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Randall 14 Vs Busse Sarsquatch
- Thread starter MARSUS
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well I know the Sarsquatch can be found for about $300 here on this forum and I looked up the the Randall 14 S can be purchased as a buy it now for as low as $685 with free shipping, so I'll have to call you out on the price. And if you still think your right, I'll buy you a mint new Sarsquatch and you can buy me a new Randall 14S
if you find other market price, you let me know
http://www.randallknives.com/catalog.php?action=modeldetail&id=27
well I know the Sarsquatch can be found for about $300 here on this forum and I looked up the the Randall 14 S can be purchased as a buy it now for as low as $685 with free shipping, so I'll have to call you out on the price. And if you still think your right, I'll buy you a mint new Sarsquatch and you can buy me a new Randall 14S
if you find other market price, you let me know
Because the Busse Sarsquatch has been built by few and they finds around still,when it won't be this way the prices they will climb.To the origin the prices are equal for the two knives,for as the Randall he is built he should cost more four times-
Because if I peeled the apples I would have gone on for years
In the normal use both the knives don't have problems,on youtube there are so many tests of Busse that cut blocks,in these tests the Blows go out entire or with some little scratch,in Italy many impassioned young people buy Busse and they think that the Randalls are beautiful but only from collection-I have made this test because I think that the Randalls are knives built for being used and they are collected for their quality and their old American charm-This is not a test against the Busse and I would have posted her even if the Randall 14 had gone out battered of it,besides also I have knives of Busse and I like-In the test there have been witnesses-
During the order a small part is paid, the rest when the knife is ended,with a small figure you can enroll in the randall knife Society and possession the knife in briefer times-
Yes, Randalls are definitely built for use, and that's how they got their name - making knives for soldiers to use in WW2. Nowadays, of course, it's easy to see why many people would consider them collectors' items only, since there's a five year wait time for Randall knives and order limits, and what not. That of course doesn't change the performance of the knives, but I for one can't really fault anyone for being a tad unwilling to beat on a knife they had to wait five years for.
About this test, I would like to ask you about the edges and grinds on those knives tested. Which knife had the thicker edge, and thicker grind? That's an interesting question, because you often hear Busses being called sharpened prybars and too thick to cut well, but in this case a 3/16" thick Busse is being tested with a Randall knife made of 1/4" thick stock with a rather low sabre grind. So in this case, the Busse at least wasn't too thick.
Not quite. You pay a $ 50 deposit to them now, and then, sometime in the year 2014 they send you the knife you ordered, and then you pay for the knife the price that the knife went for in their catalog for the year when you ordered the knife and paid the deposit. It's a little complicated. But yes, the wait is rather long.
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It is hard to compare Randall and Busse knives. I own dozens of each. Obviously, I like both.
Samael is spot on about Randall pricing.
My take on ordering Randalls is that there are three basic ways to do so:
1) Direct, but the wait is nearly five years. Orders placed today are completed in 02/2014. The $50 deposit holds the price. Regardless of whether you order direct or through other means as described below, you should request their catalog, which explains the various options and pricing: https://www.randallknives.com/catalogrequest.php
2) Through a dealer, either from their current inventory for instant gratification, or ordered, meaning that you can specify the options, and the wait is generally less, anywhere from a year to a couple of years. The timing of delivery depends on the dealer, and how many knives they have in the pipeline are spoken for. The pricing can also vary from dealer to dealer. Some charge a premium, and some charge catalog price at the time of delivery (for example, if you ordered the knife in 2008, and it is delivered in 2010, you pay the 2010 catalog price). I can recommend specific Randall dealers offline.
3) Through eBay, but this is generally the highest price you are likely to pay. Sure, some bargains do come up from time to time, but they're snapped up fairly quickly by the collectors who recognize the value.
My latest Randall is a standard Model 16 Diving Knife that I picked up this morning for $425.99. The 2009 catalog price is $385, so $425 is very reasonable. Like the Model 14 as described in this thread, the Model 16 is designed to be durable.
One other thing that must be noted when comparing the price of Randall and Busse knives is that the Randall includes a sheath, but the Busse does not. Whether or not the sheath is included is not the issue, but it is when you're comparing price points. A quality sheath will cost at least $50, so figure that in when comparing these knife brands.
Samael is spot on about Randall pricing.
My take on ordering Randalls is that there are three basic ways to do so:
1) Direct, but the wait is nearly five years. Orders placed today are completed in 02/2014. The $50 deposit holds the price. Regardless of whether you order direct or through other means as described below, you should request their catalog, which explains the various options and pricing: https://www.randallknives.com/catalogrequest.php
2) Through a dealer, either from their current inventory for instant gratification, or ordered, meaning that you can specify the options, and the wait is generally less, anywhere from a year to a couple of years. The timing of delivery depends on the dealer, and how many knives they have in the pipeline are spoken for. The pricing can also vary from dealer to dealer. Some charge a premium, and some charge catalog price at the time of delivery (for example, if you ordered the knife in 2008, and it is delivered in 2010, you pay the 2010 catalog price). I can recommend specific Randall dealers offline.
