Ranking Chinese manufacturers?

[jginnane]

This past weekend I scanned aliexpress.com to see what was available in the way of clones for the ZT 0888, ZT 0777, and the ZT 0454. It appears the Chinese are not yet offering composite blades, and perhaps not carbon fiber scales, either. As has been mentioned in this thread, you can't be sure of the quality of the steel used, even when labeled. Offering prices ranged roughly $70-150 for knives where authentic, limited edition US-made products run $700-1300 in the aftermarket.

For me, the subject is now over since I acquired an 0454 and an 0888 (Max) yesterday via bladeforums. The clones are a little pricey to be EDC while I keep the good ones home in my safe, and buying clones would be basically redundant.

An exception could be made if you could get good Chinese steel, use it and sharpen constantly, etc., like a real tool. However it seems a lot of the actual knifework business here consists of cutting up cardboard boxes and practice-shaving arm patches.

 

[austonh]

Carson are said to be excellent, but too pricey for my taste. I own 3 Reate and they are excellent, I've handles several Kizer as well.
1. Carson & Reate
2. Kizer & District 9
3. Sanrenmu & Spyderco & Kershaw (Chinese offerings)

 

[PURPLEDC]

This past weekend I scanned aliexpress.com to see what was available in the way of clones for the ZT 0888, ZT 0777, and the ZT 0454. It appears the Chinese are not yet offering composite blades, and perhaps not carbon fiber scales, either. As has been mentioned in this thread, you can't be sure of the quality of the steel used, even when labeled. Offering prices ranged roughly $70-150 for knives where authentic, limited edition US-made products run $700-1300 in the aftermarket.

For me, the subject is now over since I acquired an 0454 and an 0888 (Max) yesterday via bladeforums. The clones are a little pricey to be EDC while I keep the good ones home in my safe, and buying clones would be basically redundant.

An exception could be made if you could get good Chinese steel, use it and sharpen constantly, etc., like a real tool. However it seems a lot of the actual knifework business here consists of cutting up cardboard boxes and practice-shaving arm patches.

They have and do use carbon fiber over there. I havent done any strength tests with it to see if it is as high quality as stuff sourced here but I can tell you this, the stuff is completely void free to the naked eye. I thought maybe they were skimming voids with epoxy or a liquid resin to fill them in but they dont as I have sanded some scaled thinner and I have not found a visible defects. And while I have not done a strength test I havent broken a knife either. Granted I dont be the hell out of my knives but they do what a knife should do and that cut.

 

[jginnane]

...And while I have not done a strength test I havent broken a knife either. Granted I dont be the hell out of my knives but they do what a knife should do and that cut.

Appreciate the info about carbon fiber. Shouldn't be that hard an issue, really, since it's in the general category of using fiberglass or other resin-coated products. I see the Chinese mill titanium interchangeably between blades and scales.

The composite blade issue is the big differentiation (aka "technology") from American manufacturers. Here I would defer to experts, since a good portion of what I've seen in USA-sourced blades is primarily cosmetic, like Damascus steel.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Appreciate the info about carbon fiber. Shouldn't be that hard an issue, really, since it's in the general category of using fiberglass or other resin-coated products. I see the Chinese mill titanium interchangeably between blades and scales.

The composite blade issue is the big differentiation (aka "technology") from American manufacturers. Here I would defer to experts, since a good portion of what I've seen in USA-sourced blades is primarily cosmetic, like Damascus steel.

To be honest I dont know so much whether they lack that technology or if its more of a lack of return on the investment. While composote blades is interesting from a "wow look at that" standpoint there is relatively 0 benefit to the user besides the cool factor. Originally It was stated that composite blade technology was developed as a cost savings measure. A way to offer premium steel at lesser price. Unfortunately there have been what I consider serious drawbacks. Whethers its from the brazing not being able to handle optimum heat treating temps to the fact that the etching process has proven to be difficult. Not to mention that many of the steel types they were hoping to utilize in the process have proved to be quite difficult to utilize. So difficult many projects it has been completely abandoned in favor of a solid blade. And lets face it if composite blades have been reduced to utilizing D2 only then now we are talking a purely cosmetic feature. Pairing damascus with a premium steel or even pairing another premium steel with sandvik was a neat idea. But D2 is not really what most consider "premium" It performs great and thats no issue but its not an expensive steel at which point to me the composite blade really is more trouble and additional costs. Some may feel different. But honestly I dont see the appeal with what has become. And its entirely possible that china has decided that it wouldnt be a profitable decision which I personally feel is the main motivation in what they do.

 

[A. G. Russell]

several years ago I was guided by a Chinese speaking member of this forum to several hand makers of knives and severeal knife forums in China. I have lost all of those except this one forum. http://www.knifriend.com/portal.php I hope that this is helpful to those looking for a knife culture in modern China.

all the best,

A. G.

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

From the Reate Knife website: Reate is a newly built brand for high quality knives. The founder is a long-term knife enthusiast. With a background of mechanical design and manufacturing major, he seeks detailed perfection for the design and making the knives. Reate is capable of manufacturing high quality knives with professional production equipments including CNC high speed engraving machine, milling, CNC grinding and low temperature tempering furnace.

We buy steel from American, Germany and Japan. Commonly used steels are: Bohler-M390,S35VN, S30V, S90V, VG10, RWL34, and Damascus. Handle material we use includes: titanium 6al4v, carbon fiber, G10, copper, aluminum, wood and various kinds of natural material.

We design and make our own knives. We believe good quality and innovation is the key to development. We will stick to this philosophy by continuously producing high quality knives with variety of innovative designs. We also accept orders for customized knives. We commit ourselves to provide the best quality knives and perfect customized service.


