Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

But then not so super steels do better banging around? If so is that normal or would a differently treated super steel do better in the kitchen?

Differently heat treated super steel would definitely have more stable edge, more refined grain structure, less retained austenite if any, balanced amount of carbides for its chemical composition.
That's not to say we could make a chopper out of s110v or a super skinner out of 3v though.
My point is to test the hardness of a knife or base on the one published by manufacturer And then if I.e. We have an Elmax blade @59 quit with the purchase and save the money they ask for a custom heat treated properly.
If you read all of my posts here and the one above linked you'll find my approach well documented and unbiased.
 
I apologize if you thought that of my post. I was just throwing my experience in the mix, not trying to discount anybody else's experience.
Oh, I'm not upset, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not criticizing the cutting ability of my S110V knives. They cut like the dickens but they seem a bit too shock sensitive for my kitchen use.
Since this is a rope cutting abrasion resistance measuring thread I want to try to stay on topic. My point was that in Jim's testing PSF27 seems to have done about what you'd expect and that I'm happy with it. I'm using the PSF27 mule as my daily cardboard cutter since it seems to be less damage prone than the S110V mule that I had been using previously. That observation is not meant to take anything away from S110V, or Spyderco, or Jim's testing. It probably says more about my lack of skill as a knife user than anything else. Go in peace! :)
 
But then not so super steels do better banging around? If so is that normal or would a differently treated super steel do better in the kitchen?

Dunno about anyone else but I use S110V everyday in the kitchen @ 65 HRC and .004" behind the edge with 10 DPS edge geometry and I might have to touch it up every 8 Months .....
 
Oh, I'm not upset, I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not criticizing the cutting ability of my S110V knives. They cut like the dickens but they seem a bit too shock sensitive for my kitchen use.
Since this is a rope cutting abrasion resistance measuring thread I want to try to stay on topic. My point was that in Jim's testing PSF27 seems to have done about what you'd expect and that I'm happy with it. I'm using the PSF27 mule as my daily cardboard cutter since it seems to be less damage prone than the S110V mule that I had been using previously. That observation is not meant to take anything away from S110V, or Spyderco, or Jim's testing. It probably says more about my lack of skill as a knife user than anything else. Go in peace! :)


A lot depends on final hardness and there is a big difference between the S110V MT and the S110V Manix 2, they are 60 and 62 respectively....

So there will be a difference in performance, the same as with any of the HV steels going from the lower RC ranges to the higher ones, the lower ones increase toughness so the edge will roll and not chip out as easy. That also lowers the compression strength so the edge will blunt sooner than with the higher ranges, so that's a trade off.

To get one thing one must give up something else.

However with the S110V MT if they are experiencing flattening from a cutting board going with either an 18 DPS edge geometry or a small 20 DPS micro bevel, either should solve the issue.....

The Manix 2 shouldn't see those things at 62 however....
 
Ah, OK. I wouldn't hearing more about it. Maybe even a photo? :)

It's OLD and beat up, like a paring knife size..... About a 4" blade.....

I have had it like 4 years.... Only use it in the kitchen....
 
I guess that means no images of it then? :( :p

It's not photo worthy... LOL :D

Or I would have posted it a long time ago, but never did......

If I get another one made sometime in S110V I will post that one...
 
A lot depends on final hardness and there is a big difference between the S110V MT and the S110V Manix 2, they are 60 and 62 respectively....

So there will be a difference in performance, the same as with any of the HV steels going from the lower RC ranges to the higher ones, the lower ones increase toughness so the edge will roll and not chip out as easy. That also lowers the compression strength so the edge will blunt sooner than with the higher ranges, so that's a trade off.

To get one thing one must give up something else.

However with the S110V MT if they are experiencing flattening from a cutting board going with either an 18 DPS edge geometry or a small 20 DPS micro bevel, either should solve the issue.....

The Manix 2 shouldn't see those things at 62 however....

Well said Ankie.
MT at 60will have far more Retained Austenite than Manix at 62, so I would definitely recommend doing a convex edge.
By Crucible datasheet S110V at 63 has more than double the edge holding than at 60, so to speak.

Lets analyse its chemical composition:
Carbon 2.8%
Chromium 15.25%
Vanadium 9.0%
Niobium (Columbium) 3.5%
Molybdenum 2.25%
Cobalt 2.50%
One thing that it's rarely mentioned about Cobalt about its role in stainless steels, is that it raises Ms temperature. I.e.: Martensite starts forming at higher temperature than without Cobalt. This is quite important in Supersteels as allows for a less steep quenching rate and thus less risk of breaking, warping etc. It is there in a reasonable amount. Not too much not too low. So we can say that quenching S110V can be reasonable easy for such an highly alloyed steel. In fact Datasheet says "cool at a minimum cooling rate of 250°F/min (140°C/min) to below 1000°F (540°C)." which for such an highly alloyed steel is a very forgiving measure.

HT it is just like the one I mentioned for M390 in my post 1180°C/540°C will make the best wear resistance combination. Datasheet says "When tempering at or below
750°F (400°C), a freezing treatment may be used between the first and second tempers to reduce retained austenite and maximize hardness. Freezing treatments should always be followed by at least one temper."
. So it is NOT mandatory according Crucible, go figure. But on the other hand it is not mentioned for 540°C tempering, which confirms my statements.

