Randall 14 Vs Busse Sarsquatch

[Maqua]

I have renewed interest in the Model 14 I ordered 5 years ago which I should receive June 25th. I chose O-1 and the Border Patrol handle, however.

 

[Samael]

Cool. Don't be surprised if it takes a few months longer than that - they're, um, "running a little behind."

 

[on_the_edge]

I figured some of you thin skinned types would find something to be offended about in my post. I'm not speaking for ALL Busse owners, so if I didn't direct a post directly at you why get so defensive?

I don't think anyone is getting offended or defensive. You may be, but I will not be so presumptuous and will reserve judgment. I think that many here have responded because they have information, questions, or observations based upon what they are reading. Their responses are no less valid than your own, nor any less welcome merely because you did not direct a post at them.

I'm not going to go digging through archives to provide samples, you've all seen this in regard to one maker or another, and again, I haven't directed my comments at anyone in particular in this thread.

Well, maybe you're not going to go digging in the Busse archives because there is nothing there to support your statement. No matter--I have been around for a few years and cannot recall a single instance where someone who owned a Busse first praised this type of "test" and then later outright dismissed it because a Busse did not come out on top when compared to a non-Busse knife. Please show me even one example where this has happened.

Where in my post did I say that Busse owners ONLY own Busse's?

Again, you implied it in plain english right here:

I find it interesting that many Busse fans will use the destruction tests on youtube as testament to the Busse knives toughness, yet when a Busse is outperformed by another knife, these tests are no longer valid.

You specifically call out Busse owners exclusively. You then state that when a Busse is "outperformed" in some aspect, "many Busse fans...{contend that}...these tests are no longer valid". How do you know that those very same fans don't own Randall's (or any other knife that goes up against a Busse)? And if they do own those knives, why would they suddenly dismiss the results of such demonstrations? They would not, would they? Yet your blanket statement about many Busse fans seems to indicate that such a dismissal by Busse fans is a foregone conclusion, which strongly implies that all those Busse fans only owned Busses. Really, it is not so hard to see that you think Busse fans are a bunch of hypocrites enamored only with all things Busse.

 

[PatriotDan]

Thanks for your work Marsus. It's nice to see that a 440 blade is capable of sustaining such punishment. I hope the edges aren't permanently messed up.

Would it be possible for you to post some measurements from the Randall and the Sarsquatch blade geometry? Like edge angle and thickness of the edge shoulder(the part where edge bevel meets grind)? I own a model 14 but no competition grade Busse so Id be very interested. Thanks!

 

[MARSUS]

Thanks for your work Marsus. It's nice to see that a 440 blade is capable of sustaining such punishment. I hope the edges aren't permanently messed up.

Would it be possible for you to post some measurements from the Randall and the Sarsquatch blade geometry? Like edge angle and thickness of the edge shoulder(the part where edge bevel meets grind)? I own a model 14 but no competition grade Busse so Id be very interested. Thanks!

Thanks-
the part where edge bevel meets grind for the Randall 1/16,for the Busse 2/16,the grind angle for the Randall 25°,the grind for the busse is convex as the ax,I think that for this the Busse he was also benefitted-The Busse I have mended him and I have made the v sharpning,I will refer a test with this type of sharpening ,it is not that to strength to mend it become me a fish knife

 

[coolhand68]

I don't think anyone is getting offended or defensive. You may be, but I will not be so presumptuous and will reserve judgment. I think that many here have responded because they have information, questions, or observations based upon what they are reading. Their responses are no less valid than your own, nor any less welcome merely because you did not direct a post at them.




Well, maybe you're not going to go digging in the Busse archives because there is nothing there to support your statement. No matter--I have been around for a few years and cannot recall a single instance where someone who owned a Busse first praised this type of "test" and then later outright dismissed it because a Busse did not come out on top when compared to a non-Busse knife. Please show me even one example where this has happened.




Again, you implied it in plain english right here:



You specifically call out Busse owners exclusively. You then state that when a Busse is "outperformed" in some aspect, "many Busse fans...{contend that}...these tests are no longer valid". How do you know that those very same fans don't own Randall's (or any other knife that goes up against a Busse)? And if they do own those knives, why would they suddenly dismiss the results of such demonstrations? They would not, would they? Yet your blanket statement about many Busse fans seems to indicate that such a dismissal by Busse fans is a foregone conclusion, which strongly implies that all those Busse fans only owned Busses. Really, it is not so hard to see that you think Busse fans are a bunch of hypocrites enamored only with all things Busse.

Wow, I really got your panties in a twist over this huh? Again, I never said that Busse owners are exclusive and do not own other knives. That's ridiculous. You got your ass hurt over my comments and took them very personally. You chose to read into my comments and LOOK for something to be offended about, get over yourself. They just knives, and in capable hands a $30 Ontario will perform just as well as a $500 Brand X. But SOME people who pay $500 for Brand X don't want to hear that. You sound like one of those people.

