Questions about stampings on a Collins Legitimus

[grafton]

I'm referring to this type of crown (that I suspect is fake), with separate 3-sided triangular points, and a single line 'brim':





This A&F example (below, from another thread) doesn't seem to show the type of crown that I believe is a fake. Do you have any photos of A&F axes that do show the type of crown with separate, triangular points (as shown above)?

I haven’t posted photos here since the photobucket fiasco so unless I can upload them directly from my phone I’m not sure I can post them but will try to remedy that. Honestly I find this forum much more difficult to use compared to others I frequent but that’s another topic..

I have 2 A&F Hudson Bays and one David T Abercrombie co Hudson Bay that have those single pedal crowns. Also have a photo of a second DTA co Hudson Bay with the same, so that’s 4. The axe posted by the OP makes 5.

The ones I am referencing have the Hartford Cast Steel Warrented mark similar to the DTA co axe posted here.

 

[grafton]

This one looks suspicious

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/collins-986-hudson-bay-axe-1841441678

Yes, that is one of them. Teens-20s I believe. The others I mentioned are similar. The DTA co one is slightly different and hard to see but if looks like separate petals on the crown to me. The word Legitimus is smaller on that one too.

I have seen one A&F similar to this but with the more acceptable looking crown and another non A&F Collins 986 with a “normal” looking crown but it almost seems like the “fakes” for lack of a better term are more prevalent survivors than the legits and that seems odd.

 

[Steve Tall]

This one looks suspicious

https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/collins-986-hudson-bay-axe-1841441678

Yes, that is one of them..

Thanks. Unfortunate that the "sketchy" stamp lettering placement and alignment aren't very reassuring.

 

[droppoint1]

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[droppoint1]

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[droppoint1]

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[Steve Tall]

How much wood would a Collins axe chop...

... if a Collins axe was a Collins axe?

 

[droppoint1]

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[droppoint1]

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[grafton]

droppoint, your sarcastic diatribes are humorous but not particularly helpful

Steve summed it up perfectly by respectfully stating an informed opinion with the caveat that neither side Had enough information to be 100% certain. That’s where we are.

I’m not a Collins collector and honestly my interest in them pertains more with their association with A&F and The David T Abercrombie Co. Most interesting to me is whether or not the retailers selling these knew that they were fakes. If these are fakes, it seems probable that A&F and DTA Co must have known that they were selling counterfeit products and perhaps were actively seeking them out. They both sold other Collins products and there are examples of “non questionable “ crown marked Collins/A&F items. Was there a middle man involved? Was it upper management or someone lower down? Did A&F supply axes to be replicated to the counterfeiter? Scandalous and fascinating! At least to me.,.

To switch from one supply source to another, especially if it involves importing “US made axes” directly from England may indicate shady business..and...Collusion!

Before any of those questions can be explored, I need to know if these axes are fakes, as in KNOW 100% they are fakes. I have to know that in order to address some other questions and this is an important step towards further research. Perhaps that is what shapes my innocent until proven guilty position more than anything. I’m not looking at this from a position as a Collins collector or someone who cares if a steel is any good for hard use or whether an axe cracked or had quality issues or any of that.

 

[Kyle363]

This is my Collins hewing hatchet. I never thought it could even be a fake even though I thought it was strange that the stamps were overlapped. The steel appears to be of amazing quality. The other thing that makes me think its the real thing is that it had its original handle which was beautifully shaped. I feel like a fake of inferior quality would also neglect the quality of the handle.

 

[Miller '72]

I have this example of the Hartford Cast Warranted Legitimus Stamp if this is found to be at all helpful or just another example to ponder.

Perhaps later I can find a few other examples I may have of the Hartford Cast Warranted Legitimus.

This may be the only other Hartford Legitimus I have...

 

[crbnSteeladdict]

One hour ago I was sure I had 2 Illegitimuses: one that I acquired half a year ago and cracked Rockaway that followed me home last Saturday.
That axe has amazing handle for a illegitimus(some overstrike damage). It just feels right in my hand. In place of regular wood wedge there is metal plate( I believe the brass pin goes thru that metal wedge). Bottom of the handle is marked "c" inside corrugated circle.

I assumed that cracked head meant poor quality so it must be fake one.... a little bit of cleaning and....

