Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Jim's a man of few words. ;) What he means is is that in this test, which tests cutting, you're testing the VG-10 edge whether or not it's laminated. There may be benefits or detriments for other purposes, but not when just comparing edge retention.
 
JNewell said:
Jim's a man of few words. ;) What he means is is that in this test, which tests cutting, you're testing the VG-10 edge whether or not it's laminated. There may be benefits or detriments for other purposes, but not when just comparing edge retention.
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Thanks, I understand. I was sort of hoping one of those Metallurgists that seem to hang out in this thread might know something about it and maybe say something. :)
 
Ballenxj said:
Thanks, I understand. I was sort of hoping one of those Metallurgists that seem to hang out in this thread might know something about it and maybe say something. :)
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Oh, you should have said so :). They (whoever said its better) probably means it's more bendable and less prone to gross failure. Soft laminate sides will allow a blade to bend easier, but won't break. Laminating it won't have anything to do with edge retention, or much of anything else once you get past the lamination lines.
 
me2 said:
Oh, you should have said so :). They (whoever said its better) probably means it's more bendable and less prone to gross failure. Soft laminate sides will allow a blade to bend easier, but won't break. Laminating it won't have anything to do with edge retention, or much of anything else once you get past the lamination lines.
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Yes - perhaps having the laminate there might prompt the maker to run the VG-10 core a little harder or something along those lines, but knarfeng tested a Native III at 59 HRC and Fallkniven lists their F1 at 59 HRC as well, so I doubt it:

http://www.bladeforums.com/forums/showthread.php/455022-Rockwell-hardness-of-Native-III-VG10

http://www.fallkniven.com/en/shop/details/370/10/military-knives/f1l
 
me2 said:
Oh, you should have said so :). They (whoever said its better) probably means it's more bendable and less prone to gross failure. Soft laminate sides will allow a blade to bend easier, but won't break. Laminating it won't have anything to do with edge retention, or much of anything else once you get past the lamination lines.
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Thanks. :)
 
Looking at the difference between the S110V Manix before and after the regrind, I'm wondering how much of the difference between the two Cruwear tests could be attributed to geometry and how much to heat treat. I think it would be interesting to test a Cruwear Military that was reground to .005" behind the edge and see what kind of difference one would see compared to the original.



Forgive me if this has been discussed already. I've been away for a minute and the 2,000+ posts in this epic thread are a lot to wade through.
 
senorsquare said:
Looking at the difference between the S110V Manix before and after the regrind, I'm wondering how much of the difference between the two Cruwear tests could be attributed to geometry and how much to heat treat. I think it would be interesting to test a Cruwear Military that was reground to .005" behind the edge and see what kind of difference one would see compared to the original.



Forgive me if this has been discussed already. I've been away for a minute and the 2,000+ posts in this epic thread are a lot to wade through.
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It would make a difference, how much I couldn't say because I don't know what the finial hardness was on the Military.

Now I do have another Custom in CPM 10V coming soon that will be .005" behind the edge so people can compare that to the other ones at .020".
 
Theres a guy on yoh tube, Ruslan Kiyasov. Hes the Russian equivalent of you Jim, does a lot of tests, test different steels and whats important, hevknows a thing or 2 about sharpening. He had a Phil Wilson in cpm 10v and he got to 1600 cuts before he couldn't cut anymore because his arm was tired. He tested the knife and it cut printer paper like nothing happened almost. You should chech out his video/channel, a lit of his vudeis have subtitles now I think. Im anxious to see what results you get but I feel bad for you cuz 10v is a beast by itself, give it a custom heat treat and a geometry suited for cutting and who kniws wherd it will end up. Thank you fir all your tests and im excited to see wgat cones of that knife.
 
d00mtr33 said:
Theres a guy on yoh tube, Ruslan Kiyasov. Hes the Russian equivalent of you Jim, does a lot of tests, test different steels and whats important, hevknows a thing or 2 about sharpening. He had a Phil Wilson in cpm 10v and he got to 1600 cuts before he couldn't cut anymore because his arm was tired. He tested the knife and it cut printer paper like nothing happened almost. You should chech out his video/channel, a lit of his vudeis have subtitles now I think. Im anxious to see what results you get but I feel bad for you cuz 10v is a beast by itself, give it a custom heat treat and a geometry suited for cutting and who kniws wherd it will end up. Thank you fir all your tests and im excited to see wgat cones of that knife.
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That doesn't surprise me, I have one of his here in K294 that did 1800.... 64 HRC, 10 DPS and .010" behind the edge.
 