Again, I've owned Busse's and I like them. But I don't sleep with ANY knife under my pillow and jack off to their catalog, so I guess that means I'm a hater

 

[Buffalohump]

If you want a Randall, I recommend ordering from the factory. I went through the process and it was very agreeable.

Five years is not such a long time to wait, relatively speaking. I have a 'sportsman's bowie' due in 2011. I think the total was $450 for a 9 inch stainless blade and leather washer handle and brass guard.

I'd say that's a pretty good deal, no matter how you slice it. Especially considering it comes with a beautiful leather sheath.

I don't see the point of chopping concrete either. Both knives did pretty good with the tree branch, a task for which these knives are expressly designed.

I have nothing against Busse, I actually own a couple of their knives, but they are not indestructible by any means. The first time I took my BM out for a bit of exercise it sustained a small chip in the edge. I was breaking down some windfall that had sand on it and I believe that was the cause.

Next time I'll be more careful.

 

[on_the_edge]

It sounds like everyone here is pretty much in agreement that no edge and no knife is impervious to damage, sometimes even under conditions that most folks would consider normal for knife usage. I'm for one am glad that Marsus had (has) the courage to do what he did to that Randall, and I am glad the Randall held up as well as it did. I think that speaks very well for Marsus and the knife. :thumbup: I know I would not have been able to do it.

 

[Lycosa]

Boys...relax.
Some knife "testing" has be taken to a level of insanity. Let's keep this in perspective.

 

[Jerry Busse]

Who'd have thunk it?. . . I am shocked and amazed!!!!

I stand humbled by the superiority of 440 series stainless. . . I guess, deep down, I always have. . . Yes Virginia, there really is a "Surgical Stainless" and an avid Randall collector just used it to cut down the legendary INFI steel.

Look at the poor Sarsquatch, it looks scarred and battered while the Randall looks as good as new with a simple rinsing of water!!! . . .

Seriously?. . . Forget the knives. . . I want to buy a bottle of that water!!! . . . I don't know what's in it. . . but it seems like it's a whole lot more powerful than the 190 proof Everclear that I've been drinking!!!! . . .

Let's drink!!!! :thumbup:

Jerry

 

[Steelhed]

Much has been said in this thread about Busse owners disavowing the validity of this test. Well, I am not going to say any test lacks validity based on its parameters. You test something using whatever methodology you desire and then analyze the results according to your original hypothesis (the reason you conducted the test in the first place). The test and the results should only have validity in that context.

Here's my problem with tests of the type displayed in this thread. While the tester may be an upstanding citizen in every regard, and his intentions nothing but honorable in his efforts to reveal steel and knife characteristics through various kinds of test parameters, the way he presents them here leaves him open to a wide variety of interpretations, including fraud.

This is why most scientific testing is done according to certain protocols, and then subject to peer review and repeat testing by second and third parties before factual conclusions can be drawn.

Even the Noss tests using video to capture all the gorey details could be faked (look alike inferior knives substituted for the real thing for example). Not saying they are, just that they could be.

In this case, I would have liked to have seen both knives actually striking the wood and concrete, with close-ups of the edge after each strike, or equal number of strikes. Unfortunately, the way the test is conveyed the Busse could have been used to chop up all of the concrete and then the Randall just positioned atop the remains. Not saying this happened, just that because of the presentation it cannot be ruled out.

So in the end I can draw no conclusions one way or the other about either knife. I know I have personnaly chipped a couple of Busses during rough use by accidently hitting rocks while limbing alder wood for the barbecue. I have also chipped stainless and high carbon non-stainless knives the same way. It happens.

Perhaps Marsu could run another test with the resharpened Busse and the practically pristine Randall using a video recorder showing the strikes and the results as described above. I would surely love to see the Randall break up that concrete with all those hard rock inclusions while not even registering a roll or a ding, much less a chip. That must be one amazing knife.

 

[Lycosa]

Jerry---Always glad when you chime in! Always...

 

[GregS]

Jerry---Always glad when you chime in! Always...

+1 on that.

Everclear?:barf:

That Randall has got to be the baddest, toughest, bestest knife... in the entire world. Not a ding or a roll after chopping concrete? I bow in its direction.

 

[MARSUS]

Who'd have thunk it?. . . I am shocked and amazed!!!!

I stand humbled by the superiority of 440 series stainless. . . I guess, deep down, I always have. . . Yes Virginia, there really is a "Surgical Stainless" and an avid Randall collector just used it to cut down the legendary INFI steel.

Look at the poor Sarsquatch, it looks scarred and battered while the Randall looks as good as new with a simple rinsing of water!!! . . .

