rampant misinformation...

I don’t have time today to read the entire web page, but so far I don’t think they are too out of line with anything. A quick browse left me with the assessment that the information has about the same ratio of error to sound data that some of the best bladesmithing books that I would recommend have. These guys appear to be working off the best information available to them. They say they welcome input and alternate viewpoints, sounds pretty reasonable and desirous of the truth to me.

The fact that most of the weaker points are very familiar tells me that being too hard on them would be cannibalistic since each and every one of us have been victims of the same misinformation (I more than many of you, for a long time many years ago, why do you think I am so darned crotchety about it?;)) . When you look around and see many of the guys standing beside you have been splattered with some B.S., before beating them away it may be better to look above you and find the manure spreaders spewing it over the masses. I would say shut down the manure spreaders, but I live in America and bull*&$@ is free to fly in every direction here. Perhaps one day we will build a solid roof that will divert the manure to the periphery of a clear public pool of facts, until then we could offer an umbrella others getting hit;)

It can be treacherous to take direct aim at other websites, I have seen some of the worst negativity and nastiness result. I think questions and answers on individual points, leading to a meaningful dialogue is most worthwhile, and less likely to lose the baby with the bathwater. Especially in this case, because all in all I see much more that I like and agree with than bad info. Believe me gentlemen, I have seen much, much, worse than the anything here. I have seen much worse from folks who most of you wouldn’t dream of calling out on it, folks who should know better, or at least have set themselves up as somebody who certainly should know better.

After looking the webpage over, I feel the urge to sit down over some beers with them and shoot the breeze about the information, more than any criticisms I could come up with. Not that discussing the validity of any claim here isn’t entirely a good idea that is much needed, I just can’t criticize the material I have seen so far the way I could some stuff that is much more widely distributed, and accepted.
 
fitzo said:
the public correction is appropriate.
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I just think that on a guys site he should have the chance to speak his mind about his own views.
There is really no need for any of us here getting all down on a guy just because he may think 01 steel is more easy to forge compared to a different steel , and doing so is not really going to help in the end.

If a guy has said that he believes 52100 steel makes a great knife, but is a bear to forge...then he should have the chance to say what he thinks.
If a different person disagrees, then they also do have the chance to say what they think on their own website.

Thats life after all, two people will never always agree on anything, (no matter how sure they feel the facts support only their views)
But what I also think should be always found in the conversation is that people show respect.
In other words, we cant start being "thought police".
We cant start to try to limit the means people use to share their ideas.
But sure, it's Ok to disagree and to do so forcefully...

As for the website in question?
The owner of the site makes it clear in many places that what he is talking about is his own views of different steels....Thus he has every right to speak his mind on his own site...
 
fitzo said:
By way of example, your first two statements are opinon. The final sentence is fact.

While no one is forced to go anywhere on the Internet, the opinions have been placed for public perusal. They thus becomes rightfully subject to public discussion and critical review.

The "right" to opinion and commentary goes both ways. One suffers the need to be correct in their facts, however, or the public correction is appropriate.
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My site is no exception, I knew that some of the stuff I was putting on a couple of pages were pure opinion, based upon my own tastes, that would put me in a distinct minority. So much so that I boldly labeled them at the top with a big bovine "Opinionated Disclaimer". Due to the way I work and the opinions I have formed, I believe vertical wool lined forges are abominations, only fit for light forging, salt tubes or holding trash. I knew I had to distinguish this position from any of the factual information on my site or I would hurt my credibility, even so I did incur the wrath of many of my colleagues over it. I also had the gall to list 52100 and A2 as not the best first choices for anvil jockey’s with just a forge to heat treat in. I can back that up with some sound reasoning but so much of my tastes were going into the decision that I felt it needed to be served with a side of “Opinionated Disclaimer” as well.

Which reminds me... they list on that web page 5160 and 52100 as the two steels they settled with in order to stick to a few and learn them well (one of the wisest things a smith can do, by the way). This stood out to me, since if I have much experience with either of those steels the other would be the best choice for me to make the best blades I could at that time. THey are so close in alloying that one is virtually a carbon enriched version of the other. Learn how to work either of these simple chromium steels and you will have a good handle on both. Use the 52100 for smaller fine cutters and the 5160 and larger choppers and you have covered the bases well. Although my path has put different steels in my hands, this is one good point that I have to agree with them on.
 
