Random Thought Thread

[bluemax_1]

I'm genuinely curious: is it possible for any master smith to achieve a consistent, proper heat treatment by hand/eye without modern tempering and testing equipment? Or will there always be some level of "it is what it is" without modern equipment? All this is assuming the maker is working on one blade at a time, not cranking out big batches.

Is it possible? Absolutely. Smiths have been doing it for centuries, before the advent of modern equipment.

Can most of the ones who claim to be able to nowadays, do it with any decent consistency? That's the big question.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

I'm genuinely curious: is it possible for any master smith to achieve a consistent, proper heat treatment by hand/eye without modern tempering and testing equipment? Or will there always be some level of "it is what it is" without modern equipment? All this is assuming the maker is working on one blade at a time, not cranking out big batches.

I’m not sure how to answer this, but I was fool enough to open this can of worms, so perhaps I’ll just keep stepping into it.

Is it possible? Sure, I guess. I’ve owned plenty of knives that were done in this fashion, and even made some, that ‘worked fine’. I guess if that’s your target, this isn’t a big deal. But, I’m guessing that if you’re a CPK enthusiast, it’s likely because you have higher expectations.

None of this is to say it can’t be done, however I’ve personally experienced enough anecdotal (and sometimes evidential) examples to make me recognize that there’s just as much misguided self-confidence involved in ‘mastery’ as there might be genuine skill and understanding. For example, many moons ago I attended a world-reknowned bladesmithing event, where over seventy of us were there to learn and share, and more than a few were ‘master smiths’. During one of the demonstrations, the bladesmith demoing (using a forge with a thermocouple in it to gauge temp) brought the blade to what sure appeared to be ‘the right’ temp to quench at and asked the crowd what the blade temp was. Not one of them guessed within 150°.

To further exemplify this, Larrin did an article on heat treating 52100, and a bladesmith asked if he could participate by providing some test coupons he had made. Here’s a screen shot of the results as shown in the article.

For twenty years I’ve listened to all of this get hashed and rehashed, and really what it boils down to -for me- is whether or not someone wants to let their ego get in the way, or whether or not they have an interest in eliminating variables so they can optimize performance. You can be the judge as to whether or not you want to trust the carpenter building your house to make all of his cuts to length by eye, or maybe hire someone that uses a ruler to measure length.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Is it possible? Absolutely. Smiths have been doing it for centuries, before the advent of modern equipment.

There are loads and loads of examples of tests demonstrating that even ‘the ancient masters’ didn’t have the control needed to nail this. What was once the pinnacle of advancement and technology is today’s ’also-ran’.

Nate’s pretty big on pointing this out - does anyone truly believe that Musashi would elect to use nihonto from 700 years ago today, if he had access to a sword made by CPK or Dan Keffeler? I think it’s more than fair to present the parallel of using a chariot for battle versus an F35. We haven’t sat still in our development.

…and bluemax_1, I know you know all this, I’m just quoting you because it was the obvious segue.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

Do you all think that this tip is burned or compromised? I bought it this way new, and was going to send it in....
View attachment 2618080

Probably

But they're probably all burnt

Assuming that is heat color, I would wager they all get heat colored on a few passes but that color gets removed on the next pass.

There was no heat color evidence on the burnt tip on this folder that I picked up at Blade Show. But I know a mushy edge when I see one and that tip was particularly soft.

 

[AusLoX]

So apparently we cut down bird’s houses and then make birdhouses.

 

[clinton1]

 

[SharpBits]

You can be the judge as to whether or not you want to trust the carpenter building your house to make all of his cuts to length by eye, or maybe hire someone that uses a ruler to measure length.

Good analogy.

 

[oldmanwilly]

I’m not sure how to answer this, but I was fool enough to open this can of worms, so perhaps I’ll just keep stepping into it.

Is it possible? Sure, I guess. I’ve owned plenty of knives that were done in this fashion, and even made some, that ‘worked fine’. I guess if that’s your target, this isn’t a big deal. But, I’m guessing that if you’re a CPK enthusiast, it’s likely because you have higher expectations.

None of this is to say it can’t be done, however I’ve personally experienced enough anecdotal (and sometimes evidential) examples to make me recognize that there’s just as much misguided self-confidence involved in ‘mastery’ as there might be genuine skill and understanding. For example, many moons ago I attended a world-reknowned bladesmithing event, where over seventy of us were there to learn and share, and more than a few were ‘master smiths’. During one of the demonstrations, the bladesmith demoing (using a forge with a thermocouple in it to gauge temp) brought the blade to what sure appeared to be ‘the right’ temp to quench at and asked the crowd what the blade temp was. Not one of them guessed within 150°.

