Questions about stampings on a Collins Legitimus

C&Co. Legitimus said:
I'm not an expert but I can read. Collins did make that logo. In 1875 Collins introduced a new "LOGO" with 5 horizon lines. See D.E. Henry's book Collins Machetes and Bowies 1845-1965. pages 65,67 for crown and hammer logo "LOGO-SPANISH" and "LOGO SMALL" also page 85 "ABERCROMBIE CAMP" Marking. On October 14, 1938 Collins ordered the oval ABERCROMBIE CAMP die so I would guess that this "FAKE" is real and made for David T. Abercrobie after he left the firm that was co-founded by one of his forebears to start his own company ... Remember Collins made over a 1000 different items and I am positive their logos were used on different types of items throughout the years. THE END
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That’s interesting info. David T Abercrombie is the same man who started Abercrombie & Fitch. He sold his interest in that company in 1907 and began his David T Abercrombie Co. in 1908 which ended sometime in the early 1960s. “Abercrombie’s Camp” is his logo for that company.

It’s interesting that the date of the oval Abercrombie’s Camp logo order is 1938 as I would have thought it to be much earlier. The two examples of Abercrombie’s Camp marked Collins axes I have both have what I thought were earlier Collins markings on them. The Collins axes I have seen (especially the Hudson Bay no 986) from around WW2 have a different marking, without the Hartford or cast steel warranted marks. Would they have stamped the Abercrombie’s Camp logo on old stock Collins axes or was Collins using that cast steel Hartford mark as late as 1938?

Interesting development!
 
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grafton said:
That’s interesting info. David T Abercrombie is the same man who started Abercrombie & Fitch. He sold his interest in that company in 1907 and began his David T Abercrombie Co. in 1908 which ended sometime in the early 1960s. “Abercrombie’s Camp” is his logo for that company.

It’s interesting that the date of the oval Abercrombie’s Camp logo order is 1938 as I would have thought it to be much earlier. The two examples of Abercrombie’s Camp marked Collins axes I have both have the what I thought were earlier Collins markings on them. The Collins axes I have seen (especially the Hudson Bay no 986) from around WW2 have a different marking, without the Hartford or cast steel warranted marks. Would they have stamped the Abercrombie’s Camp logo on old stock Collins axes or was Collins using that cast steel Hartford mark as late as 1938?

Interesting development!
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There is also a ABERCROMBIE & FINCH NEW YORK stamp in the book on page 82. I would guess that most companies were offered their very own logo stamps but if it was up to them they might have a favorite COLLINS one in mind that they saw before on another item ....who knows? LOL Can someone say for sure that a particular stamp was retired (unless worn out) and never used again or that Collins didn't use parts of or an entire South American stamps on US items? I'm sure someone will comment....I THINK YOUR AXE IS REAL AND MADE BY COLLINS :) Buy the book its worth every penny. Take care
 
Thanks, I do need to get that book!

Does it happen to mention when the A&F stamp was obtained?
They were selling Collins axes at least as early as 1907, with the Hudson Bays being offered sometime around 1910.
 
Is the stamp on page 82 the same as shown here?
crbnSteeladdict said:
This one looks suspicious
collins-986-hudson-bay-axe_1_39aedf49812115fe93311f061b2ed53c.jpg
collins-986-hudson-bay-axe_1_39aedf49812115fe93311f061b2ed53c.jpg
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/collins-986-hudson-bay-axe-1841441678
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grafton said:
Thanks, I do need to get that book!

Does it happen to mention when the A&F stamp was obtained?
They were selling Collins axes at least as early as 1907, with the Hudson Bays being offered sometime around 1910.
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Back at work right now.. I will look into it. I also have many original Collins catalogs as well to look through.
 
droppoint1 said:
I appreciate how closely you are looking at the evidence, and I respect that. I think I understand where you are coming from.

You claim that they are all authentic, and I claim that some of the fakes can be spotted with the existing evidence.

Your conclusion is that all Collins logos are authentic, which is based on the statement on yesteryear tools, that there are variations of the logo not shown on the page, and that some counterfeiters copied the logo exactly so it may not be possible to know a real from a fake for certain.

As to variations, there may be some absence of evidence, but that doesn't exclude the existing evidence, or prove that all stamps are authentic.

I am saying; Absence of evidence of all stamp variations, is not evidence of absence of known trademark stamp records and styles that do exist.

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.


The burden of proof is on both of us.