Allan Molstad said:
I just think that on a guys site he should have the chance to speak his mind about his own views.........
Click to expand...

I agree completely. It is his website. Barring any illegalities, he can say whatever he wants. He need not change it, regardless, even if "facts" are wrong.

I am in no way passing judgement on that website or the owners' viewpoints. My only position is that opinions placed in the public domain are rightfully subject to public review. I would agree it is preferable to do it in a civilized fashion, showing respect where respect is due.

It strikes me frequently that one of the more difficult tasks to accomplish in knifemaking is to distinguish between what should rightfully be allowed the freedom of opinion and what is subject only to fact. It is my observation that the two have been terribly confused by a lot of self-serving politics.
 
Reading my posts so far tells me that I may be leaving the water a little muddy where I may stand in this. I am 100% behind correcting bad information and greatly reducing its negative effect on our business. We do this by winning hearts and minds (forgive the cliché). We need to draw folks to the facts that are the nourishing antidote to the hype and tripe, not beat them over the head with them.

I also have my limits, I prefer to discuss things with folks and see if they perpetrators or victims, before I make up my mind. Here there are more than the normal amount of sound reasoners, but there are also a few “true believers” who simply will not allow 1 and 2 to be put together since in their world 1+2=5. I don’t bother playing their game, and you can spot them within a few minutes of discussion, but I would suggest that folks have that initial discussion and determine whether this is somebody who could use some tips or a twit who can be labeled “for entertainment purposes only”.
 
fitzo said:
It strikes me frequently that one of the more difficult tasks to accomplish in knifemaking is to distinguish between what should rightfully be allowed the freedom of opinion and what is subject only to fact. .
Click to expand...
But what do you really mean?

What is subject only to fact?.....
 
Allan Molstad said:
I just think that on a guys site he should have the chance to speak his mind about his own views.
There is really no need for any of us here getting all down on a guy just because he may think 01 steel is more easy to forge compared to a different steel , and doing so is not really going to help in the end.

If a guy has said that he believes 52100 steel makes a great knife, but is a bear to forge...then he should have the chance to say what he thinks.
If a different person disagrees, then they also do have the chance to say what they think on their own website.
Click to expand...

I don't think anyone has disagreed with their RIGHT to post whatever they want. Their right, however, doesn't eliminate someone else's right to disagree.
You've cited opinions on the site that no one has disputed, such as 'O-1 is easier to forge than 52100" or something, and ignored the points mentioned by the original poster, such as 'forged steel is LIGHTER and forging and heat cycling etc. are the ONLY legitimate way to make a superior blade steel.' etc, etc. Is that a fair way to approach the discussion?

I'm sure they're decent guys and all, but even decent guys can be mistaken. It helps no one to adopt the "that's their truth, and this is my truth, and after all it's all good..." etc.
 
Allan,
No one is arguing the right to speak an opinion on their own website.
No one is arguing the "opinion" that one steel is harder to forge than another.

The argument remains with misinformation that these two steels are ONLY capable of making a good knife, if they are HAND forged. He ruled out press forging and stock removal as viable methods of creating a quality knife from these steels.

That can be proven to be incorrect by qualified metalurgists, therefore it's not an opinion, but a factual statement. Forging does not change the final atomic structure of steel. If I forged a blade, then CNC machined it into a knife blade, you would not (from a metalurgical standpoint, and probably otherwise) be able to tell the difference from a stock removed blade that wasn't forged.

At least for me, that was the point.
 
Kevin R. Cashen said:
...... I would suggest that folks have that initial discussion and determine whether this is somebody who could use some tips or a twit who can be labeled “for entertainment purposes only”.
Click to expand...

Sound advice, Kevin!:thumbup:
 
Dave Bowen said:
Allan,
No one is arguing the right to speak an opinion on their own website.
No one is arguing the "opinion" that one steel is harder to forge than another.

The argument remains with misinformation that these two steels are ONLY capable of making a good knife, if they are HAND forged. He ruled out press forging and stock removal as viable methods of creating a quality knife from these steels.

That can be proven to be incorrect by qualified metalurgists, therefore it's not an opinion, but a factual statement. Forging does not change the final atomic structure of steel. If I forged a blade, then CNC machined it into a knife blade, you would not (from a metalurgical standpoint, and probably otherwise) be able to tell the difference from a stock removed blade that wasn't forged.

At least for me, that was the point.
Click to expand...