To further exemplify this, Larrin did an article on heat treating 52100, and a bladesmith asked if he could participate by providing some test coupons he had made. Here’s a screen shot of the results as shown in the article.

For twenty years I’ve listened to all of this get hashed and rehashed, and really what it boils down to -for me- is whether or not someone wants to let their ego get in the way, or whether or not they have an interest in eliminating variables so they can optimize performance. You can be the judge as to whether or not you want to trust the carpenter building your house to make all of his cuts to length by eye, or maybe hire someone that uses a ruler to measure length.

Too long, didn't read. I guess I'll just keep it simple and only buy CPK now.

Jokes aside, thank you for the explanation.

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

#CPKthings

 

[Nathan the Machinist]

General announcement:

On October 26th CPK will be hosting a outlaw cut at the compound and there will be a small knife show as well. I'll grill up some steaks.

We're not going to have a hayride, we're going to have a hey! ride

(Alcohol abuse, irresponsible discharge of firearms, and forklift jousting is optional)

 

[bluemax_1]

There are loads and loads of examples of tests demonstrating that even ‘the ancient masters’ didn’t have the control needed to nail this. What was once the pinnacle of advancement and technology is today’s ’also-ran’.

Nate’s pretty big on pointing this out - does anyone truly believe that Musashi would elect to use nihonto from 700 years ago today, if he had access to a sword made by CPK or Dan Keffeler? I think it’s more than fair to present the parallel of using a chariot for battle versus an F35. We haven’t sat still in our development.

…and bluemax_1, I know you know all this, I’m just quoting you because it was the obvious segue.

A post very much worth quoting.

There's a world of a difference between "good enough" a few centuries ago, vs literally cutting edge heat treats that Nate's done all his research on.

For folks who may have missed a couple of the posts I made on swords, here's a basic summary;

Researchers and folks studying historical weapons have done actual testing on museum pieces, to document various aspects. One of those, was the hardness, and heat treat consistency. What all the testing showed, was that the consistency of historical pieces simply isn't very good.

Not only did the edge hardnesses range widely, sometimes as low as in the 40s hRc, to the lower to kid 50s hRc more common in Western swords, they also tested the variance in individual swords, measuring the edge hardness every 5cm down the edges, and found variability pretty common there as well (eg. Swords would show softer edge sections, and harder edge sections along the edge).

And as for historical Nihonto/katana/tachi; While most enthusiasts/fans have heard of the differential hardness, with a softer spine for shock abso6,and a harder edge for edge retention and cutting, most historical Nihonto have edge hardnesses in the mid to high 50s hRc. 60 hRc is not very common from all the Japanese swords tested.

CPK's K18 and K20 are 60.5 hRc. They're already harder than historical (and modern reproduction) shinken, but what REALLY blew my mind, was the video of the K18 flex test (and later, the same test with a K20), bending them that far, and the sword returning to true. Nihonto would fail that test. The Western style swords that can pass flex tests that extreme, are generally in the low 50s hRc. Until the K18 video, I had no idea that D3V could do that.

Another datapoint is the hullabaloo back when Howard Clark first developed his L6 Bainite katanas. They were dubbed the "indestructible katana', and there used to be video of one of them bashing through cinder blocks (another test that traditionally made Nihonto/shinken would fail at), but as more of them made it into the hands of actual practitioners of Japanese sword arts, one of the comments that began popping up, was that while the toughness was off the charts vs normal katana, the edge holding when used for tameshigiri, was subpar.

That's where CPK's D3V blows away all contenders. Edge holding WITH incredible toughness AND consistency. Can't remember which bladesmith stated something like, "These are the best swords being made, in the world", but it wasn't hyperbole.

*** And the pair of K20 I received from the preorder weigh within a fraction of an ounce to each other.

 

[Blues]

I used to party with Howard Clark and Al Dippold. (Don't ask...LOL. There were a few other outlaws who were part of that crew, including Bud Nealy.)

 

[Pàdruig]

General announcement:

On October 26th CPK will be hosting a outlaw cut at the compound and there will be a small knife show as well. I'll grill up some steaks.

We're not going to have a hayride, we're going to have a hey! ride

(Alcohol abuse, irresponsible discharge of firearms, and forklift jousting is optional)

I am going to start scheming with my brother (who is in some suburb of Raleigh) and see if I can make the trek happen this year.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

Really, the greatest issue when discussing this sort of thing is that the facts come up abruptly against the belief system. Once something has entered into the arena of conviction, it’s really easy for it to become dangerous. People want to believe that the master is just that - a master. Many NEED to believe it.

