it to you. Do you know who this was...
When I buy a custom knife out of materials that I picked or from a forger that I picked, I don't expect him to guarantee it for life, just to guarantee the workmanship and materials, if I use it in a manner not intended by the maker then it is my problem and I cannot expect him to replace it when what I did was abuse. Does that shy me away from a maker, no. I'll still buy from custom or semi custom makers if I believe their product is a good one. A better quarantee is only a bonus.
However, this has nothing to do with testing. I do like to see independent testers beat knives and do stuff that I may one day have to do with mine in a serious situation. The testing gives me an idea of what a certain metal made a certain way with a certain blade grind can do and what it's limmits are. No one should take offense if their knife breaks, after all it wasn't made from a meteorite so it cannot be indestructible.
By the way screwdrivers aren't prybars so I hope yours is a craftsman so you can get it replaced for free. I guess you just broke your own rule off the right tool for the right job.
Also, your intrepid R/T is not even a shadow of a NASCAR racer, akin to comparing a spy Delica to a Sebenza. So testing your intrepid would be pointless as it has nothing incommon with the race car save the body outline and even that is a stretch.
The owner of Fowlers knife OWNS the knife and can do wth it as he sees fit. As far as I can remember this is a free country and no one has the right to tell others what to do. Fowler can see fit to never sell that man a knife again, but that's about all.
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What the mags write should be taken with a grain of salt.
Just as what the mags don't write.
Totally agree.
I'll continue to read Cliff's tests, but untill he starts making his own knives I will take them with a grain of salt too.
BTW that's what he says all the time, read and make your own conclusions. AFAIK he never claimed his reviews were a bible.
Here's a thought. I watch Sterling Marlin and the NASCAR boys every Sunday.
I drive a 2000 Intrepid R/T.
I wouldn't think of telling Sterling how to set up his car. Niether would I race against him.
Not very valid comparison. If Sterling Marlin was selling the car that he makes to you, would you test drive it yourself or you'd ask him or another nascar driver to test drive it for you? I doubt about the later, what's the point? Same goes for everyday drive. Obviously you have to check the manual for his hypothetical car
Did the owner of the Fowler knife get Mr. Fowler's OK to send said knife to Mr. Stamp?
Hmm, the knife is sold, the owner paid for it, after that IMHO it's his own business what is he going to do afterwards.
Bashing/crashing/abusing/etc a factory knife is one thing.
Doing that with one of a knife maker's 'babies' is another.
Bashing factory or a maker isn't ok IMHO.
As for testing for performance, what's wrong? It's a product for which you have paied (expecting particular things from it), and most of the time a lot more than for a factory knife. If you missuse it your fault, if it doesn't deliver as promiced how is that different in either case?
I'll continue to cut things with my knife. I'll chop with my axe, saw with my saw and pry with my trusty screwdriver.
Donno about you, but most of the time I don't carry toolbox on me
On the other hand, it was only once when I was forced to use my Satin Jack for prying because I didn't have a prybar or a large screwdriver around. Other times, including chopping I just did for fun and testing.
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Hey all,
I just wanted to share a few thoughts. They somewhat pertain to this thread and also the "Edge Geometry" thread Cliff has started. There's still a whole lot I don't know about knives, forging, heat treating and edge geometry included. At this point in my education I do belive that the steel itself plays a large role in the performance of a blade. Different types of steel may exhibit certain properties that make them more suitable for specific tasks, but in my mind, what's most important is the smith's ability to precisely control the structure of the steel. That's not to say that edge geometry doesn't determine the efficency with which a knife will cut, but that if the steel is clean enough, and heat treated properly, then it will exhibit characteristics that make it a more useful tool. That includes use as a prybar if need be.
Based mostly on his responses in this thread, I have questioned Cliff's objectivity and qualifications. Experience does count for something, but IMO, it doesn't match being trained and accepted as a Master by your peers. In other words, I may take note of Cliff's findings in one of his tests, but I'll put more weight in the findings of an ABS MS for example.
