Quillon Dagger WIP

[Matthew Gregory]

Great work in progress thread! I, too, am looking forward to seeing your fluting technique demonstrated.

 

[rwn2000]

Beautiful WIP Steve. I've been spending most of my time in the makers forum. Now that I know where all the grownups hang out, I'll have to check this forum out more often!

I agree, Phil; until now, I'm usually in the maker's forums. It looks like this is where the big boys come to play.

randy

 

[sculver]

I detect some apprehension that I may be irritated over the questioning of my processes. You cannot upset me with your questions. I ain’t that kinda’ guy. A WIP can, and should be, a learning opportunity for the readers. I welcome your questions. Too, dissenting views of my work give me information to guide me in the future. If anyone should truly manage to piss me off, I will clearly state so in my response. They will not need to wonder how I feel about it. However, I believe that anyone who cannot take questioning and/or outright criticism should not be posting on the internet.

Phil,
I’m sorry if you thought that I was upset with your questions; it was not my intention to give you that impression. I didn’t understand exactly what your questions and concerns where. If I don’t address them here, please respond with what you wish to learn. I want to answer your questions!!

As to Nick’s question about whether a MS test dagger blade must be forged:
I am aware that MS test daggers with stock removed blades have been passed. I checked the ABS Master Test rules and copied them below.

“The blade of this dagger must be forged of pattern-welded damascus steel of the applicant’s making and must consist of at least 300 layers in construction in any pattern except a random pattern. Twists, ladder patterns and mosaic patterns are all encouraged, but be sure that there is at least one section visible which the judges can ascertain that the blade meets the 300-layer minimum. The blade is the only portion of the dagger which is required to be made of damascus steel, though damascus is certainly permitted in the hardware of the handle.”

I see no mention in this excerpt stating that the dagger blade MUST be forged to shape. So, I take it that the blade may be stock removed from the 300-layer minimum Damascus steel and still pass the test. If there are any Master Smiths reading this post that disagree with my assessment, PLEASE RESPOND WITH YOUR INTERPRETATION. I will also post this question on the ABS Forum and ask for clarification.

As to my decision to stock remove this dagger’s blade:
This knife is a custom order. The gentleman who ordered it had already purchased a dagger that I had made which also had a ladder patterned blade that I made by stock removal. He indicated in his communications to me that he definitely wished for this dagger’s blade to have the same symmetrical ladder pattern as the earlier knife. So, it was important that I use the same process, as a forged blade would have a different look to the pattern.

I hope that everyone continues to enjoy this WIP.

 

[John White]

Steve,

I'm really enjoying seeing your work on this knife, and especially since one of the two daggers I'll be making for a client this month (and probably all next month,too) will be a fluted and wire wrapped "MS" style. Maybe I can learn how not to do things the hard way.

With reference to the "forged blade" question, if the rules required the damascus MS blade to be "forged to shape", that is, forged both to profile and to bevels, the rule would read differently. As makers understand, some damascus patterns require forging to shape. Other patterns, including many twists, multi-bars, and mosaics, require forging to profile, but may be stock removed to bevel to produce one pattern, or further forged to bevel to produce another, "distorted" pattern from the same billet. Some, like ladders, may be pressed and stock-removed, or ground and double-forged.

Any damascus blade an applicant forge-welds him or her-self is a forged blade, and will be judged on the quality of craftsmanship and artistry achieved, so long as it meets the 300 layer, non-random criteria.

With that, I'm looking forward to seeing that guard and handle come together in the next segments.

John

 

[Bill Burke]

“The blade of this dagger must be forged of pattern-welded damascus steel of the applicant’s making

Steve, This seems like it is new, as does the omission of random pattern damascuss. The way I read this is the blade must be forged from steel that the applicant made.

IIRC it used to say that the blade should be of damascuss steel of three hundred or more layers, with no mention of mosaic steel or forging the blade. please post your findings from the powers that be.

 

[Phil Dwyer]

Hi Steve, et al,

Thanks for your patience and understanding. I back peddled, not so much to protect my tender sensitivities (no one can see my tears from here anyway ). I simply decided my original inquiry in this venue was inappropriate and to pursue it might derail your very on track WIP too much.

Thanks again, Phil

 

[Bill Burke]

I talked with a frequent MS judge and it seems that the consensus is that forging the damascus is all that is mandatory but they all like to see the blades forged also

 

[RogerP]

However, I believe that anyone who cannot take questioning and/or outright criticism should not be posting on the internet.