Once upon a time I made the fool mistake of confronting a master smith because he publicly criticized an alloy which, using ‘his methods’, failed to harden properly, because he didn’t bother to familiarize himself with the steel’s proscribed data sheet heat treat process. His email reply to me was something I’ll never forget, as it PERFECTLY encapsulated the point I was trying to make.

It’s not forty years but forty-six I’ve been making knives and using mostly back yard heat treating methods. Such methods were adequate to get me through a successful career and along the way pass the ABS Journeyman and MS tests. I’ll put my backyard heat treated test knives through any fair comparison test with whomever and whenever it comes up.

If digital controls and special quench oils were the only way to get good results I doubt that the US could have beat the British in the Revolutionary War. How about the knives that lasted Lewis and Clark through their two-year adventure? Do you know how the blades were heat treated that helped the US win WW1?


I took this opportunity to point out to him that Lewis and Clark’s expedition had to contend with syphilis, and their treatment for such was mercury, both in pill form as well as ointment. I didn’t bother bringing up French sponsorship during our country’s youthful endeavors. None of these things would have impacted his position, in his mind.

With that opening sentence, all I heard was ‘Don’t tell me what I don’t know, I’ve been doing this wrong for forty-six years!!!’

It’s probably the biggest reason why I avoid these conversations, yet here I am…


<<sigh>>




(Now I’m waiting for Richard338 to pop up and say ‘was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor?’ )

 

[Pàdruig]

If digital controls and special quench oils were the only way to get good results I doubt that the US could have beat the British in the Revolutionary War. How about the knives that lasted Lewis and Clark through their two-year adventure? Do you know how the blades were heat treated that helped the US win WW1?

That's such a terrible argument. It flies a bit in the face of another shitty argument where bad living historians will say, "Well, if they would have had access to this in those days, they would have used it", in defense of using more modern accoutrements in their historical display.

Lewis & Clark in today's world would mean they would be using cutting edge tech, tools, and gear. Well funded and outfitted, with the best that money could buy. They wouldn't be using cheap carbon steel being forged in someone's back yard. Intellectually dishonest arguments irritate me.

 

[Matthew Gregory]

In his defense, an uppity punk kid confronted him in what was probably a bit of an embarrassing circumstance, as he had years and years of experience and his methods simply didn’t work. I’m sure he was a really good guy, and if I could do it all over again, I’d handle it differently.

We all get wrapped up in our own bullshit, and it’s really easy to get lost in your own perspective.


It doesn’t change the fact that remembering that we don’t have all the answers is a crucial aspect of learning. The moment I’m convinced I’m right, I can almost guarantee I’ve got it wrong.

 

[carnifex knifeworks]

In his defense, an uppity punk kid confronted him in what was probably a bit of an embarrassing circumstance, as he had years and years of experience and his methods simply didn’t work. I’m sure he was a really good guy, and if I could do it all over again, I’d handle it differently.

We all get wrapped up in our own bullshit, and it’s really easy to get lost in your own perspective.


It doesn’t change the fact that remembering that we don’t have all the answers is a crucial aspect of learning. The moment I’m convinced I’m right, I can almost guarantee I’ve got it wrong.

This is why you shouldn't dismiss ideas from someone purely because of their age. If a punk kid's argument was "in my two or 3 years of experience" then the master smith with 46 years would have an argument. Since the argument was "your results were bad because of xyz, which can be tested and proven" the argument of "I've been doing it this long" is stubborn and arrogant. Cognitive dissonance is a real thing. Ego holds lots of people back from advancing.

Medford made a similar argument when people complained about the hrc on his magnacut blades. Not sure if that's still the case or not though. That kind of thing really makes me shy away from purchasing their products. I appreciate businesses that really try to improve and I try to support them when I can.

 

[Maxaem]

Well, it was a good idea, then, wasn’t it….




Fight the good fight, my friend.

I’m a big fan of altruism, but only after you’ve raked in heaps of money. Then you start a grant so poor kids can get an education or learn a skilled trade so they can escape poverty by overcharging the masses for stupid old handle material.





He’s not made of money because he’s not charging enough. All of you REALLY need to be thankful that he’s doesn’t ever listen to me.


I’d have @Jo the Machinist struggling to decide which diamond studded fur to wear to shop at Walmart, if the pricing was left to me.

I am quite thankful you haven’t convinced them! It gives me a chance to own on of those amazing knives…

Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have to return to my training regimen of finger curls and reaction time reps

 

[Murphjd25]

What’s a Juneberry? This Red Bull is pretty good.

 

[trevitrace]

Serviceberry is another name.