Having said that, after reading Cliff's "Edge Geometry" thread, I am much more confident that his tests will be suited to the tasks a pronghorn was designed for. Being somewhat cynical in nature, I'm not sure the whole thread wasn't meant to show that it's only the edge geometry that makes Ed's knives useful, and that even mild steel could produce the same results. I don't believe this to be true, so I'm even more interested in reading Cliff's findings. I'm mostly interested in his opinion on the ease of flex of the blades, and in edge retention in relation to ease of sharpening.
Also, hyping this test as a battle to the finish, or a win or lose proposition, will only make it more difficult to reach a conclusion without any external influence. Whatever the delay, maybe we should just wait for Cliff to test the knife to see what he says. If anyone is in disagreement with his findings then we can go on from there. I doubt that Ed has any detractors that would disagree with a favorable review, which is probably the main reason no one seems to take objection when Cliff has something nice to say.
I'd also like to point out to Gabe that Ed himself considers the knife in question to be one of his best before he started experimenting with his new batch of steel. It would be a shame to see it damaged in any way, but I'm sure strict limits have been set, and if Cliff passes them he'd have to worry about Gabe crossing the border with a Newton minigun knife in tow...
Cobalt,
There's a romantic idea of having a blade forged from a meteorite, I think even the famous Bowie knife was supposed to include some, but it seems that it isn't particularly well suited for making knives. Here's one by Rick Eaton that is made with meteorite scales. What a beauty!
-Jose
PS Gator97, What's a Satin Jack?
I just wanted to share a few thoughts. They somewhat pertain to this thread and also the "Edge Geometry" thread Cliff has started. There's still a whole lot I don't know about knives, forging, heat treating and edge geometry included. At this point in my education I do belive that the steel itself plays a large role in the performance of a blade. Different types of steel may exhibit certain properties that make them more suitable for specific tasks, but in my mind, what's most important is the smith's ability to precisely control the structure of the steel. That's not to say that edge geometry doesn't determine the efficency with which a knife will cut, but that if the steel is clean enough, and heat treated properly, then it will exhibit characteristics that make it a more useful tool. That includes use as a prybar if need be.
Based mostly on his responses in this thread, I have questioned Cliff's objectivity and qualifications. Experience does count for something, but IMO, it doesn't match being trained and accepted as a Master by your peers. In other words, I may take note of Cliff's findings in one of his tests, but I'll put more weight in the findings of an ABS MS for example.
Having said that, after reading Cliff's "Edge Geometry" thread, I am much more confident that his tests will be suited to the tasks a pronghorn was designed for. Being somewhat cynical in nature, I'm not sure the whole thread wasn't meant to show that it's only the edge geometry that makes Ed's knives useful, and that even mild steel could produce the same results. I don't believe this to be true, so I'm even more interested in reading Cliff's findings. I'm mostly interested in his opinion on the ease of flex of the blades, and in edge retention in relation to ease of sharpening.
Also, hyping this test as a battle to the finish, or a win or lose proposition, will only make it more difficult to reach a conclusion without any external influence. Whatever the delay, maybe we should just wait for Cliff to test the knife to see what he says. If anyone is in disagreement with his findings then we can go on from there. I doubt that Ed has any detractors that would disagree with a favorable review, which is probably the main reason no one seems to take objection when Cliff has something nice to say.
I'd also like to point out to Gabe that Ed himself considers the knife in question to be one of his best before he started experimenting with his new batch of steel. It would be a shame to see it damaged in any way, but I'm sure strict limits have been set, and if Cliff passes them he'd have to worry about Gabe crossing the border with a Newton minigun knife in tow...
Cobalt,
There's a romantic idea of having a blade forged from a meteorite, I think even the famous Bowie knife was supposed to include some, but it seems that it isn't particularly well suited for making knives. Here's one by Rick Eaton that is made with meteorite scales. What a beauty!
-Jose
PS Gator97, What's a Satin Jack?