S90V has 14%Cr and S110V has 15.25%. S90V has 2.3%C and 1%Moly. When properly HTd S90V will score 10%Cr7C3 carbides and 9%VC carbides.
S110V will have 0.5% more C, 1.25% more Cr, 3.5% more Niobium,
Datasheet says "CPM S110V features the same high vanadium content as CPM S90V, plus the added contribution of 3.5% niobium, resulting in 25% greater volume of wear resistant
carbides, including 50% more of the wear resistant MC type."
. So 19*1,25=23.75% carbides in volume of which 13.5% would be VC+NbC carbides and 10.25% Cr7C3 carbides.
But it is NOT mentioned the Aust. temperature. So please see below Corrosion resistance.

Crucible then mention the typical working hardness as being between 58-61HRC !!!! This is IMHO an error, along with not stating deep cryo at low temp tempering as mandatory.
The result has been shown by edge rolling above.

One question remains: Cpm S110V is undoubtedly more pitting resistant than S90V. Why?
Reference being made to CORROSION RESISTANT NITROGEN ALLOYED STEELS WITH HIGH HARDNESS, Odd Sandberg and Alf Sandberg
"Cr in solid solution and the PRE number are measures to indicate the resistance to general and pitting corrosion, respectively, where a high PRE number indicates a higher pitting corrosion resistance.
The PRE number is the sum in weight percent of the following elements in solid solution Cr+3,3Mo+16N."

The following PRE numbers refer to the steel in the hardened+quenched condition.
S90V: 1180°C Cr in solid solution 11,4 PRE 14 (this would mean that Moly in solid solution would be 0.72%)
So, assuming same autenit. conditions we should have a 5.31818 contribute from Moly to PRE number in S110V (1.477272 Moly in solid solution). 11.4(slightly more than)+5.3 would make a 16.7 PRE value. Stain resistance would be thus on par with S90V but pitting resistance would be higher, actually the second highest high alloyed non Nitrogen based martensitic stainless steels, after AISI 618 class steels and roughly on par with 440B.
Remark: there wouldn't be Moly carbides, given the high presence of Cr, V and Nb.

Toughness: S110V contains 32.5% alloying elements against 24% of S90V, which is quite a difference. So there is a toll to pay and this is toughness. Honestly speaking I don't expect it to trespass 30J, yet mine it is a guess..
On the other hand if you exploit SH you'll see quite a jump in hardness, from roughly 61at 260°C to 63.5 at 525°C.
This means three important things:
1)little RA if any at all.
2)C enough to reach such hardness levels
3)If such carbon amount is available there will be no Cr carbide precipitation, yet, instead, there should actually be more Cr in solid solution.

NOTE: at high temps austenitizing the hardness may decrease as the presence of high concentration of C and carbide forming elements in austenite will depress the Mf temperature to below zero (that's why I recommend either deep cryo or SH).

:)
 
Crucible then mention the typical working hardness as being between 58-61HRC !!!! This is IMHO an error, along with not stating deep cryo at low temp tempering as mandatory.
The result has been shown by edge rolling above.


S110V is a tool steel and it's used in the plastics industry so that range is spot on for what it was developed for and:

• Screw elements, barrels and barrel liners for
compounding machines
• Industrial knives, slitters and circular cutters
• Rolls and wear components for food and chemical
processing applications

So that range provides the best balance of corrosion Resistance and toughness for those applications....

Now, start talking about knife blades that's a different world as the typical range would be 60-63 RC depending on the intended use of the knife, geometry etc.
 
Well that's right Ankie, yet they could have added "For knife blades the recommended hardness is...."
 
Last edited:
Well that's right Ankie, yet they could have added "For knife blades the recommended hardness is...."

People have to realize those data sheets are ment to reference the original applications for which the steels were developed....

NOT for knife blades....... So looking at the data sheets doesn't tell the whole story....
 
That's the very reason I'm taking my time to read them properly after attending a high class of Metallurgy. But more and more steel makers like BU and Carpenter explicitly mention "knife usage" in their ds.
Anyway we have means to pinpoint the HTs.
 
That's the very reason I'm taking my time to read them properly after attending a high class of Metallurgy. But more and more steel makers like BU and Carpenter explicitly mention "knife usage" in their ds.
Anyway we have means to pinpoint the HTs.

Yes they do for the steels that are recommended for knife usage.

Crucible has a Steels for knife makers PDF out and more information can be had from them directly and or from Niagara Specialty Metals.
 
A lot depends on final hardness and there is a big difference between the S110V MT and the S110V Manix 2, they are 60 and 62 respectively....

So there will be a difference in performance, the same as with any of the HV steels going from the lower RC ranges to the higher ones, the lower ones increase toughness so the edge will roll and not chip out as easy. That also lowers the compression strength so the edge will blunt sooner than with the higher ranges, so that's a trade off.

To get one thing one must give up something else.

However with the S110V MT if they are experiencing flattening from a cutting board going with either an 18 DPS edge geometry or a small 20 DPS micro bevel, either should solve the issue.....

The Manix 2 shouldn't see those things at 62 however....
I'll take the Manix 2 home and try it in the kitchen for a while then. Thanks!
 
MR. Ankerson, Have you ever tested Laminated VG-10 as found on a Falkniven F1? Curious to hear if it's better than normal VG-10.
 
Back
Top