3) Through eBay, but this is generally the highest price you are likely to pay. Sure, some bargains do come up from time to time, but they're snapped up fairly quickly by the collectors who recognize the value.
My latest Randall is a standard Model 16 Diving Knife that I picked up this morning for $425.99. The 2009 catalog price is $385, so $425 is very reasonable. Like the Model 14 as described in this thread, the Model 16 is designed to be durable.
One other thing that must be noted when comparing the price of Randall and Busse knives is that the Randall includes a sheath, but the Busse does not. Whether or not the sheath is included is not the issue, but it is when you're comparing price points. A quality sheath will cost at least $50, so figure that in when comparing these knife brands.
coolhand68
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I find it interesting that many Busse fans will use the destruction tests on youtube as testament to the Busse knives toughness, yet when a Busse is outperformed by another knife, these tests are no longer valid. When Busse holds up better to abuse than a Strider or Chris Reeve knife the Busse fans won't dismiss the tests as proof of toughness and quality. But here we have a Randall that clearly held up better and there is all sorts of speculation. I have nothing against any particular knife brand, so my comments are not in support of Randall or against Busse, just a neutral observation.
The issue of price should not even be considered as part of an argument. If you are willing to spend $300 on a Busse that doesn't make it any more or less better than a $600 Randall. Same as if you spend $700 on a Busse, it's not necessarily any better than a $150 Fallkniven. Cost is irrelevant in terms of value and performance once you are paying over $100 for a knife anyway. A $1,000 knife doesn't slice any better than a $30 knife.
The issue of price should not even be considered as part of an argument. If you are willing to spend $300 on a Busse that doesn't make it any more or less better than a $600 Randall. Same as if you spend $700 on a Busse, it's not necessarily any better than a $150 Fallkniven. Cost is irrelevant in terms of value and performance once you are paying over $100 for a knife anyway. A $1,000 knife doesn't slice any better than a $30 knife.
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the way people hoard busses then jack the prices up on the aftermarket turned me off a long time ago. sure infi is a good steel and busse is a good knife (i own a couple), but there are a lot of good steels/knives out there...and this post is just another example that infi is not the mythical indestructable steel that some would have you to believe.
:thumbup:
t1mpani
Platinum Member
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- Jun 6, 2002
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I have scanned through this and can't find a single "Busse fan" saying that the destruction tests aren't valid. I have seen that point of view on this thread, although by people who say the exact same thing every time, Busse or not. But, that said...
This Busse has the "competition cutter" edge geometry on it, which is a very fine edge designed for cutting on soft targets (clean wood with no hidden nails or knots, etc). This is a variation of the standard or "combat" Sarsquatch, and the difference is all in the edge geometry. Busse only started doing this within the last 18 months or so, as many customers had requested a more slice-ready version of some of the knives. My problem with this comparison has a few points:
1) The absolute thinnest possible factory grind on a Busse knife was chosen--a grind that represents less than 5% of Busse products--to compare toughness to another knife
2) No data on how many hits there were with each blade
3) The shot of the Randall's edge is noticeably farther away and less detailed than the shot of the Busse's edge.
Okay, now time for concessions---no, INFI is not magic. It is steel, it grinds like steel, it sharpens like steel. What is exceptional about it is the combination of properties it has--its toughness at very high hardness (a hardness that gives it very good edge holding in abrasive cutting and resistance to blunting-type deformation) combined with its relatively good corrosion resistance, all taken together is fairly unique. Basically, I rate it as a semi-stainless version of 3V, which is another excellent--but not magic--steel. I have chipped INFI, I've chipped 3V, I've chipped L6, and I've seen pictures of chipped S7. The fact that they've chipped doesn't mean that these aren't tough steels. It means that absolutely every steel, rock, bone, piece of glass in the world has a tensile strength based on its properties and the amount of the material present.
It's at this point, again, that I feel the need to bring up that the finest, thinnest (and yes, most fragile) factory edge geometry available was chosen for this comparison of toughness. I'm reminded of a "test" of full size trucks that Car and Driver magazine published two years ago, where one of the three tested had the smallest V8 engine available from the manufacturer, and the other two were their brand powerhouses. The excuse that's always given when this kind of lopsidedness shows up is that, "Well, it's the only one we could get in time for the test." And yet, when the conclusions were drawn at the end of the article, they kept harping on how all of the reviewers felt that Truck A was just very underpowered compared to the competition. Well no shit.
Now, Randall. I think the claims that Randall knives are only for collecting and can't handle rough use are complete BS. Randall makes a damned decent knife. Also, they chose long ago to sacrifice edge holding in activities like skinning in order to gain toughness for field use, both in their steel selections and also in the hardness range they shoot for being in the mid-50s HRC. And yes, I know, somebody whom you'd trust your life to and you know would never lie to you skinned 700 elephants with his Randall drop point and never sharpened it once. Hasn't been my experience with them. At all. Still, they've gone to war, on safari, and with expeditions for generations now, and their record is proven.