 

[droppoint1]

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[crbnSteeladdict]

I have this example of the Hartford Cast Warranted Legitimus Stamp if this is found to be at all helpful or just another example to ponder.

Perhaps later I can find a few other examples I may have of the Hartford Cast Warranted Legitimus.

This may be the only other Hartford Legitimus I have...

The crown on the fire axe looks legit .

 

[Square_peg]

This is my Collins hewing hatchet. I never thought it could even be a fake even though I thought it was strange that the stamps were overlapped. The steel appears to be of amazing quality. The other thing that makes me think its the real thing is that it had its original handle which was beautifully shaped. I feel like a fake of inferior quality would also neglect the quality of the handle.

Legitimus was Collins' top of the line premium axe. I find it unlikely that they let one out looking like that.

 

[Square_peg]

That axe has amazing handle for a illegitimus(some overstrike damage). It just feels right in my hand. In place of regular wood wedge there is metal plate( I believe the brass pin goes thru that metal wedge). Bottom of the handle is marked "c" inside corrugated circle.

I have never seen a vintage American axe that was hung so high above the shoulder at the factory. At the very least that is a replacement handle. But the "USA" stamped across the corner looks flat out hokey. But maybe it's legit and they did that for the export market or something.

The cracked Rockaway looks genuine. It just got left out in the weather with a rotten handle. The rotten wood wicked water which then froze, splitting the heck out of that eye.

 

[Square_peg]

I agree that it doesn't appear that absolute certainty exists.

There are companies and processes that can test steel and determine it's composition. It's my dream that some day there will be a vast database of axes from every maker tested and identified. The chances of that ever happening are extremely remote (a man's gotta have a dream). Such a database would dispel a lot of rumors and might shed some light on this puzzle.

 

[crbnSteeladdict]

I have never seen a vintage American axe that was hung so high above the shoulder at the factory. At the very least that is a replacement handle. But the "USA" stamped across the corner looks flat out hokey. But maybe it's legit and they did that for the export market or something.

The cracked Rockaway looks genuine. It just got left out in the weather with a rotten handle. The rotten wood wicked water which then froze, splitting the heck out of that eye.

As far i know, the first one is not a Collins; The picture does not show very light crown mark stamped over the letters. For 130 year old knock off this axe is doing pretty well.
The second one. Because of the layer of rust I could only decipher Legitimus mark. Current hot topic is Collins fakes so I was nicely surprised that it was actually a real thing. And yes, the uniform crack from top to bottom of the eye looks like frozen water was the culprit. I hope one day I will be able to weld it and hang it on the wall with McKinnon

 

[C&Co. Legitimus]

Funny how people want the counterfeits to be real so they ignore evidence.

But of course you know more than Collins themselves. They put out literature about it. There is even a detailed court case where Collins is suing a counterfeiter. Also historians like Tom Lamond that wrote a book about Collins axes and discussed counterfeits.

In the information age, this is intentional ignorance, and it is rampant.


https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/a-possible-counterfeit-collins-legitimus-axe.1302474/

https://www.bladeforums.com/threads/real-or-counterfeit-collins-legitimus-stamp.1594563/

http://yesteryearstools.com/Yesteryears Tools/Collins Pt. 2.html

https://books.google.com/books?id=bElNAQAAMAAJ&dq=fraudulent collins axe&pg=PA215#v=onepage&q&f=false

Collins adopted the crown arm hammer legitimus mark in 1875 and registred it in 1876.

The fake stamps in question have a different crown shape than what collins ever made. Specifically the spikes on all of the fakes in question have long, skinny, more pointed spikes.

I'm not an expert but I can read. Collins did make that logo. In 1875 Collins introduced a new "LOGO" with 5 horizon lines. See D.E. Henry's book Collins Machetes and Bowies 1845-1965. pages 65,67 for crown and hammer logo "LOGO-SPANISH" and "LOGO SMALL" also page 85 "ABERCROMBIE CAMP" Marking. On October 14, 1938 Collins ordered the oval ABERCROMBIE CAMP die so I would guess that this "FAKE" is real and made for David T. Abercrobie after he left the firm that was co-founded by one of his forebears to start his own company ... Remember Collins made over a 1000 different items and I am positive their logos were used on different types of items throughout the years. THE END