rampant misinformation...

Pimpinsquee, The way I read your last few post is you think mrstenoien was putting Keven and mete down?

Thats not how i read it, I see it as complimenting them on doing a good job of educating him so he didn't belive and fall for the hype presented in his link.
 
incase you dont know this already, no one here is an expert when it comes to knife making. the information that these knife makers provide is gathered thru their experience. the fact still remains that you insulted those men.
 
remember, opinions are based on experience. if i misread what you intended to say its cause it is late. this thread also has to do with the fact that you are disagreeing with what was said in the other thread on forging vs not forging.
 
Jacob, RELAX....You are reading his post backwards. He is saying Kevin and mete have sheltered him from the hype and misinformation found in sites like the tellercanyon one he showed.

While there are many advantages to forging, it does not alter the atomic, molecular, or structural characteristics of the steel after it has been heat treated. Any and all changes made in forging are changed in the Heat treatment and the final steel is identical to a ground blade. As far as oranges and kumquat's go - that is the difference between austenite, pearlite, ferrite, and martensite (but not nearly as large a difference as the fruit used in the example), as well as the structure shapes .The placements of the atoms in the structures determines the density and other characteristics.
Stacy
 
PimpinSquee said:
incase you dont know this already, no one here is an expert when it comes to knife making. the information that these knife makers provide is gathered thru their experience. the fact still remains that you insulted those men.
Click to expand...

Jacob, where in the world did you come up with this statement?
No one here is an expert on knifemaking? I would say there are many here whom are experts. I also fail to see how you, in all of your 3-4 weeks of bladesmithing experience, would be able to differenciate an expert from
someone who is not.

The man said he wasn't insulting Kevin and Mete, so let it go already.

I don't mean to be rude to you man, but the statements about the metal becoming superior and only usable through the process of forging, is crap from a factual standpoint. In my years of knifemaking, I have learned at least this much. You are entitled to your opinion, and by all means express it, but you are way off base here in MY opinion.
 
And reading further into the article, THIS is why they stated those horrific statements about the steel.
"Mass producers of knives don't have bladesmiths on their payrolls and stock removal doesn't involve forging and heat-cycling of the steel. The simple fact is that if you're going to mass-produce a product you want relatively few steps and little or no individual attention to each object being produced. Additionally, a desired result of mass production is relatively low product price. The process required to produce a really good knife from 5160 or 52100 is labor-intensive and not conducive to a low price.


Our process is not conducive to low prices....
They are attempting to justify their high prices.
It's all about money to some people.
 
Dave Bowen said:
Jacob, where in the world did you come up with this statement?
No one here is an expert on knifemaking? I would say there are many here whom are experts. I also fail to see how you, in all of your 3-4 weeks of bladesmithing experience, would be able to differenciate an expert from
someone who is not.

The man said he wasn't insulting Kevin and Mete, so let it go already.

I don't mean to be rude to you man, but the statements about the metal becoming superior and only usable through the process of forging, is crap from a factual standpoint. In my years of knifemaking, I have learned at least this much. You are entitled to your opinion, and by all means express it, but you are way off base here in MY opinion.
Click to expand...


Well said!

As Mr. Cashen is fond of saying, there are lots of opinions, but only one set of facts. mrstenoien is completely on the ball regarding this, his post was stated properly, and clearly. You need to start following your own advice and spend some more time researching and less time posting. How many of the experts on this site (that, apparently, you're not capable of recognizing as such) need to tell you politely to sit down and shut up before you'll catch their drift?
 
MrPurple said:
Well said!

As Mr. Cashen is fond of saying, there are lots of opinions, but only one set of facts. mrstenoien is completely on the ball regarding this, his post was stated properly, and clearly. You need to start following your own advice and spend some more time researching and less time posting. How many of the experts on this site (that, apparently, you're not capable of recognizing as such) need to tell you politely to sit down and shut up before you'll catch their drift?
Click to expand...

This paragraph is the holy grail of Squee instruction. Let's all pause for a moment of silence and pray that it sinks in. :D
 
And becides, I dont think we should be so judgemental when looking at websites for other knife makers.
I think a guy should have a chance to say whats on his mind on his own website.
I dont think there is a need to get too upset when we read about some views we might have a different take on.
Thats life after all...
 
ummmmmmmmm

errrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

My quote on quotes (unknown originator unfortunately):

"Opinions are like assholes. Everyone has one and they all stink!"

Syn
 
Well, I had a whole screed typed out on this but everyone beat me to my points! :)

In any case I'm glad the thread was started... it's good, especially for us new guys, to get the BS and hype knocked out of our heads.

In my very limited learning, it's becoming rapidly apparent to me that the steel doesn't care if it was shaped by a file, a hammer, or a plasma cutter.
 
