Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

gunmike1 said:
I'll see about getting the Para to you right away. Another nice thing is that when you test your's when it arrives there will be 2 data points for Carpenter's version of S90V and we can see if it really is as good as real S90V.

Mike
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Yep, that's exactly what was on my mind. :thumbup:
 
I'm a dummy (no secret there) and didn't look too close at the e mail from my dealer and it was actually the Super Leaf that I pre-ordered that is going to be here next week. I will still have my 20CP Para 2 sent off to you when it ships for testing. While I am real excited to get the Super Leaf because of the great ergos and comp lock I don't think it's VG-10 would be too exciting to test considering how extensively it has been tested over the years.

Mike

Miike
 
gunmike1 said:
I'm a dummy (no secret there) and didn't look too close at the e mail from my dealer and it was actually the Super Leaf that I pre-ordered that is going to be here next week. I will still have my 20CP Para 2 sent off to you when it ships for testing. While I am real excited to get the Super Leaf because of the great ergos and comp lock I don't think it's VG-10 would be too exciting to test considering how extensively it has been tested over the years.

Mike

Miike
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That's OK Mike, I thought you just were getting it really early. :)
 
Jim,

Could you add the thickness behind the bevel to the table on the first page? This is likely playing a role in how the different steels rank. A thicker edge, even with the same angle, will result in greater force required to cut. This is corroborated by your results with the three S90V blades.

Thanks
 
Any thoughts on how Vanax75 will turn out? I know I loved Bohler's Elmax and M390.

It has the same 9% vanadium as S90V, but the rest of it is completely different. I think the most notable difference is the final hardness of Rc 60-61 compared to S90V which seems to be Rc 58-59 in production knives. Since it's been well pointed out that hardness plays a pretty big role in edge retention, I'm guessing Vanax75 might be even better than S90V. Another interesting thing to note is the 4.2% of nitrogen compared to Vanax 35's 1.9% nitrogen content. If nitrogen behaves similar to carbon percentile wise, we could be talking about a ridiculous volume of nitrides.

I'm just drooling at the thought of getting my hands on the steel:D.
 
Don M said:
Jim,

Could you add the thickness behind the bevel to the table on the first page? This is likely playing a role in how the different steels rank. A thicker edge, even with the same angle, will result in greater force required to cut. This is corroborated by your results with the three S90V blades.

Thanks
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They are all about the same, most of the blades are Flat Ground and Spydercos, that's why the Worn Manix 2 made a difference. Even the other blades tested are very close to the FFG Spydercos steel behind the edge. If I was testing best to last in order it would really matter a lot more. Most of the blades are .025" behind the edge or very close to that.

Noctis3880 said:
Any thoughts on how Vanax75 will turn out? I know I loved Bohler's Elmax and M390.

It has the same 9% vanadium as S90V, but the rest of it is completely different. I think the most notable difference is the final hardness of Rc 60-61 compared to S90V which seems to be Rc 58-59 in production knives. Since it's been well pointed out that hardness plays a pretty big role in edge retention, I'm guessing Vanax75 might be even better than S90V. Another interesting thing to note is the 4.2% of nitrogen compared to Vanax 35's 1.9% nitrogen content. If nitrogen behaves similar to carbon percentile wise, we could be talking about a ridiculous volume of nitrides.

I'm just drooling at the thought of getting my hands on the steel:D.
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Haven't heard anything about Vanax 75 either way yet.
 
Question to Ankerson...with the knowledge you have gained in all your extensive testing, if you had to choose one knife to use for overall best edge holding across the board (and I understand that all steels differ depending on the material being cut) but on average which knife with what blade steel would you use?
 
ricklee4570 said:
Question to Ankerson...with the knowledge you have gained in all your extensive testing, if you had to choose one knife to use for overall best edge holding across the board (and I understand that all steels differ depending on the material being cut) but on average which knife with what blade steel would you use?
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Military in S90V. :thumbup:

Fixed blade would be my Phil Wilson Custom in M390.

Non Stainless would be CPM-10V.
 
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I have been looking for a Military is S90V for a while now, hard to find a good price on them!

Thanks for the info!
 
ricklee4570 said:
I have been looking for a Military is S90V for a while now, hard to find a good price on them!

Thanks for the info!
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I would keep an eye out for CTS-20CP and Vanax75, as they both have around 9% vanadium content. I believe the CTS version is in the Spyderco Para2 on pre-order from a few dealers. Vanax75 will come out on the Kershaw Tilt, also a pre-order item.