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Im pretty sure his was at 15 dps. He cuts jute rope instead on manilla to test overall edge holding and then uses a thinner manilla rope to test the apex of the knife, stopping every 10 cuts and cuttinf rope to check for deformation. One thing I find surprising is how "bad" cts xhp dud in the 400 grit test. I would've thought it would surpass s30v because in my testing and in Ruslans videis it had much better wear resistance than s30v. Do you think xhp doesn't like a coarse finish, since in the 6k test it was a group or 2 higher than s30? Also have you gad a chance to test nitrobe 77? I haveca knife coming in tomorrow with that steel and im really excited to see it perform.
 
d00mtr33 said:
Im pretty sure his was at 15 dps. He cuts jute rope instead on manilla to test overall edge holding and then uses a thinner manilla rope to test the apex of the knife, stopping every 10 cuts and cuttinf rope to check for deformation. One thing I find surprising is how "bad" cts xhp dud in the 400 grit test. I would've thought it would surpass s30v because in my testing and in Ruslans videis it had much better wear resistance than s30v. Do you think xhp doesn't like a coarse finish, since in the 6k test it was a group or 2 higher than s30?
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I can offer a reason for CTS-XHP performance in 400grit finishing rankings.
Here the type of carbides really counts given that the HRC value ensures good edge stability and penetration resistance.
Best performances belong to steels having MC carbides (Vanadium and also Niobium for S110V) and M2C Wolframium based carbides (CPM-M4) which are remarkably harder than Cr carbides (either M23C6 or M7C3).
CTS-HXP @60.5 has only M7C3 Cr carbides and maybe even a small amount of M23C6 (softer) Cr ones. But it can reach 64HRC with 62 being a safe zone, so at 60.5 CTS-XHP is not delivering his own optimal edge stability as well.
S30V at 60 is pretty close to its max working hardness (62) and I know only one production maker that routinely trespass 60: Fantoni, from Maniago, Italy.

Elmax Mule at 58.5 does even worse than CTS_XHP, because edge stability will be a PITA. I've one :(

EDIT as of 2014-26-10
I left behind ZDP-189 @65 scores when sharpened at 400 grit.
With its insanely high C and Cr content it will produce M23C6 and M7C3 carbides at recommended HT temps). A LOT of them, probably ca 25% in volume. The recommended HT temps are fairly low, to minimize retained austenite content that would be VERY HIGH otherwise. Moly content (to help air hardening and adding some more pitting resistance) would be roughly the same as N690, W content the same as M390 (to help shifting to the right the bainite nose) and a tinsie V to help refining grain size. The point is that @65 is very close to its max capabilities AND will have even less toughness than S110V, so to speak. And still it would not deliver as much an edge holding as an M390/CTS-204P decently heat treated.
 
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daberti said:
I can offer a reason for CTS-XHP performance in 400grit finishing rankings.
Here the type of carbides really counts given that the HRC value ensures good edge stability and penetration resistance.
Best performances belong to steels having MC carbides (Vanadium and also Niobium for S110V) and M2C Wolframium based carbides (CPM-M4) which are remarkably harder than Cr carbides (either M23C6 or M7C3).
CTS-HXP @60.5 has only M7C3 Cr carbides and maybe even a small amount of M23C6 (softer) Cr ones. But it can reach 64HRC with 62 being a safe zone, so at 60.5 CTS-XHP is not delivering his own optimal edge stability as well.
S30V at 60 is pretty close to its max working hardness (62) and I know only one production maker that routinely trespass 60: Fantoni, from Maniago, Italy.

Elmax Mule at 58.5 does even worse than CTS_XHP, because edge stability will be a PITA. I've one :(
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I don't think people quite understand how much of an impact being at or near optimal hardness can make in performance.

That's one of the main reasons why I stated adding the customs into the list in the coarse edge section introducing both thin blade geometry and blades in the higher hardness ranges so people can see the effects....
 
You're so right buddy ��

EDIT
That's why when I decided to purchased TiSpine I opted for the Damascus version, which I checked to be in the 61 realm and NOT for the Elmax version (59-60) ;)
 
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Ankerson said:
I don't think people quite understand how much of an impact being at or near optimal hardness can make in performance.

That's one of the main reasons why I stated adding the customs into the list in the coarse edge section introducing both thin blade geometry and blades in the higher hardness ranges so people can see the effects....
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I tried to find if this question had been covered and I didn't find it. Jim, most of us are pretty good blade sharpeners, but I am concerned with super hard steels that hand sharpening is accurate enough. Id there a blade sharpened for hard steel that is variable in angle and reliable for a fine edge? If this hasn't been covered, hopefully it will be of interest. Thanks.
 
sawgrass said:
I tried to find if this question had been covered and I didn't find it. Jim, most of us are pretty good blade sharpeners, but I am concerned with super hard steels that hand sharpening is accurate enough. Id there a blade sharpened for hard steel that is variable in angle and reliable for a fine edge? If this hasn't been covered, hopefully it will be of interest. Thanks.
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I am not understanding the question... :confused:
 
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