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Questions about stampings on a Collins Legitimus

Discussion in 'Axe, Tomahawk, & Hatchet Forum' started by lmalterna, Mar 28, 2014.

  1. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  2. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  3. grafton

    grafton

    479
    Aug 28, 2010
    What are the other variations of the crown and hammer logo that are not shown on the yesteryear tools page? Is it your assumption that Collins had no other variations that are not shown on that page?

    “There were other modified designs that appeared on other goods especially edge tools that were exported.”
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
    droppoint1 likes this.
  4. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  5. grafton

    grafton

    479
    Aug 28, 2010
    I have several axes with the questionable crown and so I want to know as much as I can about them. I don’t care one way or the other if they are fakes or not but I would like to know. I’m not saying the fakes are not out there, I am sure they are, I just wish there was more information to help determine exactly what they look like instead of just having to guess based on the information available that I believe is quite possibly incomplete.
     
    droppoint1 likes this.
  6. Miller '72

    Miller '72 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jul 25, 2017
    I like Collins:cool:
     
    Square_peg and droppoint1 like this.
  7. Yankee Josh

    Yankee Josh Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 31, 2018
    I think my Chevy is a fake...
     
  8. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  9. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  10. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
    Miller '72 likes this.
  11. Miller '72

    Miller '72 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jul 25, 2017
    I do have a tendancy to seek out Collins, Collins Legitimus and the lines made for hardware stores.
    I hope to not be douped by a fake, however they are out there. My personal trapdoor...I am always eager and still green with much to learn and plenty of room for error.
    From what I have read, most of the early fakes were of good steel and though not a COLLINS Legitimus, good steel almost the same in many early cases:thumbsup::cool:

    [​IMG]
     
  12. droppoint1

    droppoint1

    165
    Nov 16, 2009
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    Last edited: Jul 26, 2018
  13. Steve Tall

    Steve Tall

    Aug 28, 2010
    I really appreciate any input from @grafton since he's a serious and knowledgeable collector, he likes to stick to the facts, and he makes valuable contributions to this forum.

    We seem to have a difference of opinion regarding the Legitimus crown stamp where the points of the crown are separate pieces (like petals of a flower). While I think it's probably a fake, he's not convinced, which is fine with me because there's no definitive evidence either way.

    My approach is to go with what seems most likely, based on known evidence, and to be clear that it's not absolutely certain. Sort of like how our current understanding of gravity is still theoretical, subject to being replaced by an improved theory that makes more sense, based on new information and new evidence. Until that happens, we work with what we've got.

    So I am highly suspicious (but not certain) that those separate crown points indicate a fake. Why?
    1. None of the various Legitimus trademarks that I've found registered in the US and internationally have this type of crown.
    2. This type of crown doesn't appear on any known examples of Collins production that I'm aware of (such as examples in the Collins museum, catalogs, advertising, etc.)
    3. This type of crown appears on some axes that I'll call "sketchy" because of poor stamping alignment, overstrikes, etc. Collins seemed to be a stickler for quality, and for some of these stampings I'd be surprised that the Collins company would let them go out the door.
    4. The Collins company indicated that there was a problem with fakes, and Collins at one point won a court case in England against an company that evidently was sending significant quantities of fake Collins axes to the US. Where are all these fakes, and what do they look like? It seems likely that some of these fake Collins axes still exist and are being sold at auction sites, etc. In the absence of evidence that the separate crown points are known to be a true Collins stamp, I think it's "more likely than not" that these are fakes.
    5. In my view, some of the 'Collins' axes we see online are probably fake, so I think it's reasonable to be highly suspicious of those crowns with separate points, because it seems to be a likely candidate for a fake stamp.
    6. In the absence of additional evidence that confirms that Collins did actually use that stamp variation, based on all the above reasons I think it's conservative and playing it safe to assume that they are more likely to be fake.

    In the end, it's my opinion, and you know what Dirty Harry says about opinions. I welcome any evidence that disproves my theory/ opinion, or makes it seem unlikely. I think we're here to learn.
     
    Yankee Josh, grafton and droppoint1 like this.
  14. grafton

    grafton

    479
    Aug 28, 2010
    I think I have four or five of them. Most are collectibles and too valuable to beat up. I’ve only used one of them with any regularity and that particular axe was excellent. Hard steel, nice shape and held an edge well. But then I’m not sure it isn’t Collins made ;)

    I suspect the claim that the fakes were of inferior quality was straight from Collins mouth. What else would they say?
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2018
    Yankee Josh and droppoint1 like this.
  15. grafton

    grafton

    479
    Aug 28, 2010
    Thanks Steve. Hopefully one day we will all know for sure. I will say this, if those type of crowns indicate a counterfeit, both Abercrombie & Fitch and the David T Abercrombie Co. were either duped or involved in the shady dealings as several of the axes I have examined from both of those companies have these markings.

    The early A&F Hudson Bays have a unique rounded bottom edge on the underside of the head from the bottom of the eye area to the heel that was described in their catalog. It’s kind of an extra finishing touch and probably not much more than that but it’s noticeable. They are the only HBs I have seen that have this feature. If those axes were counterfeits, the maker must have known where they were heading because they have that rounded edge.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
    Yankee Josh and garry3 like this.
  16. Miller '72

    Miller '72 Gold Member Gold Member

    Jul 25, 2017
    Thanks
     
  17. crbnSteeladdict

    crbnSteeladdict

    596
    Jul 31, 2017
    Thanks!!!! I had no idea my IllLegitimus was that old .... now I am even more excited about that piece of steel. Funny thing: it has one of the nicest hafts I own :)
    [​IMG]
     
  18. Yankee Josh

    Yankee Josh Gold Member Gold Member

    Mar 31, 2018
    I'm not a troll! Just a note of levity. I've got a horse in this race too. Just trying to get a chuckle... i appreciate the conversation. The more informed the better. About everything !
     
    Square_peg and droppoint1 like this.
  19. Steve Tall

    Steve Tall

    Aug 28, 2010
    I'm referring to this type of crown (that I suspect is fake), with separate 3-sided triangular points, and a single line 'brim':

    [​IMG]



    This A&F example (below, from another thread) doesn't seem to show the type of crown that I believe is a fake. Do you have any photos of A&F axes that do show the type of crown with separate, triangular points (as shown above)?
    [​IMG]
     
    droppoint1 and Yankee Josh like this.
  20. crbnSteeladdict

    crbnSteeladdict

    596
    Jul 31, 2017
    This one looks suspicious [​IMG] [​IMG] https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/collins-986-hudson-bay-axe-1841441678
     

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