Question for the collectors and knife buyers.

When considering such a purchase, use of new stock, or the use of recycled items:

  • Is a significant factor.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Is not a significant factor.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    0
  • Poll closed .
ryan9977 said:
i wonder how long a knife made from an old saw blade or file would last if it came up on mr hanson's site?.....hmmmmm......ryan
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If Don said something like "forged from a 19th century logging saw blade which tested out as L6, with a fine grained, high carbon makeup" probably fairly quickly....if posited as "old saw blade"...that knife had better be finer than most, at least IMO.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
steven.....i see your point.....i have seen plenty of people say that their old saw blade was l6.....how r they testing it though....lookin at sparks by the moonlight?.....my point being is if you have scrap stel get it professionally tested.....then you KNOW what you are dealing with......i have no problems with makers using scrap.....but i have to trust that maker using it......i have seen plenty of "junk" knives that peformed great and plenty of j.s and even m.s. knives that well....well let's just say i still got alot of that "junk"......ryan
 
By my count there are at least seven makers that responded to the poll, skewing the final outcome. Seven votes would amount to almost 11% of the total tally, and even though some were on either side of the ballot, the goal of the thread as stated in the first post was to preclude makers.

I'm not sure if any other makers can be identified, but the individuals I found were joshsmith, Kyle Royer, Rusty McDonald, WyoNonSmith, Ivan Campos, Larrin, Stuart Willis.

I'm aware that these folks could be both collectors as well as makers, but I'm pretty certain that Kevin was hoping that makers would bow out of this intentionally (correct me if I'm mistaken, Kevin).
 
Known steel is critically important in my purchase decisions. The exception would require some serious historic significance. For me examples are WTC steel, a hunk of the Titanic, a piece of Capt Eddie Rickenbacker's Spad XIII biplane...

Of the 50 plus knives in our combined collection (the wifey and me), one is made from a file. In that case I "bought the maker" because I think he's cool and I wanted something he created. For those I saw at Blade, yep, it's the Roger "Mudbone" Jones knife I was wearing.

And if Don made a knife from an old file...hell yeah I'd buy it so I'd have something to razz him about whenever we talked :D
 
r connally said:
And if Don made a knife from an old file...hell yeah I'd buy it so I'd have something to razz him about whenever we talked :D
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That's one of the reasons this one came home with me from the St. Louis show in '08, Rob. ;) :D

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Others being it's wickedly sharp and very cool. Not something I would make a habit of collecting, and not something Don plans to make very often.

So, I feel the steel is critical in every purchase I make, but that won't stop me from an occasional frill. I am a detail person, and the steel of a purchase is always going to make or break a deal. After seeing this blue collar file bowie of Don's cut cigarette paper easier than any other fixed blade or folder on his table that day, and Don being comfortable with the way the steel forged, I was sold.

According to Don, this file steel could be W1 or W2 as it is high carbon, low alloy, fine-grained, was triple quenched, and sharpened down to a very fine edge. This begs to be tested, but has not been used to date.

Not my normal purchase, but not to say it won't happen again.

- Joe
 
Don may get mad at me but since Joe started it....:D
Picked this up from him in '05.
Sawblade steel.

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Doug
 
I always heard, and now believe myself, that the heat treatment of steel defines its performance.

With that being said, many knife making folk these days outsource their heat treatment.
They bring a third party into the equation, for the most critical process a knife undergoes, (some would argue).

Now, the consumer has to not only trust that the knife making person is buying material from a reputable source, and that the source for the steel can be trusted, (and on...) but also that the knife maker knows what they're doing when it comes to the critical process of heat treatment. If they know what they're doing, why would they outsource? Devil's advocate, I know there are many legitimate reasons for outsourcing.

Say for example, the heat treating outfit screws up. A collector buys the knife, never uses it and enjoys it as the epitome of their collection. Maybe the knife is too hard to ever sharpen and would break if it fell to the ground.

I don't know how thorough the documentation is that heat treating outfits provide, and maybe the point is moot because their records and provenance are bulletproof. It's just something that crossed my mind today.