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The implication here is that anyone who ever tests any blade and posts his or her impressions on this forum should always get permission of the maker... ESPECIALLY if they have anything negative to say. That would include Buck Knives, Gerber, Spyderco... you name it.
And that is, of course, complete rubbish.
If someone isn't intelligent enough to read Cliff's review of a knife, or anyone's review for that matter, and form their own opinions about the tester, the blade, the methods, the maker, well, yaknow, life is going to be pretty tough for that person... buying a new car must present a tremendously overwhelming set of choices to have to face... the salesman's claims, the tremendous number of dealers, the array of cars, vans, trucks, SUV's...
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I'm recycling Gaben's questions for this thread, for this upcoming test.
Come on folks... what kind of tests would you like to see an Ed Fowler knife undergo?
A refined grain structure is a stated goal of Ed's, and refined grain typically speaks to improved material toughness, so I'd like to see some tests to see how tough the edge is under impact stress.
Refined grain may also help a knife get a very fine, shaving edge, and might help it somewhat in ease of resharpening given a Rockwell hardness... but that stuff tends to be pretty subjective.
I think edge retention (rope?) is one of Ed's stated goals in forging high performance 52100 blades. And if Rc59-60 is the hardness, some edge retention tests in various media are in order to compare with other blade materials at this hardness. Even better, another knife in similar final bevel angle and made of 52100 (the Caffrey knife?), O1, other carbon steels, maybe some 10V or 3V as reference, etc.
I really would like to see some tests head-to-head with a stock removal knife in 52100 at same hardness, cryo'd... but this might be tough... who has 52100 done up in flat stock? Anybody? Swamp Rat Knives close enough in blade geometry and hardness? It's a slightly different steel I hear, but don't know what elemental makeup differences are. Edge retention in abrasive media would be most interesting, but edge toughness also.
From Busse's Swamp Rat Knives page:
Anybody figured out what got added to 52100? Is Kryptonite in the elemental table yet?
The Bandicoot should be reasonably similar in size, blade thickness, profile, etc. Plus Busse targets Rc58-60 so we're pretty close to what Ed targets I think. And Busse gets these to market at $89/apiece. Pretty cost effective... keeps testing cost down.
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rdangerer,
Ed has some statistics in his first book regarding the performance of stock versus forged 52100 treated using the same methods. I believe the forged blade held it's edge about twice as long as the stock removal blade.
-Jose
Ed has some statistics in his first book regarding the performance of stock versus forged 52100 treated using the same methods. I believe the forged blade held it's edge about twice as long as the stock removal blade.
-Jose
Jerry Busse
Moderator
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So much seems to have been lost in this thread. There is little doubt that Ed Fowler and Bill Burke are able to wring every ounce of performance possible out of 52-100. The fact that neither remains satisfied with where they are at any given time in the performance arena speaks volumes about these gentlemen. The fact that the knives they make today remain in a constant state of evolution, when they have a waiting list that is measured in years and not months, is all that needs to be said. They are not required to improve their blades performance, but choose to do so out of a burning desire to make the very best knives possible.
Cliff will test the knife. He will be fair. He will most likely be very impressed by the performance when it lives up to its inherited reputation. All will be well.
Let's hope that the most important value of a Fowler knife is not lost in a single performance test. The value of any handmade or custom knife lies in the maker himself. When you buy a Fowler or Burke knife. . . You buy a piece of that maker. The very essence or "ki" of that maker has been imparted into that knife and that is not a quantifiable or measurable quantity.
If a scientist were to examine the paint used on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel, and discovered that it was actually a fairly inexpensive and low quality material, would that or could that somehow diminish the work itself? Or, conversely, if the paint were found to be of the highest quality and of the highest expense, would that somehow increase the value of the work? Ed's knives are treasured not simply because of their legendary performance and meticulous craftsmanship, but because of the man himself. No test of his blades will ever diminish, or in any way detract from that man. I have used a Fowler knife and was very impressed by its performance. More importantly, however, I have been impressed with the man who made it, and that is why I would buy an Ed Fowler knife. No single performance test can stand against the man who made the blade.
