Question for Cliff Stamp re: Ed Fowler's knives...

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This whole thing is ridiculous and IN MY OPINION extremely insulting to Mr. Fowler. Believe me, I am no hero worshipper but you are talking about one of the long time great mastersmiths being tested by an unscientific, unqualified, personal agenda'd forumite.
If one really wanted one of his knives re-tested, why not contact the ABS or another mastersmith and ask them to do it?
Anyway, just my opinion, flame away if you want to but try to keep it real and talk to me the same as you would if we were talking in person. Thanks.
 
I think Fowler and Stamp deserve each other. It'll be the match of the hour. Cliff...super tester who believes in his testing methodology to the point of fanaticism. Ed...super knife maker who's found the spiritual secret of the forged blade. Ed believes in his approach as much as Cliff believes in his testing. If you don't read Blade, you may not realize that Ed has been writing for years articles about his wonderful approach to knives and the super blades that are produced. In Blade, Ed has made some big claims about the performance characteristics of his approach. Ed and Cliff are in many ways as much alike as they are different. Both believe heartily in what they perceive as truth. However, only time will tell if the Fowler blade will be tested to extinction or if the soul of his knife will leap out and destroy the tester. Bring on the ring girls.
 
Dave,

Good points, I agree but can't help being interested in reading Cliff's review.

Brownshoe,

You should try to get a job with Don King, promoting his fights, his PPV sales would double! :D

-Jose
 
Brownshoe, I think you have hit the nail on the head.


I for one am grabbing a beer and pulling up a chair...this will be good.
 
Gaben,
I just wanted to know if you got the left-handed Pronghorn from Ed Fowler, himself? The reason I ask is that I happened to see a left-handed Fowler advertised and sold on Bladegallery at the same time your offer came up. IF this is the same knife that you bought, it's one of Ed's older blades made pre-2000. (You can tell by the position of the signature in the photo.) The Bladegallery knife was made before Ed switched over to the improved virgin bar-stock he now uses from metallurgist, Rex Walter.

It also occurs to me that Jose Reyes may have another testimonial soon about the cutting efficiency of Ed Fowler's knives. Jose, would you like to say anything? :eek: ;)
David
 
ed, bill, nice meeting and talking to you two at blade, very nice hardware you brought to the show.:cool:
hell of a ride home huh:D

contest... CONTEST... I DON'T NEED NO STINKING CONTEST:D :D
 
David,

The trip is not finalized yet, so I'll wait to make any testimonials. If it's one of Ed's older blades, does this mean I'll have to send Cliff my own pronghorn, or maybe one of my short camps? :D

-Jose
 
How can someone who loves oranges fairly test an apple??? There shuld be a neutral third party here....it smells already...
and you guys talk about women!!!!What a stupid thread....it has gone to crap...
angie fowler
 
Send me one of dem knives I don't like Ed or Cliff so could give it a fair test. :)
Someone had to ask :)
 
Jose,

Nice meeting you at the show.

Who took your knife pics? They are awesome!

Jerry
 
Jerry,
I know what the secret "N" stands for... I'll tell the world!!! :D
David
 
Mrs. F.,
I couldnt agree more. The problem is not the testing but who the tester is. This gentleman once used somebody's knife to try and chop a cinder block. Certainly not one of the qualities I look for in a knife. If Mr. Stamp is looking for an indestructible tool that can chop through cement, I suggest a knife is not what he's looking for. IMO, he is a knife abuser, not a knife user. And what are his qualifications as a knife tester and why would his opinion matter any more than any one of the 18000 other members here.
Ed and Bill Burke do alot of testing together.We all know how Jerry Shipman's Burke knife, that was made out of the steel they've worked together on, saved his life.

I know Ed, and I know he's not afraid of testing. I would wager that he throws more blades away from testing in a year than many makers make. But the tester should be qualified and the aims of the testing should be clear. The knife should be tested as a knife, not a prybar, a sledge hammer, or a concrete chopper.

These are merely my opinions. The knife being used is privately owned and obviously the owner can do whatever he pleases with it. Seems a shame to damage such a fine tool. Keep in mind, anyone can break or damage a knife if they try hard enough, but is that what you buy a knife for?

edited to add: This is not a personal attack on Cliff Stamp the man. I dont know him at all and for all I know he may be a gentleman of the highest honor. The post was about relevant testing.
 
David,

Shhhhh. . .Tell no one about the "N"!!!! Remember the code!!!! Take the pill if questioned!!!! ;):D
 
Angie and Dave,

Wether Cliff will write a biased review or not we'll have to wait and see. If he tests a pronghorn the way he would a battle mistress that wouldn't say much for his skill as a tester. If he writes that the blade failed while he was cutting some cardboard or by attempting to hammer it through bricks, then...:rolleyes:

In my opinion Brownshoe and Anthony Lombardo are overhyping the situation. If the review is good, I don't imagine the folks who enjoy reading Cliff's reviews will hold it against him that his initial assumptions were wrong. If it's bad, the folks who own and use Ed's knives will still appreciate them just as much.

Jerry,

You are a riot, it was nice to meet you too. I still haven't found the switch to the secret Busse Cave but I'll get another chance next year. My hand will be healed by then so you'll have a chance to give me a proper knuckle crushing handshake...:D The photos in my sig line were taken by Point Seven Studios. They run a wonderful operation and are good people to boot.