I'd say that the basis of any worthwhile endeavour is trust. There are some makers I'd trust to make a high performance knife with recycled steel, and others I wouldn't trust enough to buy a knife from, regardless of what materials they used.
 
Canineforge; wow, that's a long one Joe! Never seen anything like that from Don before. Thanks for showing it!

Doug C; wow, that's a thick one Doug! Never seen anything like that from Don either!

Who's next, Jon Brand with a Hanson file folder :eek:
 
Um, folks, I mentioned that I picked this up in '05 but like the image says
the knife is from '92.
It was from Don's sale in '05 for the widow of a Hanson collector, some great buys that day.
Sleek, isn't it ? :D

Doug, ps...Thanks, Don ! :thumbup:
 
2knife said:
...Kevin C.,
I would find it educational, from a metallurgy standpoint, explanation of where are the greatest disadvantages in the material, (generally) if recycled? Are there fractures and weaknesses in microstrucures, inherit in "used" steels? Or, is the greatest problem the "unknown" element- + heat treating to unknown specs??
Thanks,
David
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David, the questions you ask tells me that yours is the type of analytical free thinking that I like. I could give you this information (I would love to give you this information), but not only would that cause me to violate my own rule for the thread, but I can assure you, just as I can say the sun will set tonight, that it would derail this thread as quickly as you can say “jam-pile”. One of the reasons I am trying so hard to understand this subject is because of how emotionally based it is. Every time anybody has tried, reason, logic or facts to distill it down for makers on either side it has been swept aside in waves of heated opinion, and anything people don’t want to hear is typed in a special invisible font.

Once again, I am learning in many directions by just observing this thread, one of those areas is how well certain concepts makers use have been incorporated into the P.R. and thus some talking points appear almost verbatim across groups outside of makers in the custom knife scene. This topic has now grown more interesting to me because of its social complexity, one could study it for a very long time and continually gain insights in how the custom knife community works and is structured.

On the collectors end, I hope that this thread and anything else I can provide in the future gives you good information. I think we can agree (collectors and myself, as I know I can only speak for myself among makers) that well informed purchases are by far the best.
 
Matthew Gregory said:
By my count there are at least seven makers that responded to the poll,...

...I'm aware that these folks could be both collectors as well as makers, but I'm pretty certain that Kevin was hoping that makers would bow out of this intentionally (correct me if I'm mistaken, Kevin).
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Matt I expected it, but you must admit that it is enlightening to see just how visceral this topic really is for knifemakers. I don't know about you but I am observing in myself the self restraint required to read certain points and counter points and still not type a word about it. The initial guidelines about the focus group in themselves can be a gauge of logic over passions. Logic- "the rules state only these people should answer, not me, so I will observe and hear what they have to say." Passions- "I can't abide this being discussed without attempting to steer it one way or another." Now it may be interesting to gauge which group of knifemakers is more logical, or passionate. Heck I thought I was logical, but the consuming itch I have to inject commentary is telling me I am pretty darned passionate about it.

There is no way we had these opportunities to learn about the subject while banging our heads against the wall in the senseless never ending knifemakers mêlées.
 
I wonder if the emotion you speak of stems from the fact that there are quite a number of knife making folk who rely on their knife making income and also on recycling steel in order to keep their costs manageable?

I also started to wonder about the steel itself. So many of the steels that people like to buy or use is not specifically for cutlery, but makes for a great hamon or is compatible with other steels in order to pattern weld. A purist might say that since there are so many cutlery specific steels on the market, should not knifemakers stick to these types and avoid those which were initially designed to keep a truck from bouncing off the road or for making files and industrial cutters with.

This is a great thread!
 
Seems to be a massive assumption that the maker is heat treating the known steel correctly. To me, no matter where they sourced the steel, if they're heating it with a torch, holding it in the forge until nonmagnetic, quenching in cooking/motor/transmission oil, doing an interrupted quench, tempering in a toaster oven, etc etc, then the temps are about as reliable as a spark test on an old file, and the composition of the steel is pretty worthless.