Seriously?. . . Forget the knives. . . I want to buy a bottle of that water!!! . . . I don't know what's in it. . . but it seems like it's a whole lot more powerful than the 190 proof Everclear that I've been drinking!!!! . . .

Let's drink!!!! :thumbup:

Jerry

Hello Jerry,I are pleasantly surprised of your spirit I have others your knives and I have made another test with a Busse FFBM that I will post to brief,in this other test the FFBM has gone out very well of it.The test has been made in presence of witnesses and I has posted the results water is not miraculous simply the randall 14 have gone out better of it,Is 440 better than the INFI?Surely Randall has done a good job-I am 53 years old and I have had thousand of knives, I collect them but I use them and I like the good knives,I don't side previously for any mark but only for the best knives-Some forumitas it makes insinuations on the truthfulness of the test,who sees some bad faith in everything and because himself is in bad faith ,I have not earned anything in it rather before the test I had a new knife,the Randall I had already been using it for so many years-Also I must doubt of all the tests that I see on youtube and on the forums?However with little job I have put again to new also the Busse Sarsquatch-According to me the Busse sarsquatch has suffered the visible damages because of the too hardness and when I have mended him I have had confirmation of it,besides I am convinced that put in bending he would easily break because the whole knife is moderate hard in a knife to be used the tang and the back they should be more elastic-I had always made the test of the Blows FFBM for the Italian forum and to brief I will also postit in this beautiful forum with it I have made you a beautiful publicity and the impassioned Italian of Busse have remained very enthusiastic of it,have you perhaps paid me for this?Randall has not even paid me for the posted test-I had two Busse new and now I have two Busse put again to new,however I am satisfied to make the tests even if I lose money,life is brief and only and he is also done of small satisfactions-
Jerry, many impassioned of Busse collect them without never using them and even you should reserve your spirit toward of them-I hope to come to the next Blade Show and to know you however I will be very careful to eat to your table
Among few days I will post the other test of the FFBM,and I wait for your criticism:thumbup:
PS:after the cut of the construction block on the blades of both the knives she has remained the dust of the cement,what he is seen on the Randall before the washing is the dust of the cement,On the Sarsquatch it is noticed less because it is not shiny(Competition Finish)-

 

[MARSUS]

QUOTE=Steelhedcan
-------------------------------
Hi,with the preceding answer I think about having also answered to you,should I also refer the test Of the Busse BBFM then, even if has he gone out of it well? have posted only the test, if the Randall broke him I posted it equally the witnesses were also present for this,now you can say who the witnesses are,they are two affiliate of the Italian forum"mckf-forum.com" where I have posted the tests-
Thanks

 

[GregS]

I'm on the edge of my seat, depending on your test results... I may need to sell all my Busses.:yawn:

 

[Lycosa]

I'm afraid to look!!

 

[Steelhed]

Marsus - I didn't say your test was a fraud. I said the way it was presented made it impossible for anyone to draw any conclusions one way or the other. I will say the same of any test, favorable for a Busse or not, that goes to such abusive lengths and then posts before and after pictures. You have to understand this is the Internet. People have been known to manipulate it for their own gain. No one needs to pay you for a biased test. All you need to have is a big Randall collection you are about to sell. You go on line in a place like this, show how the Randall out performs a Busse and bingo, Randall resell prices go up. Suspicions abound, as they should on an anonymous medium like this, especially when your test varies so significantly from my own experience. There are other tests here where Busses have chipped. I don't doubt the results because the tester is a Busse fan. He had no axe to grind, so to speak. He used his knife hard on a chain and it chipped. Chips happen. It's the comparison tests that raise flags, especially when one knife walks away from the fray unscathed while the other looks like it went 10 rounds with Mike Tyson back when he could fight.

If your test is honest you have no worries, and I will look at your next one, but be forewarned, if it comes across like this one did you might as well not waste your time because it will have little value to those of us who appreciate well presented factual information. Others may cheer you on, but not me.

I appreciate anyone who takes the time to test knives, especially expensive ones tested to a level of damage. If you are so inclined all I ask is take the extra time to document it well so that naysayers like myself can put the BS button on hold.

As for witnesses, I have witnesses who saw me write this post. They'll swear up and down that I didn't.

 

[MARSUS]

QUOTE=Steelhed
----------------------------------------
Hi,
Each is free to believe or not to believe,however I must not sell anything rather frequenting this forum I have bought other knives,Randall doesn't need this test to sell knives and Busse it will keep on selling equally his-

 

[thomas-83]

The tests are true, I was present with marsus.
The sarsquatch has received many damages because it is less thick at the edge (sorry, i don't speak much english).
In fact I have made of the tests with a wilkinson dartmoor in 440C (that it is much thickness to the edge), and the edge has not been chipped.

With this, nobody says that the 440 is better of the infi, marsus has made a comparative between two knives, not between two steels, and the randall it has resulted sturdier in this test