So, let the test run. Eds blades stand on their own, Cliff will be fair and will only test the blade to the limits that have been drawn. When all is said and done, Cliff may become another Fowler customer. . . if he can survive the wait for one .
Jerry Busse
Cliff will test the knife. He will be fair. He will most likely be very impressed by the performance when it lives up to its inherited reputation. All will be well.
Let's hope that the most important value of a Fowler knife is not lost in a single performance test. The value of any handmade or custom knife lies in the maker himself. When you buy a Fowler or Burke knife. . . You buy a piece of that maker. The very essence or "ki" of that maker has been imparted into that knife and that is not a quantifiable or measurable quantity.
If a scientist were to examine the paint used on the ceiling of the Sistine chapel, and discovered that it was actually a fairly inexpensive and low quality material, would that or could that somehow diminish the work itself? Or, conversely, if the paint were found to be of the highest quality and of the highest expense, would that somehow increase the value of the work? Ed's knives are treasured not simply because of their legendary performance and meticulous craftsmanship, but because of the man himself. No test of his blades will ever diminish, or in any way detract from that man. I have used a Fowler knife and was very impressed by its performance. More importantly, however, I have been impressed with the man who made it, and that is why I would buy an Ed Fowler knife. No single performance test can stand against the man who made the blade.
So, let the test run. Eds blades stand on their own, Cliff will be fair and will only test the blade to the limits that have been drawn. When all is said and done, Cliff may become another Fowler customer. . . if he can survive the wait for one
. Jerry Busse
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unfortunate maybe, but wait till you see the new satin jack!
prepare yourself for some major wood!
prepare yourself for some major wood!
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Jerry,
Very well said. I was recently reading an article, Ed Fowler wrote in homage to the great knifemaker, William Scagel. I couldn't help but think of it being a fitting description of Ed Fowler, also.
"This (Scagel) piece transcends the common knife and comes from the hands of an artist who understood the marriage of man and nature. The blade wears the antler with all the pride, confidence, and absolute majesty of the original monarch who grew it, a fine tribute to man and nature. The man, in absolute and total command of his craft, carefully blended many aspects of nature, creating what I feel is a pure masterpiece...(those) who see, feel, and come to know and love nature learn to work with and appreciate her, and know only the joy of being one with what and who they are."
(excerpt taken from "Iron Mermaid of the Great Lakes" by Ed Fowler)
David
Very well said. I was recently reading an article, Ed Fowler wrote in homage to the great knifemaker, William Scagel. I couldn't help but think of it being a fitting description of Ed Fowler, also.
"This (Scagel) piece transcends the common knife and comes from the hands of an artist who understood the marriage of man and nature. The blade wears the antler with all the pride, confidence, and absolute majesty of the original monarch who grew it, a fine tribute to man and nature. The man, in absolute and total command of his craft, carefully blended many aspects of nature, creating what I feel is a pure masterpiece...(those) who see, feel, and come to know and love nature learn to work with and appreciate her, and know only the joy of being one with what and who they are."
(excerpt taken from "Iron Mermaid of the Great Lakes" by Ed Fowler)
David
Cobalt
Platinum Member
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Originally posted by Jose Reyes
Cobalt,
There's a romantic idea of having a blade forged from a meteorite, I think even the famous Bowie knife was supposed to include some, but it seems that it isn't particularly well suited for making knives. Here's one by Rick Eaton that is made with meteorite scales. What a beauty!
-Jose
PS Gator97, What's a Satin Jack?
Jose,
I was kidding on that one. Meteorite was what the James Black Bowie was rumored to be made of in the movie "Iron Mistress." The point in the movie was that the meteorite made the knife indestructible.
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Cobalt,
I didn't think you were serious but the comment reminded me of that folder so I thought I'd share the pic...
-Jose
I didn't think you were serious but the comment reminded me of that folder so I thought I'd share the pic...
-Jose
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