TRUTH! For what it's worth, I'm glad Phil asked the question, as I thought I knew the answer but now I am sure.

Looking forward to taking a peek at this one in Little Rock - whatever the state of completion might be.

Roger

 

[sculver]

Thanks, John. I appreciate your response to this question.
I started a thread on the ABS Forum, asking for clarification on this matter. There is much good information on ABS testing requirements on the ABS Forum. An email has also been sent to ABS Chairman, Greg Neely to provide input on this ruling.

Phil,
I don't feel that answering simple questions in this thread will cause a derail. I started writing a much longer explanation of why I choose to use the stock removal technique on ladder pattern dagger blades, but it was too lengthy. If we want to get into damascus pattern development, we may want to start another thread in the "Makers" area.

Bill,
You are correct in that the ABS rules did not previously specify that the dagger blade be made of something besides random pattern. This requirement was added at the June 2009 ABS Board of Director's meeting. I think that the mention of mosaic patterns was added at the same time. Note that the requirement states that a mosaic blade must still have at least one section were the judges can ascertain that there are 300 layers minimum in the blade.

Mark,
I'm sorry that I didn't get your question answered in my post yesterday. All of the shaping of the ivory handle was done on the belt grinder. I first make two washers that are the same diameter as the largest part of the finished handle will be. These two washers are bolted to opposite ends of the ivory block and the ivory is ground down to the washers.

I then make two washers that are the size that the ends of the handle will be when finished. These are bolted to the ends of the ivory and will be my "grind to" reference for each end of the material. I also place pencil marks around the ivory cylinder to create more "grind to" references in the middle of the cylinder. The two pencil marks with the squiggly line between them is a no grind area.

I then take the ivory to the grinder and grind off the material in sort of a faceted technique, between the reference marks and washers. I don't actually make a flat grind between the reference marks, but instead, I leave a slight convex shape. The surface of the finished handle must have a slight convex shape to it. The wire wrap will not stay down tight on the handle if you grind the handle flat. After I grind the facets with a coarse belt on the flat platen, I change to a finer grit belt and slack belt the transitions between the facets smooth. All of this work is done by eye.

This technique may not result in a perfectly symmetrical shape; as it would be if turned on a lathe. But, it needs to be "eyeball close". The honest truth is that once you cut all of the fluting into the handle, it is virtually impossible to see where there was a (very) slight lack of symmetry in the original handle shape.

 

[NickWheeler]

Thanks guys! Steve- I know you've got thick skin, but I didn't want my query to be misinterpreted as disrespectful. I also didn't want to derail your thread in any way. But since this has been such an educational thread, I was hoping the question about forging the blade could just add to that a tiny bit. (which it did for me! ).

As someone that hopes to go to the judging room with 5 test knives someday before I die, this kind of information is EXTREMELY helpful!!! :thumbup:

THANK YOU for your hard work and also your very understanding and humble approach Steve!!!

 

[Bruce Bump]

My MS dagger steel was stock removal after the bar was 300+ layers and laddered.
This WIP is really interesting Steve. I dont recall seeing one for a dagger before esp a MS Test dagger.

 

[timcsaw]

This is great Steve... I find myself drawn back to look at the pictures and reread it over and over again.

The only down-side for me personally, is thinking about the beautiful bits of ivory that float away as it's turned into "saw-dust" while it's being worked. (I have the same problem though with any beautiful handle material be it MOP, Abalone, or great figured wood!).... "Oh the horror... the dust... the chips on the floor... the horror... the horror...."

 

[WyoNonSmith]

I'm glad that the question was answered. I had the same concern and did not voice it. Thanks all, and our patient maker.

 

[Burl Source]

Steve,
Thank You for such a good answer to my question. After reading through your reply I think I could do that part myself. Or at least give it a good try. I very much appreciate that you are willing to share the finer details. Now I will be looking forward to seeing how you do the fluting.
Thanks again, Mark

 

[ron_m80]

Early on this WIP didn't catch my eye, I guess I had no idea what the finished product was going to look like, it's amazing work, and a great looking blade I am amazed.

 

[sculver]

I have completed a lot of the shaping work on the guard for the dagger. More to be done today. I have a lot of photos of the process and need to edit them and write captions before posting to this thread. I'm not sure is I'll be able to get them posted before heading for the AKA Show on Friday. I want to get some shaping work done on the ferrule to have the knife in a presentable condition for the show; so need every hour that I can get to just work on the knife.