IdahoSkunk,

It was good seeing you again and getting a chance to talk. Thanks for letting me handle your custom Busse. Mrs.Skunk is a real sweetheart. You're a lucky guy.

-Jose
 
Strange. Cliff has not even tested the knife yet, but a lot of people already have an opinion what the outcome will be. In other words, bias.

As of the cinder block chopping.
It is really unfair and shortsighted to diminish his reviews to that.

For one, Ray Kirk, the maker wrote himself on several occasions that he asked Cliff to perform such test. Now I don't understand why some readers are more upset with that fact than the maker himself who asked for it and was not upset at all.
Second. Mr. Fowler says he doesn't recommend his knife for bone cuting and such, Cliff knows that, he mentioned it too. We all know that by now, right?
If you read his reviews there a lot more to his testing than chopping. I personally think his cutting, edge durability and retention tests are very informative(if you read them), and more importantly they give some numbers, unlke most of the reviews (including mine) where all you can say is that the blade was shaving sharp and then it was not.
I think if one actually reads his reviews vs. skimming through the pictures on the same page he/she could get quite a bit of info.
If you think particular testing method isn't right skip it, make a note it's not valid for you and your knife usage :) E.g that cinder chopping(how many times has he done that anyways?) I am not doing that either, nevertheless how does that affect cuting test results he provides? Edge retention may be? I think not. Does he chop cinder with every single knife he tests? Of course not.

I believe his tests are unbiased. Based on that I see value in his tests. I don't think ABS mastersmith is required to cut rope, cardboard and take some measuerments on edge sharpness.
After all when you need to cut a rope, you're not calling ABS mastersmith to do that for you? How or why is this testing different?
 
I certainly wouldn't characterize Cliff as a knife abuser, but rather, a scientific tester who understands that the only way to determine the limits of mechanical performance is to exceed those limits. This is really no different than the crash testing of passenger vehicles, or similar procedures used throughout various industries.

Personally, I've learned a great deal from Cliff's posts and information provided on his web site. I think Cliff displays tremendous objectivity, and reports his observations, findings and conclusions in such a way that anyone who's interested could repeat the tests for themselves. That Cliff does this, and shares his work here, is a benefit to all of us.

I'll admit that my own, less objective side would delight in seeing Ed's Pronghorn not only meet but exceed both his claims and everyone's expectations, including Cliff's. As purely a matter of aesthetics and taste, I find myself less and less interested all the time in the countless stock removal, "wunder-steel" blades being turned out to appease the tactical and high-tech knife crowd. These knives, IMO, simply have no "soul" compared to even a very basic, well-crafted forged blade. It would please me to no end if Ed's Pronghorn kicked major INFI-butt from here to Cliff's home in Newfoundland ... but I'm not making any bets on it, and I'll attach a lot of credibility to Cliff's findings, whatever they may be.

None of which is to say that I'm ever going to spend my money on a Busse, for example, when I'd just much rather own a Fowler, Fisk, or Fitch blade. I'm not likely to even approach the limits of any of these knives anyway (that's what I have guns, prybars, mauls, axes, and all kinds of other tools for.) But I'll always be interested in knowing how they stack up to the competition, just for the sake of my own edification.

My thanks to everyone who contributes here.
 
Jose is right, Mrs. Skunk is a real sweetheart. Scott, you've got something special. (Treasure her.)
David
 
Gator97 & ColoradoDave,

Cliff has already made some strong statements disagreeing with the design and materials that Ed uses. He's made statements that it's unlikey for him to be wrong and has even implied that Ed's knives are no better than a stock removal blade cryogenically treated. Then there is the psychological factor of not wanting to lose an argument so even a subconcious bias may present itself. I don't find the question of bias surprising. It would be easy enough for him to devise tests that are specifically meant to show a weakness in the blade, while avoiding any tests that would show it's strengths. You are right though, we'll have to wait to see what he writes.

-Jose
 
Originally posted by Jose Reyes
Click to expand...
...Cliff has already made some strong statements disagreeing with the design and materials that Ed uses.
Hmm, I think he said those were not optimal for his purposes. I didn't see him disagreeing on convex edge or 52100 in general.
Differential tampering and bending method is another issue, but again, for testing edge retention, durability, sharpening etc. that won't have significant influence.

He's made statements that it's unlikey for him to be wrong and has even implied that Ed's knives are no better than a stock removal blade treated properly.
On that topic, stock removal vs. forging most of the makers do not agree as fas as I understand from reading the forum :)

Then there is the psychological factor of not wanting to lose an argument so even a subconcious bias may present itself. I don't find the question of bias surprising.
Donno. I've seen Cliff's reviews and messages where he openly said he was wrong in his initial asusmptions and assesments. And I believe he doesn't have personal issues with Ed.

It would be easy enough for him to devise tests that are specifically meant to show a weakness in the blade, while avoiding any tests that would show it's strengths.
If those tests are so easy to devise, then it'll be easy to see that the tests were specifically devised for particular purpose?
Besides I don't see how cutting tests on various types of rope, wood whittling etc. can be devised.

You are right though, we'll have to wait to see what he writes.
Agree, my point was that discrediting his testing alltogether before the tests were conducted doesn't sound very convincing to me.

P.S. And one more thing. Nobody ever criticises Cliff when he makes positive comment, or "generalizes" on a knife/steel that he hasn't used. As soon as he "generalizes" and the coment isn't positive then #1 argument is that he hasn't used it, how can he talk, he's biased, etc. Even for very obvious things.
 
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