Wow, Oh boy …. I have found EVERYTHING thus far in this thread to be entirely complimentary to me, so much so that I am getting that same old uncomfortable feeling that prompts me to point folks to the facts for the answers, not to me, regardless of whether I may be an “expert” or not. I am just one of the guys who post here, if I get put too high I could hurt myself in the fall, so I prefer to stack facts and information up into a tower and then invite all to take shots at it to see if it is as rock solid as I believe it to be.

I would even like to rob myself of one of my favorite points, for which I must give proper credit to the original speaker since it is actually a quote. Since it is so INCREDIBLY rare for a shred of true wisdom to come out from under that farcical dome in Washington D.C. it is entirely proper to credit Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan for uttering the words “You are entitled to your own opinion, but nobody is entitled to their own facts”.

Opinion can be formed by experience, but the danger of trying to draw factual conclusions from our experience is in the interpretation. Say we just experienced an event, a dozen different people will give a dozen different accounts even though they all were present at the same time. Each will interpret the same event in a manner that best fits their personal world view.

Forge a piece of steel for a group and then show the resulting grain, those present who are professional heat treaters and have never held a hammer will immediately see the effects of the heating and cooling alone, the blacksmiths in the crowd will only see the hammering effects, and anvil salesman who knows neither of the other fields may actually see the effects that a good anvil can have on the steel. It is the old parable of the three blind men trying to recognize an elephant.

This tendency to make ones observations adhere to our world view, or what we wish they would be, is what has caused the most misinformation in the blademaking business. I have seen men who I thought were the tops in their area of expertise, with highly analytical and logical minds, simply shut off the reason/logic switch when they encountered data that contradicted the way they prefer to do things, and then promptly turn the switch back on as soon as the danger passed. That is horribly discouraging to me, and I believe it is a much bigger threat than guys starting out mixed up with faulty data.

Now there are other types out there that either know or don’t care to know the facts but deny them because there is more money to be made in the alternative reality they have built, I see none of them represented in this discussion but, they are out there, boy are they out there.

Ad Hominen is a fallacious argument for good reason, it is not based on any kind of logic, but relies upon base emotion to prevail in an argument that is otherwise lost. I have even found that attacking innocently misinterpreted facts to be counterproductive.

Questioning all facts, not attacking, is the way to get all involved thinking about things. Who knows you may have a point wrong and a quick answer to your questioning may help you out, or you may pique the curiosity with your questions and get the presenter to find better answers on his own. Or if he is without conscience and doesn’t really care about the answers, you can at least allow the crowd to watch him squirm and sidestep like an amateur politician, and allow the public to form their own conclusions or even better questions;)
 
mrstenoien said:
http://www.tellercanyon.com/knives-and-steel.html
Click to expand...
The site is a bit text-heavy and could have used a few more photos.
But the owner of that site is very open about the fact that he is writing his own views of things.

He talks about 01 steel and 52100 and he compares them.
He finds 52100 is harder to forge as compared to 01.
Now others may find something else is true, but thats OK. Thats life after all, it's Ok that we all can come to different views on many things with no real harm done.

And the owner of that site is always carefull to explane that what he is talking about are "his views" of the topic at hand.

I just think that there is no point in going over such websites line-by-line and being too judgemental with the way a guy says things.
Perhaps it is true that this or that guy should have said things in a different way, but we should allow the guy the chance to speak his mind on his own site.
No one is being forced to go anywhere on the Internet after all.
 
Allan Molstad said:
The site is a bit text-heavy and could have used a few more photos.
But the owner of that site is very open about the fact that he is writing his own views of things.

He talks about 01 steel and 52100 and he compares them.
He finds 52100 is harder to forge as compared to 01.
Now others may find something else is true, but thats OK. Thats life after all, it's Ok that we all can come to different views on many things with no real harm done.

And the owner of that site is always carefull to explane that what he is talking about are "his views" of the topic at hand.

I just think that there is no point in going over such websites line-by-line and being too judgemental with the way a guy says things.
Perhaps it is true that this or that guy should have said things in a different way, but we should allow the guy the chance to speak his mind on his own site.
No one is being forced to go anywhere on the Internet after all.
Click to expand...

amen to that.
 
Allan Molstad said:
..........I just think that there is no point in going over such websites line-by-line and being too judgemental with the way a guy says things.
Perhaps it is true that this or that guy should have said things in a different way, but we should allow the guy the chance to speak his mind on his own site.
No one is being forced to go anywhere on the Internet after all.
Click to expand...

By way of example, your first two statements are opinon. The final sentence is fact.

While no one is forced to go anywhere on the Internet, the opinions have been placed for public perusal. They thus become rightfully subject to public discussion and critical review.

The "right" to opinion and commentary goes both ways. One suffers the need to be correct in their facts, however, or the public correction is appropriate.
 
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