My problem with them is that since W.D. died, the brand largely seems to be resting on its laurels and no longer trying. All of the Randalls I have or have had, have been older ones, and I've never ordered one new. However, of all of my knife knut friends, two have had serious issues with knives they'd ordered in the past five years. The first ordered nickel furniture on his knife and no sawback, and after four years received a knife with brass furniture and with a sawback. No problem--mistakes happen. He contacted them and sent it back, assured that he'd have the correct knife in short order. A couple of weeks go by and he doesn't hear anything, so he calls to verify that they'd received it. Get's a "it's pretty busy here now and you just have to wait your turn" answer. Okay, the tone bugged him a little bit, but he knew the busy claim was accurate so he waited some more. At three months, he called back and asked for an update, and they didn't have record of his knife coming in. So he went down to the post office, got them to print him out a page that showed proof that the box had been signed for, scanned it and emailed it to them, and after about a week received in the mail his replacement knife, which had no sawback but still a brass guard.
The other issue was just this past year. Now, this is a LONG time customer--Jaimie's in his sixties and ordered his first Randall when he was something like fifteen or sixteen. He carried one in Vietnam and has used them hunting and fishing all over Canada and most of the northern US. His expectations (and high opinion) of them are based on his experiences over those years. So, the most recent one he got was a model 14, and he took it deer hunting/camping with him. When cleaning time came, he used it to split the sternum. Now, we're not talking about chopping bone here. This is a slice against an extremely soft and flexible bone that you just pull right through. I've done it several times with a Buck 110. He heard several popping sounds during the pull-through, and when the blade came out he found several huge chunks missing out of the blade. I don't just mean the very edge, these had gone up into the primary grind. When he called them to talk about it, he received a fairly nasty rebuff saying that if he was dumb enough to "chop bone" with his knife then it was abuse and his own fault. He's more the type to avoid confrontations, but after I heard that and saw for myself what damage the knife had taken, I took pictures and emailed them to Randall to say that even if the use were abusive--which it wasn't--the damage seemed excessive and someone might want to take a look at it. Basically the response I got back can be summed up as, "thank you--we know how to make knives."
I took it down to a local machine/tool shop and asked for a hardness test on the C scale. This had to be done on the flat portions of course, but as the 440B knives are not differentially hardened anyway it told me all I need to know. Testing five points along the blade, the hardness ranged from 50-52 HRC. Pretty much the hardness of a hammer or cheap screwdriver. So I got them to print me out the results and gave them to Jaime (the owner) to send back along with his knife, and fired off a copy to Gary Randall asking him if five to seven points below the stated hardness fell under the heading of 'knowing how to make a knife.' In the end, finally, they sent Jaimie a new one. It took like five or six months but they did it. No acknowledgment of the mistake or the apologies for the attitudes presented, but he did get a knife back.
Here's the original (and the little dots along the blade above the primary grind are the hardness testing points). Keep in mind, this was from slicing--not chopping, batoning or any impact of any kind.
Now, my point--yes, believe it or not I have one.
EVERY company that makes anything, knives or cars or bars of soap, will have duds make it through the process. Just a mathematical certainty. But, the way the problem is dealt with says a lot about the company. Bo Randall would have bent over backwards to make these kind of problems right. It was his responsibility to make each knife with his name on it be as good as it could be, not the customer's. But, of course, he's the one that made the company what it was. I've had occasion to make use of the Busse warranty. It wasn't actually on a Busse but a Swamp Rat with a bit of a HT problem, but the same thing applies all over all of their brands. I emailed Eric Isaacson, and got a reply both from he and Jerry in the same day. When the knife got to them, I got called, had the problem explained to me, and was holding my new knife within the week.
Also, Bo was an innovator. In WW2, 440B stainless was a new and awesome cutlery steel---a stainless steel that could hold an edge!! Incredible!!! Bo was just about the only knifemaker using it, and spent time working with it to maximize its potential as a cutlery steel. You know what else was new then? The new Goodyear all-nylon corded tires! Up to 2.5 times as strong as traditional tires using Rayon!! Hell yeah, baby!!! Often lasted up to ten or even fifteen thousand miles without a blowout!!! What more do you need?...
So, the comparison I'd make from my own experiences would go something like----------
Randall (under W.D.)---dedicated customer service, made purpose-built knives out of a material they'd put time and work into developing to maximize the type of performance they were building for.
Busse (Under Jerry Busse)---dedicated customer service, makes purpose-built knives out of a material they've put time and work into developing to maximize the type of performance they build for.
Randall (after W.D.)---still utilizing the cutting edge of 1940s materials technology in spite of an explosion of options within the industry, with a customer service attitude that seems to be "there are plenty of people who want 'em so just feel lucky you got one."
Busse (after Jerry)---time will tell.
Randall made its name because of its high quality products, and its willingness to stand behind them, and from that grew a desireability that drove up both the price and the prestige of owning one. Busse has done the same. Right now, Busse is standing behind their products. Randall will if you twist their arm and hold their toes to the fire, all the while spouting derisive comments toward you. So, is a new Randall capable of being your battle buddy? Yep. Can you count on them if something goes wrong? Well, I can only speak for myself...
MARSUS---A sense of humor is a good thing.
I had already noticed yours:thumbup:
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