Questions about stampings on a Collins Legitimus

What are the other variations of the crown and hammer logo that are not shown on the yesteryear tools page? Is it your assumption that Collins had no other variations that are not shown on that page?

“There were other modified designs that appeared on other goods especially edge tools that were exported.”
 
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I have several axes with the questionable crown and so I want to know as much as I can about them. I don’t care one way or the other if they are fakes or not but I would like to know. I’m not saying the fakes are not out there, I am sure they are, I just wish there was more information to help determine exactly what they look like instead of just having to guess based on the information available that I believe is quite possibly incomplete.
 
I do have a tendancy to seek out Collins, Collins Legitimus and the lines made for hardware stores.
I hope to not be douped by a fake, however they are out there. My personal trapdoor...I am always eager and still green with much to learn and plenty of room for error.
From what I have read, most of the early fakes were of good steel and though not a COLLINS Legitimus, good steel almost the same in many early cases:thumbsup::cool:

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I really appreciate any input from G grafton since he's a serious and knowledgeable collector, he likes to stick to the facts, and he makes valuable contributions to this forum.

We seem to have a difference of opinion regarding the Legitimus crown stamp where the points of the crown are separate pieces (like petals of a flower). While I think it's probably a fake, he's not convinced, which is fine with me because there's no definitive evidence either way.

My approach is to go with what seems most likely, based on known evidence, and to be clear that it's not absolutely certain. Sort of like how our current understanding of gravity is still theoretical, subject to being replaced by an improved theory that makes more sense, based on new information and new evidence. Until that happens, we work with what we've got.

So I am highly suspicious (but not certain) that those separate crown points indicate a fake. Why?
1. None of the various Legitimus trademarks that I've found registered in the US and internationally have this type of crown.
2. This type of crown doesn't appear on any known examples of Collins production that I'm aware of (such as examples in the Collins museum, catalogs, advertising, etc.)
3. This type of crown appears on some axes that I'll call "sketchy" because of poor stamping alignment, overstrikes, etc. Collins seemed to be a stickler for quality, and for some of these stampings I'd be surprised that the Collins company would let them go out the door.
4. The Collins company indicated that there was a problem with fakes, and Collins at one point won a court case in England against an company that evidently was sending significant quantities of fake Collins axes to the US. Where are all these fakes, and what do they look like? It seems likely that some of these fake Collins axes still exist and are being sold at auction sites, etc. In the absence of evidence that the separate crown points are known to be a true Collins stamp, I think it's "more likely than not" that these are fakes.
5. In my view, some of the 'Collins' axes we see online are probably fake, so I think it's reasonable to be highly suspicious of those crowns with separate points, because it seems to be a likely candidate for a fake stamp.
6. In the absence of additional evidence that confirms that Collins did actually use that stamp variation, based on all the above reasons I think it's conservative and playing it safe to assume that they are more likely to be fake.

In the end, it's my opinion, and you know what Dirty Harry says about opinions. I welcome any evidence that disproves my theory/ opinion, or makes it seem unlikely. I think we're here to learn.
 
I think I have four or five of them. Most are collectibles and too valuable to beat up. I’ve only used one of them with any regularity and that particular axe was excellent. Hard steel, nice shape and held an edge well. But then I’m not sure it isn’t Collins made ;)

I suspect the claim that the fakes were of inferior quality was straight from Collins mouth. What else would they say?
 
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Steve Tall said:
I really appreciate any input from G grafton since he's a serious and knowledgeable collector, he likes to stick to the facts, and he makes valuable contributions to this forum.

We seem to have a difference of opinion regarding the Legitimus crown stamp where the points of the crown are separate pieces (like petals of a flower). While I think it's probably a fake, he's not convinced, which is fine with me because there's no definitive evidence either way.

My approach is to go with what seems most likely, based on known evidence, and to be clear that it's not absolutely certain. Sort of like how our current understanding of gravity is still theoretical, subject to being replaced by an improved theory that makes more sense, based on new information and new evidence. Until that happens, we work with what we've got.

So I am highly suspicious (but not certain) that those separate crown points indicate a fake. Why?
1. None of the various Legitimus trademarks that I've found registered in the US and internationally have this type of crown.
2. This type of crown doesn't appear on any known examples of Collins production that I'm aware of (such as examples in the Collins museum, catalogs, advertising, etc.)
3. This type of crown appears on some axes that I'll call "sketchy" because of poor stamping alignment, overstrikes, etc. Collins seemed to be a stickler for quality, and for some of these stampings I'd be surprised that the Collins company would let them go out the door.
4. The Collins company indicated that there was a problem with fakes, and Collins at one point won a court case in England against an company that evidently was sending significant quantities of fake Collins axes to the US. Where are all these fakes, and what do they look like? It seems likely that some of these fake Collins axes still exist and are being sold at auction sites, etc. In the absence of evidence that the separate crown points are known to be a true Collins stamp, I think it's "more likely than not" that these are fakes.
5. In my view, some of the 'Collins' axes we see online are probably fake, so I think it's reasonable to be highly suspicious of those crowns with separate points, because it seems to be a likely candidate for a fake stamp.
6. In the absence of additional evidence that confirms that Collins did actually use that stamp variation, based on all the above reasons I think it's conservative and playing it safe to assume that they are more likely to be fake.