There's some sort of expected performance difference based on material alone, and I see no reason to expect such. Would you pay more for a knife put in a freezer overnight, or dipped in dry ice/acetone for an hour, or ramped down to LN and then ramped back up? Is the blade quenched in water, brine, fast or slow oil, molten salt, marquenching oil? Is the blade agitated by hand, or quenchant cycled by a pump? What is the volume of the quenchant? What are they measuring temps with, digital controllers, cooking thermometers, relying on the thermostat? Do you even bother to ask?

What steel is it? What does it matter in a vacuum of knowledge of the process?
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
Let’s assume that if you are paying $1,000 for a knife that you feel the guy knows what he is doing.
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hardheart said:
Seems to be a massive assumption that the maker is heat treating the known steel correctly. To me, no matter where they sourced the steel, if they're heating it with a torch, holding it in the forge until nonmagnetic, quenching in cooking/motor/transmission oil, doing an interrupted quench, tempering in a toaster oven, etc etc, then the temps are about as reliable as a spark test on an old file, and the composition of the steel is pretty worthless.

What steel is it? What does it matter in a vacuum of knowledge of the process?
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Did you have a problem reading or understanding the first post? What are you adding to the discussion, precisely?

I can't speak for anyone else, but in presenting my position on known steel, as far as the rest goes, I have been thinking of Kevin's HT with his damascus, Dan Farr's with CruWear, and Ed Fowler's with 52100....hardly exemplary of your statement above.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson
 
Kohai999 said:
Did you have a problem reading or understanding the first post? What are you adding to the discussion, precisely?
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I read it just fine, 'knows what he's doing' doesn't exactly tell you what the maker IS doing. The thread starter can expand on that more, as he has posted quite frequently about methods used by makers, and their ultimate unsuitability for cutlery. Also, points made attempted to be made at events like Ashokan. That, and the actual utility of the ABS testing methods. Also, there have been numerous discussions on the HT methods of some pretty big names in forging, their equipment, and their process. I've been following this for a few years, and Mr. Cashen is one of the most knowledgeable and forthright on the matter here on BF. 'Skating a file and calling it good' isn't that good.

There is just as much faith in the maker's ability to HT (seen any micrographs, how many give the rockwell C hardness for each and every blade?) as there is in his source of steel.

He could address Fowler's 52100 in particular, but that has already been done, and not with the best result as far as feelings and postings from some.
 
I am approaching this thread in much the same way I approach my testing and troubleshooting for knife production- focus on one aspect at a time, observing and gathering data with as few variables as possible. The heat treating or quenching methods is another study, another discussion and certainly another very heated debate. One thing I will not do is focus on any specific name or maker, doing so instantly makes it personal and this just is not personal for me. Steel and heat treating methods are things, people are people, if I have said nothing else it should be clear that I believe a method or approach should stand on its own with no relevancy with the name attached to it.

hardheart, your questions are good and engaging, and I have started three times now to draft an answer regarding methods and heat treatments vs. steel selection that could be approached in a way that is neutral and unbiased to the topic, but I can’t find a way to do it. The only thing I can do is observe this subject in a vacuum and then try to match it with the other considerations in the overall picture. But then I haven’t learned a thing about steel or metallurgical process in this thread, it wasn’t designed for that, I am gaining greater insights into people here.

Edited to add: My neutrality is very important for me since I already feel I am posting too much and I myself am a knifemaker, but I also feel obligated to keep the thread on track and answer any questions about its scope an parameters. If I ask other makers to stay out of the discussion, it is not only important it is basically just fair that I remain as objective as possible with my posts regarding the topic at hand. I hope all concerned will understand this.

Perhaps after the poll is over we can have a more candid discussion, but I am pretty certain how it will play out, and that can be so much typing and bandwidth for nothing:(
 
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Kevin R. Cashen said:
I don't know about you but I am observing in myself the self restraint required to read certain points and counter points and still not type a word about it.
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More difficult than it sounds, isn't it? ;) In keeping with the original spirit of the thread, which I think is a great idea, I will refrain from comment. Except to say that I'm learning from and enjoying this very much; thank you all, gentlemen.
 
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