Using logic and reason are absolutely no way of perpetuating the chasing of windmills, sir. I suggest you try and keep fact out of the discussion with some of the posters here.:D ;)
 
talking about opinions, my uncle whos a blacksmith and a master electrician stated that he thinks that knife making is a waste of time. like yall said opinions are just that, opinions. i wasnt going to argue with him since he was already in a bad mood. :D
 
PimpinSquee said:
talking about opinions, my uncle whos a blacksmith and a master electrician stated that he thinks that knife making is a waste of time. :D
Click to expand...

Yeah, I've heard that too. Mostly from guys who have $40,000 worth of boats/snowmobiles/motorcycles etc. in their garage, that they use a couple times a year. :confused:
 
Dave Bowen said:
Allan,
No one is arguing the right to speak an opinion on their own website.
No one is arguing the "opinion" that one steel is harder to forge than another.

The argument remains with misinformation that these two steels are ONLY capable of making a good knife, if they are HAND forged. He ruled out press forging and stock removal as viable methods of creating a quality knife from these steels.

That can be proven to be incorrect by qualified metalurgists, therefore it's not an opinion, but a factual statement. Forging does not change the final atomic structure of steel. If I forged a blade, then CNC machined it into a knife blade, you would not (from a metalurgical standpoint, and probably otherwise) be able to tell the difference from a stock removed blade that wasn't forged.

At least for me, that was the point.
Click to expand...

Bang on the dot here.

Something that is subjective is an opinion, "I find these steels to be harder to use and do not reccommend them"

Something objective is a fact. "These steels only respondto forging to make aGOOD knife blade."

something subjective is based on that persons own experience, and we cannot duplicate that and so cannot proove or disproove it. Something objective is based on the physical characteristics and CAN be duplicated and so prooved or disproved with investigation.

Their "facts" as they have stated them about 5160 and 52100 and forging are objective facts and any metalurgist can disproove those same facts.
 
I would just like to say that I'm amazed at all the response this got, and allan, the only reason I brought this particular website up was because it turned up as the second result on the worlds largest search engine when searching for information on L6, number of hits and number of links to a site are the biggest factors in ranking websites for google, this means that a LOT of people are perusing that site, people who may not know how to seperate the opinions from the facts from the BS on the site
 
I'm probably the least "expert" or educated guy here, but I'd like to say I'm encouraged by this thread.

The number and tone of the responses confirms my opinion that this forum has far more intelligent questions, provable answers and genuine science, than it does BS. Thanks to all the "old timers" for keeping us new guys from getting buried in, misled by, and confused by shoddy info. :thumbup:
 
Mr. Cashen, I wanted to thank you for your well balanced and thoughtful posts on this thread. It is really a pleasure to read you're balanced opinion which speaks of your experience in the area. I think I will be spending some time tonight at your website to read more of what you have to say!
 
I like the one where someone says a ton of feathers weigh less than a ton of lead :)

OH K my opinion :rolleyes: :)
stock grinding has to be better than forging. Just kidding BUT
I'll bet a dollar and two donuts that more steel is messed up in a forge than from bar stock on a grinder,,
in a forge if you over heat it you burn out carbon, on the Grinder you don't :D (taking for granted that both guys know how to grind) :)

after all too, the stock grinder is using basically forged steel in Bar form from the factory where you are taking their word to what you are getting.:p

and when all is said. if you do not H/T your knife properly it don't matter any way
so what are we left with.. now :)

for the younger guys that need to learn more "that would include me also, :) "

experience is only as good as what you've learned from it and then put it to practice or it does you no good, and then to learn more from that..it don't stop there..

you guys remember this
The “lowdown” on smithing
http://www.cashenblades.com/articles/lowdown/lowdown.html

also
Better quality knife, forging or stock removal
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=288176&perpage=20&pagenumber=1
read in to it all..

Understanding Steel make-up
and http://www.knivesby.com/robert-cella-1.html

grain size being too small is not a good thing ??
http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=321418
 
Dan Gray said:
...experience is only as good as what you've learned from it and then put it to practice or it does you no good, and then to learn more from that..it don't stop there...
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You got that right, chief. A colleague of mine once described a shoddy coworker as having "One year's experience, ten times." Not the same as ten years' "real" experience.
 
Thank goodness no one tried to mess around with my personal favorite words, "Edge Packing":eek: :grumpy: :D
 
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