The only down-side for me personally, is thinking about the beautiful bits of ivory that float away as it's turned into "saw-dust" while it's being worked.

timcsaw,
I know exactly what you mean!!! It took me a while to get used to the waste from shaping a piece of expensive material. I felt that I should try to saw away as much of the material as possible and save all of those little pieces. But, if the saw blade was to wander off course during cutting, the entire piece would be ruined. So, I got comfortable with the idea of wasting some to save the whole.




Dan Cassidy contacted Master Smith Bert Gaston and also Master Smith Greg Neely about the question of whether a MS test dagger blade is required to be forged. Bert is the Chief Judge for the ABS Master Smith Judging Panel and the ABS Vice Chairman. Greg is the ABS Chairman. Their responses to the question are below.


"John White has stated the case very well. Since applicants for MS cannot submit random pattern Damascus in their art dagger, they have to use manipulated and complicated patterns. These patterns may be destroyed by forging closely to shape, so grinding to shape is in order.

The applicants must make their Damascus steel so this satisfies the requirement of forging. Of course, the Damascus must be at least 300 layers."

Regards,

Bert Gaston, Vice Chairman ABS

As John White and Bert Gaston have pointed out, there are many of the more sophisticated patterns which must be formed by grinding after the patterns are manipulated. The spirit of the rule regarding forging allows this, as the billet and the manipulations will require forging, and a lot of it, in most cases. Some patterns change markedly, depending on how they are treated. For instance, a dagger blade of diamond cross-section made of a ladder pattern billet (cut rungs) will display a series of ovals along the center median of the blade if it's blade bevels are ground in, rather than forged. If the bevels of the blade are forged in instead, the ladders will continue along the blade bevels after grinding, much the same as a ladder pattern on a single-edged blade.

Many of the manipulated patters are purposely ground rather than forged at some point to achieve the desired effect. We have no problem with this, as long as the billet was forged by the bladesmith.

Much the same applies to the one folder allowed by a Master applicant. He or she is allowed one folder as a test knife during the board review; however, it must bear a pattern-welded damascus blade. The board felt that the fact that the bladesmith forged a piece of damascus for the blade met the requirement that the knife bear a forged blade.

I don't know of any folder maker who is forging folder blades to shape, other than some of the guys who are making the primitive style folders with no springs, similar to those carried by the buckskinners of old. Most folder makers begin with a piece of precision-ground steel, whether it be plain carbon steel or the smith's own damascus which has been ground for the purpose. This is why a carbon steel folder is not permitted for Journeyman judging. There's just no forging going on there.

Hope this helps. John White had pretty much covered this, but thought I'd pitch in.

Greg Neely

 

[RogerP]

Conclusive and detailed answers - thanks for posting them here Steve.

Roger

 

[tvandeventer]

Exactly. That is pretty much how I've understood it over the years. These days with more & more intricate damascus patterns appearing, more stock removal is required to maintain them without distortion. "Forge thick - grind thin" was the adage I learned early on." And if you forged the damascus, then the blade, at least on some level, must be considered forged.

I personally opted to forge my masters dagger completely. I always want the flow of the damascus pattern to follow the shape of the knife, curving sharply downward at the choil, and coalecing at the point. The design should sqeeze together and follow the upswept tip of a bowie, or come together equally on a dagger. So I forge all of my blades, even mosaics. I hate the look of a knife simply ground from a piece of damascus, where the blade curves up but the pattern continues straight off the blade. That knife lacks "movement and flow", something you will be judged on when you take you masters test.

Other people have their preferences; this is mine.

Cheers,

TV


Terry Vandeventer
ABS MS

 

[sculver]

I've got the fittings rough shaped and fitted to the knife. So, I'll now post the process that I used to do this work. My machinist skills have been mentioned earlier in this post. If anyone was hoping that I was going to demonstrate how to clamp the fittings materials in a milling machine and come out with finished pieces, you are about to be disappointed; 'cause that ain't gonna' happen. All of this work is done by band saw, grinder, files and sandpaper.