It appears that they only make 5 folding knives: http://www.reateknives.com/products.asp

In my humble opinion, China is not even on the map when it comes to anything to do with knives. The 'quality' of the product is irrelevant to me.

It all comes down to your history as a nation with the product, and China's history with knife production is not in any way based around a love for edged tools as it is with what they do with everything, no innovation, just manufacture using dirt cheap labor and materials.

America has always had a very real infatuation with knives, as has Japan, and many parts of Europe and Africa.

When you have a long history of a real passion for something, you tend to innovate, lead in design and continue to evolve the thing you love (see knife makers in the above mentioned countries) I own knives from American, South African, and European, knives with as much sole authorship as I can, or I buy nothing.

The point of all this rambling (sorry) point me in the direction of one Chinese knife maker that innovates and pushes the industry forward. You can't. It (he) doesn't exist. What you have in China is tweaked copy's of others designs or out right counterfeits.
The premise is not to do anything but mass manufacture for as cheap as possible, and at this point, that is all it is.

As for Reate and Kizer. What can I say, the quality may be there, but there is zero soul..... I have no interest in buying something like that. If I was going to buy a cheap knife that contained a lot of Chinese parts, there are better options for the kind of money the above mentioned companies are asking for their 'knives'...

 

[Golden Gate Bridge]

It looks like the Carson company makes 4-5 different knives and some tactical pens. I don't like the design of their website. It doesn't show clearly what they are selling. Reminds me of a shooting gallery at a fair, everything is moving and you have to hit it to score.
http://www.carsonlab.com/#!/page_products

 

[Neo]

Thank you Purpledc for your comprehensive post

We are discussing mostly folders but I also have a fixed District 9 knife in DC53 which seems to have a very good heat treat.
Another is some sort of bowie from L.W
It has a nice handle material

After I bought it, I found a video about it: http://www.56.com/u59/v_OTYyNjQ3NDQ.html#fromoutpvid=OTYyNjQ3NDQ

 

[PURPLEDC]

Thank you Purpledc for your comprehensive post

Your welcome. To be honest I wasnt even going to comment. I am not well liked in this community for my lack of disdain for chinese knife making. With that said I have to be very very careful in how I choose my words when describing these products.

 

[gibmoniplz]

Dicoria and Kevin John appear to be capable of making quality knives of their own design (they do have a few), but they don't seem to have much incentive to produce them because they can just earn more with ZT and Sebenza knockoffs. They could go the path of legitimacy, but that's doubtful when there's a huge demand for knock-offs. I would like to get a hold of Dicoria's "Killer Whale" someday. Have no interest in A DAI or Wild Boar.

Those aside, I have had a pleasing experience with my Kizer, bar a screw that was a bit too tight and got stripped. I would still buy another one. Also planning on getting a Reate. Another chinese brand to look out for is Stedemon, they seem to be fairly new however.

Can't speak much of the lower-priced, budget ones, there's two still in transit that should get delivered within a month or two.

 

[Alpha Knife Supply]

The fact that most collectors in the United States are not aware of the knife collector market in China does not mean it does not exist.

There is a buyer here in the country who buys materials for Chinese custom knifemakers. The buyer only buys the best materials, i.e, S110V, S90V, Elmax, M390, damascus, Timascus™, etc. The blade steels are shipped directly to heat treaters who heat treat the billets and then ship them to China. The amount spent by the buyer is over six figures. I've never seen any of the materials appear on-line or at shows.

I also know custom knifemakers around the world who send custom knives to collectors in China.

China has almost 2.4 million millionaires. Is there a chance that a small fraction would be interested in custom knives?

Chuck

 

[austonh]

The fact that most collectors in the United States are not aware of the knife collector market in China does not mean it does not exist.

There is a buyer here in the country who buys materials for Chinese custom knifemakers. The buyer only buys the best materials, i.e, S110V, S90V, Elmax, M390, damascus, Timascus™, etc. The blade steels are shipped directly to heat treaters who heat treat the billets and then ship them to China. The amount spent by the buyer is over six figures. I've never seen any of the materials appear on-line or at shows.

I also know custom knifemakers around the world who send custom knives to collectors in China.

China has almost 2.4 million millionaires. Is there a chance that a small fraction would be interested in custom knives?

Chuck

Well said Chuck.

 

[SaintlyBrees]

I love my Kizer knives, FWIW.

Me too. I've got three and am very pleased with all of them. Excellent quality and decent pricing.

I can't speak to any of the other brands, although I have held and used (for a short time) a Reate and was impressed with it as well.

 

[citovsky]

i have several Reates and numerous Kizers. Also D9 Storms (for bgknives made by Reate) and several MGs, and Wild Boars (not clones) and one original Kevin John (not clone) fro CKF in Russia. Rates are outstanding close to midgets and they are improving. Kissers have nice designs and are extremely smooth, just a notch below Reate in some models but some Kizers are more high-end. All, Kizers, however, are fun and pleasure to handle. D9 storm (bgknives) almost the same as Reate D9 but limited editions and more "tactical" in appearance. My only original Kevin (Daboia) is outstanding. Wild Boar shows somewhat less attention to details but still very solid knives. MGs are that the bottom of my list but still well above similarly priced "mainstream" production knives. In short, it seems to me that virtually all chinese-made original designs using high quality materials and costing between $100-400 will not disappoint.

 

[wolfmann601]

FWIW I also have an opinion about worms but I've never eaten any.

Well, I have eaten worms and frankly they taste just like.......................................worms!!!

Reate looks like decent quality.

 

[MMans0311]

Remember VCRs from the 80's? Matsushita Electric made over 85% of the VHS units on the market. Didn't matter what name was on the outside, inside they were all the same.

Wouldn't surprise me if it was just one or two companies making all the counterfeits.

Sony guts? (Scrappy Coco)