You are basing your conclusions on evidence that is absent,
I am basing my conclusions on the evidence that exists.
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When I have time I will try to count how many variations of the Crown & Hammer I can find and what year the dies were made or first used or on what item. It might take awhile. Lol I have to ask what makes everyone so sure that certain dies had to be used for one specific period in time? Could it possibly be that some dies were used on multiple items or for special brand name products? Is what us locals call the Crown & Hammer logo actually a rising sun with an arm & hammer used in South America (the so called fake)? If anyone knows anything about sales you would know that unsold stock sitting on a shelf is often sold cheap or sometimes rebranded as a new product and sold under a different brand. This could explain the so called old logo being on something newer. Hell I was surprised that there are still NOS items for sale. Yes you heard that right items found in the factory after 1965 that are still in the original wrappers and still available today.
 
C&Co. Legitimus said:
When I have time I will try to count how many variations of the Crown & Hammer I can find and what year the dies were made or first used or on what item. It might take awhile. Lol I have to ask what makes everyone so sure that certain dies had to be used for one specific period in time? Could it possibly be that some dies were used on multiple items or for special brand name products? Is what us locals call the Crown & Hammer logo actually a rising sun with an arm & hammer used in South America (the so called fake)? If anyone knows anything about sales you would know that unsold stock sitting on a shelf is often sold cheap or sometimes rebranded as a new product and sold under a different brand. This could explain the so called old logo being on something newer. Hell I was surprised that there are still NOS items for sale. Yes you heard that right items found in the factory after 1965 that are still in the original wrappers and still available today.
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Thank you for taking your time: There are a lot of printed sources that has not been shared on internet, yet. If I only lived a little bit closer, I would drive to Connecticut State Library in Hartford right now to check out D.E. Henry's book.
 
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I need to clarify something. I do believe there are fake Collins items out there but all the ones I’ve seen were stamped MADE IN GERMANY. Also remember Collins made a lot of items not only for themselves but for other companies. Some with Collins name included some without. So you have to wonder if this is what caused people to think there are fakes? Or was it propaganda so people would only buy Collins items?
 
I feel like the court case mentioned earlier where a foreign counterfeiter was found in possession of materials to mark items with identical or close to identical Collins marks is evidence that the counterfeiting and deception was going on.

The main question is just what did those markings that were not “exact” look like. Those particular stamping materials were likely destroyed but I wish they were kept as evidence and could be viewed. That would answer many of the questions. Since we don’t have those the only thing to try and do is find legitimate Collins marks or literature that matches the marks on questionable pieces. I think my position has been made pretty clear that I don’t accept these as fakes until we have more information. Others take a different view and that fine.

For many folks I’m sure it’s enough to put some of these things into a “suspected” counterfeit category. I’m not happy with that and hope that we can do better and definitively answer some things. Maybe that is asking too much.
 
You need Henry’s book. It has pictures/drawings of most of the stamps and goes as far as finding out where and what date they were purchased. Not every single one but a bunch. You will see how parts of the knife and machete stamps are exact copies of some of the axe stamps. I will also ask the museum librarian about evidence or pictures of any fakes. Don’t get me wrong there were many imitators but I don’t think there are as many fakes as people are led to believe. The book addresses many myths as well. I will post more info tonight.
 
Steve Tall said:
I'm also interested to know whether it's identical. The trademark that Collins started to use in 1875 doesn't have the same 3-sided triangular points on the crown, according to the registration notice in the Official Gazette of the US Patent Office (Jan 26, 1897, page 620).

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Pretty sure they didn’t stop using one stamp and then completely use another. I believe they used a few different ones in the same time period. Seems like they ordered new one for certain product lines. See book
 
My question on that pertained to the A&F stamp. I didn’t know if the stamp shown in the book was the same Abercrombie & Fitch New York stamp on the axe above or if it was their A&F Co circular stylish trademark logo. I’ve seen both on axes.
 
grafton said:
My question on that pertained to the A&F stamp. I didn’t know if the stamp shown in the book was the same Abercrombie & Fitch New York stamp on the axe above or if it was their A&F Co circular stylish trademark logo. I’ve seen both on axes.
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The book shows both styles A&F and Abercrombie Camp. I will buy all the so called fakes that anyone can find....they got to be very rare.
 
Very good, thanks for your knowledge and efforts with this. I will try and get a copy of the book.

Standing by for droppoint’s drop in :p
 
grafton said:
Very good, thanks for your knowledge and efforts with this. I will try and get a copy of the book.

Standing by for droppoint’s drop in :p
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I just got home from work and quickly thumbing through the book....there are literally at least 50 different stamp dies, marking variations and proprietary marking. Plus over 40 more Collins Commercial Tool Markings. You will be surprised at how many items Collins made for other companies. I'm guessing most axe collectors have only seen about 4 different Crowns & Hammers logos on axes? Cant wait to hear the myths about all the mysterious fakes. If I can find the one picture I saved of a real fake MADE IN GERMANY Collins item I will ask my kid how to post it. LOL Again I want to buy any fakes people find $
 
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