When I make complicated fittings, like the guard for this dagger, I always start with a drawing of the piece. In fact, this entire knife began as a drawing. I use Corel Draw to create my drawings. The Corel software is a bit expensive, but I'm sure there are other drawing programs that will do the same thing at a lower cost. Elements of the knife, like the blade and the guard for this dagger, are created by drawing half of the piece, copying the half, flipping it over and pasting the copy in alignment with the first half. This gives me a perfectly sized and symmetrical drawing that I can use for a pattern to make the part. I will add vertical and horizontal reference lines to the drawing that I will later use to align with reference marks on the material. I have found this method to be the most accurate way for me to create drawings and patterns to use in the construction of a knife. The printed patterns have much cleaner and thinner lines than I can draw with a pencil, so it is easier to finish the part to exact dimensions by removing material to these clean lines on the pattern.

For this guard I had two drawings; one from the side of the piece and one from the top. Once I have the drawings, I use them to think through the process of how I am going to shape the part. One surface on the piece of raw fittings material will be my starting reference point; usually the bottom of the material. All measurements for the other elements of the finished piece will be from that surface. Too, this surface will be used to position the material for shaping of the other elements. At some point in the process of shaping the piece, this beginning surface may be removed. At that time, another area of the material will become the reference point for measurements and alignment. So, to be sure that I don't get ahead of the process and remove a reference area before I am through using it, I will write down a step by step procedure of how the part is to be shaped.

Thinking through the steps that will be required to shape the part not only gives me a step by step process, but will point out anything about the design that I cannot figure out how to finish. If I can't figure out a way to shape an area of the design, it is time to change the design to something that I can create.

The guard material is scribed with reference lines for the pattern.

View of the reference lines on the guard.

The pattern is attached to the guard material with glue. I use stick paste glue on a small area of the guard material to initially attach the pattern. I have about ten seconds to get the pattern aligned with the reference marks before the paste glue sets up. I then flood the surface of the guard material with Super-Glue and roll the paper pattern down into the Super-Glue with a Q-tip. The Q-tip squeezes out the excess Super-Glue and absorbs it.

The material is sawn to the line with a band saw.

A shot of the part during the sawing operation. I begin by chunking out pieces of the steel.

Once I have most of the steel cut away, I will use the band saw blade to remove material very close to the line. I use the teeth on the band saw blade kind of like a file to scrape away material. The table on the band saw must be perfectly squared with the blade so the cuts will be accurate through the material. This is the guard material after the sawing is complete. You can see that I was not able to reach the inside corners of the scrolls. You can also see two projections of material that I left on the bottom of the guard. These are required for a later operation.

The saw teeth marks on outside of the guard are cleaned up on the belt grinder.

I need to transfer the cut lines to the back of the guard material so I can clean out the inside corners of the scrolls. For demonstration purposes of another pattern technique, I have made a pattern out of some thin brass to scribe the lines on the back of the material. Typically, you would only make the brass pattern as half of the design and use it to scribe lines on both halves of your material.

Cutting out the inside corners with a jeweler's saw. This is some pretty heavy cutting for a jeweler's saw, but the little blades are amazingly efficient. Cleaning out these corners could be done later, after the scroll ends have been ground thinner, but chose to do it while the material is at full thickness and while the pattern was still attached to one side of the piece. I will have to come back to clean these areas up more later.

Cleaning up the jeweler's saw marks with a die-sinker's file.

The top view drawing of the guard is glued to the bottom of the material. The reference lines for aligning the pattern are on the two projections that were left on the bottom of the material.

 

[sculver]

Back to the band saw. The guard material has been Super-Glued to a piece of surface ground steel to add support during this operation.

Grinding the guard material down to the lines on the pattern. I have attached the work rest for the grinder on the round wheel arm by using a piece of angle iron bolted to the top of the arm.

Taking comparison measurements to see that I have everything symmetrical. Measurements are taken often to confirm that the piece is being shaped accurately.

I need to thin the scroll ends. I have scribed the scrolls for grinding, using a height gauge. One side of this scroll has been partially ground.

I hold the material to the side of the grinding belt, while looking directly down the face of the belt to see where it is cutting.

The guard with the scrolls thinned.

It's time to remove the projections on the bottom of the guard. The brass pattern is used to scribe the cut lines. The projections are sawn off and the area ground clean.

The design for this guard has the scrolls dropping slightly below the area where the ferrule will be fitted. To remove material from this area, the guard is again Super-Glued to the surface ground steel plate and this area is cut away with the surface grinder.

The scrolls need to be blended to the relieved area where the ferrule will set. A measurement is taken from the drawing to reference the lowest segment of the scroll.

This measurement is transferred to the material using the tips of the calipers.