In the end, it's my opinion, and you know what Dirty Harry says about opinions. I welcome any evidence that disproves my theory/ opinion, or makes it seem unlikely. I think we're here to learn.
Click to expand...

Thanks Steve. Hopefully one day we will all know for sure. I will say this, if those type of crowns indicate a counterfeit, both Abercrombie & Fitch and the David T Abercrombie Co. were either duped or involved in the shady dealings as several of the axes I have examined from both of those companies have these markings.

The early A&F Hudson Bays have a unique rounded bottom edge on the underside of the head from the bottom of the eye area to the heel that was described in their catalog. It’s kind of an extra finishing touch and probably not much more than that but it’s noticeable. They are the only HBs I have seen that have this feature. If those axes were counterfeits, the maker must have known where they were heading because they have that rounded edge.
 
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Steve Tall said:
I really appreciate any input from G grafton since he's a serious and knowledgeable collector, he likes to stick to the facts, and he makes valuable contributions to this forum.

We seem to have a difference of opinion regarding the Legitimus crown stamp where the points of the crown are separate pieces (like petals of a flower). While I think it's probably a fake, he's not convinced, which is fine with me because there's no definitive evidence either way.

My approach is to go with what seems most likely, based on known evidence, and to be clear that it's not absolutely certain. Sort of like how our current understanding of gravity is still theoretical, subject to being replaced by an improved theory that makes more sense, based on new information and new evidence. Until that happens, we work with what we've got.

So I am highly suspicious (but not certain) that those separate crown points indicate a fake. Why?
1. None of the various Legitimus trademarks that I've found registered in the US and internationally have this type of crown.
2. This type of crown doesn't appear on any known examples of Collins production that I'm aware of (such as examples in the Collins museum, catalogs, advertising, etc.)
3. This type of crown appears on some axes that I'll call "sketchy" because of poor stamping alignment, overstrikes, etc. Collins seemed to be a stickler for quality, and for some of these stampings I'd be surprised that the Collins company would let them go out the door.
4. The Collins company indicated that there was a problem with fakes, and Collins at one point won a court case in England against an company that evidently was sending significant quantities of fake Collins axes to the US. Where are all these fakes, and what do they look like? It seems likely that some of these fake Collins axes still exist and are being sold at auction sites, etc. In the absence of evidence that the separate crown points are known to be a true Collins stamp, I think it's "more likely than not" that these are fakes.
5. In my view, some of the 'Collins' axes we see online are probably fake, so I think it's reasonable to be highly suspicious of those crowns with separate points, because it seems to be a likely candidate for a fake stamp.
6. In the absence of additional evidence that confirms that Collins did actually use that stamp variation, based on all the above reasons I think it's conservative and playing it safe to assume that they are more likely to be fake.

In the end, it's my opinion, and you know what Dirty Harry says about opinions. I welcome any evidence that disproves my theory/ opinion, or makes it seem unlikely. I think we're here to learn.
Click to expand...

Thanks
 
droppoint1 said:
I am always learning also. I bought one of those suspected fakes, and it was poor quality. It had been repaired. With the handle removed, I could see it had cracks through from eye to poll, and in the front of the eye. I had no use for it.

According to this 1857 court case in England, The Collins Company v. Brown
The suit reads that the counterfeit tools were of inferior quality.

https://books.google.com/books?id=bElNAQAAMAAJ&dq=fraudulent collins axe&pg=PA215#v=onepage&q&f=false
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Thanks!!!! I had no idea my IllLegitimus was that old .... now I am even more excited about that piece of steel. Funny thing: it has one of the nicest hafts I own :)
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grafton said:
...I will say this, if those type of crowns indicate a counterfeit, both Abercrombie & Fitch and the David T Abercrombie Co. were either duped or involved in the shady dealings as the majority of the axes I have examined from both of those companies have these markings..
Click to expand...

I'm referring to this type of crown (that I suspect is fake), with separate 3-sided triangular points, and a single line 'brim':





This A&F example (below, from another thread) doesn't seem to show the type of crown that I believe is a fake. Do you have any photos of A&F axes that do show the type of crown with separate, triangular points (as shown above)?
25986908675_361cb64a80_c.jpg
 
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