Ankerson said:
Military in S90V. :thumbup:

Fixed blade would be my Phil Wilson Custom in M390.

Non Stainless would be CPM-10V.
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I'd actually be interested in a folder with M390 with a custom heat treat, though I'm not sure who to contact about that:confused:.

Ankerson said:
I couldn't even guess yet, I haven't seen the spec sheet on it.
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According to Spyderco, the elemental makeup is as follows:
-Carbon 0.2%
-Molybdenum 1.2%
-Nitrogen 4.2%
-Silicon 0.3%
-Chromium 21.2%
-Manganese 0.3%
-Vanadium 9%​

There isn't a datasheet for wear resistance, corrosion resistance, or heat treat data, though KnifeCenter's listing puts the steel at Rc 60-61.
 
Noctis3880 said:
I would keep an eye out for CTS-20CP and Vanax75, as they both have around 9% vanadium content. I believe the CTS version is in the Spyderco Para2 on pre-order from a few dealers. Vanax75 will come out on the Kershaw Tilt, also a pre-order item.


I'd actually be interested in a folder with M390 with a custom heat treat, though I'm not sure who to contact about that:confused:.


According to Spyderco, the elemental makeup is as follows:
-Carbon 0.2%
-Molybdenum 1.2%
-Nitrogen 4.2%
-Silicon 0.3%
-Chromium 21.2%
-Manganese 0.3%
-Vanadium 9%​

There isn't a datasheet for wear resistance, corrosion resistance, or heat treat data, though KnifeCenter's listing puts the steel at Rc 60-61.
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If that's right it should really be something, but then that also depends on the HT process.

Not really sure what Custom folder makers are working with M390 and doing their own HT.
 
I updated the S90V HRC hardness for the Para 2 and Military.

They both tested at 60 HRC so I decided to leave the Manix 2 (59) in the list.

Getting S90V to 60 RC in a production knife is amazing, both blades testing to 60 RC is even more amazing. :thumbup:
 
Ankerson said:
I updated the S90V HRC hardness for the Para 2 and Military.

They both tested at 60 HRC so I decided to leave the Manix 2 (59) in the list.

Getting S90V to 60 RC in a production knife is amazing, both blades testing to 60 RC is even more amazing. :thumbup:
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Amen to that. That's far out, truly. Great stuff. :thumbup:
 
Ankerson said:
What I have done is rank the steels in Categories based on edge retention cutting 5/8" manila rope. We are looking for big differences here, not ranking the steels in order such as 1,2,3,4,5. The categories or groups mean that one can expect those steels in that category to have close to the same performance as the other steels in the same category. The categories are ranked in order by edge retention, category 1 will have better performance than category 2 etc.

The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.

The Testing Process is as follows:

Cutting 5/8" Manila rope on a Scale with wood to cut on. The scale was calibrated for the weight of the wood. Making 3 to 4 slicing cuts from back to tip using the least amount of down force needed to get the starting down force. Once that was established 20 cuts were made then down force was tested again and that continued until 20 LBS was reached.

All the knives started at 14 ~ 15 LBS of down force except for M390 because it cuts so aggressively.

Accuracy is to + or - 10 Cuts and + or - 1 LB of down force or 6%. This was verified doing a blind test of blades of unknown hardness until they were tested after. 2 blades of the same hardness and steel, sharpened the same and same model of knife.

RC hardness is + or - 1 RC on the steels that were tested as the standard of RC testing.

All edges were at 30 degrees inclusive and polished to 6000 grit on the Edge Pro, sharpness was tested by slicing TP clean.

The following data is the results that I got based on the above method, while not conclusive or the end all beat all data it is very accurate.

More steels will be added as they are tested.

Category 1

CPM-S90V (Military and Para 2) (60)

Category 2

M390 (60)
CPM M4 (62.5)
CPM - S90V (59) (Manix 2 with 30 Degree Micro Bevel)

Category 3

ZDP-189 (65)
CPM-154 (62)
ELMAX (60)
CTS-XHP
Super Blue (61.5)


Category 4

S30V (60)
VG-1
CPM - D2 (62)

Category 5

INFI
154CM (61)

Category 6

VG-10
S30V (58.5)
AUS-8A
SG-2

Category 7

CTS-BD1
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What about 440c with a quality heat treatment and cooling like Entrek knives?
 
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