Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Actually i.e. 440B/C or D2 have carbides in excess of 100um, lets say between 100 and 200um.
Finest hard particles are the Nitrides in Vanax, 0.7um.
Cr carbides in S90V could be in between 20 and 50um, whereas V carbides will be smaller (probably 5-20um) and V carbides in CPM-3V will be noticeably smaller than these.
W carbides can go as low as 2um.
Of course in an ideal world, ideal HT...

And yes, CPM-M4 and equivalents are very very respected in my personal list, as with slightly more V carbides than 3V and some W carbides for a grand total of 12.6%, will show very fine carbide size, probably in the 3-4um and 2-3um respectively.



I really wish more companies made knives with nitrogen steels. I have a Tilt with vanax 75 and a Carson Griffin in Nitrobe 77 (one of my favorite steels right now) and they take the keebest edges, especially the N77. I saw that Bohler came out with Vanax 37 which is an interesting looking steel and more complex than Vanax 35(I believe 37 had less N but more V and trace elements). Im trying to get custom maker friend to find some vanax for a custom knife with good heat treat and groubd rather thin (.005 range or so).

Dan, do you have any experience with nitride blades? Where do you think vanax stands as far as current steels go?

Thank you.
 
I really wish more companies made knives with nitrogen steels. I have a Tilt with vanax 75 and a Carson Griffin in Nitrobe 77 (one of my favorite steels right now) and they take the keebest edges, especially the N77. I saw that Bohler came out with Vanax 37 which is an interesting looking steel and more complex than Vanax 35(I believe 37 had less N but more V and trace elements). Im trying to get custom maker friend to find some vanax for a custom knife with good heat treat and groubd rather thin (.005 range or so).

Dan, do you have any experience with nitride blades? Where do you think vanax stands as far as current steels go?

Thank you.

Vanax (formerly Vanax 35) is a very very good stainless steel, with stain resistance clearly better than AISI 420 (some say approaching 3xx class) and edge holding approaching S30V at comparable hardness. Very very very fine V nitrides of the MN type in the measure of 9%. Tougher than S30V by means of lacking the relatively bigger Cr carbides (here would be nitrides).
It takes a lovely scary sharp edge.
Vanax requires a very straightforward non nonsense HT (1080°C +DC +2x200°C), which is a plus for custommakers or even production knives. Deep cryo it is mandatory.
I keep this steel in notably high praise.
Honestly enough I have NOT any literature about Vanax 37, I just know Shigorov makes something out of it.
 
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A little offtopic, but what is the best (goldilocks) carbide ratio for a steel - is there such a thing? If yes - what steel(s) are close to it?
 
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Ok guys, I did some rope cutting today on 5/8" hemp. I tested the Hap40 Delica against my Gayle Bradley Flipper in m4 (rc 62-63). I don't have calipers but I would put the edge on the Delica at slightly thicker than the GB. Probably .015" vs .018". Just a guess. Both were beveled to 30 degrees then micro beveled on a 1200 grit DMTs that are mounted to the Sharpmaker at 40 degrees. The edges on both would easily and firmly bite into my beard or the hair on the back of my head on contact.

In this test, I did groups of cutting. I also make multiple sawing motions (about 7) from the start even though its not necessary. The goal of this is to wear the edge as quickly as possible.

-The first set of cuts was 30 (x7) with each knife. At the end of 30 I could feel a definite difference in the two edges. The hap40 edge would still bite and stick in my beard hair but the m4 was starting to slip. The Hap40 would still easily do a straight (perpendicular) push cut into magazine paper where the m4 needed an to be angled to make the pushcut. Both would still easily shave arm hair in one pass.

-The next set was another 20 (x7) cuts. After this set I could feel a bit more degradation in both edges. Neither would stick in beard hair at this point. Hap40 would still push cut magazine paper at an angle but m4 needed just a bit of slice.

-Next set was another 20 cuts which put the knives at 70 (x7) total. After these, neither would pushcut magazine paper and both would occasionally show some VERY slight snagging when slicing the paper. Hap40 would still cleanly shave leg hair in one pass...m4 needed a couple of passes to shave clean. Two VERY TINY shiny spots appeared on the m4 edge. Nothing visible on the hap40.

-I made one final run of 30 cuts to bring them both up to 100 cuts. The interesting thing is the m4 seemed to actually catch up a tiny bit after this run. The hap40 had been notably winning up until the last run but after the last 30 they seemed to be closer. The hap40 still had a bit more bite but they were fairly close. Both needed a couple of passes to shave cleanly and both showed slight snagging when slicing magazine paper. The easiest way to tell the difference at the end of this run was the hap40 was still slicing the rope with less force than the m4. After the run, I tested and found that the hap40 would still fully slice the rope on a 2" draw where the m4 would not quite (under the same amount of force). The shiny spots on the m4 were still barely visible and there were still none visible on the hap40.


At that point, both edges were past what I consider acceptable sharpness so I didn't bother going any further. I have done this same testing with s30v (though in a thicker grind) and it took 50-60 cuts to dull to the point where these two were after 100.

Ok, it's kind of a haphazard way to test and report results but hopefully someone can extract something of value from it. All I can tell you is I continue to be quite happy with hap40. :)


*Jim, I really hope someone sends you a delica to test. I would like to see what kinds of results you get and if they differ any from what you saw with the Endura. I would send you mine if I were up in the USA.
 
Thought I would add one more piece of information. After the testing I thought it would be interesting to measure how many passes on the microbevel it took to bring each knife back to high sharpness. I started with the Delica and made 4 passes on the sharpmaker medium rods and the knife was back to ridiculously sharp and would immediately and firmly lock onto the hair on my beard or head on contact. You heard me right, 4 passes. :eek:

I did the same with the m4 and measured after every couple of passes. After 4 it was nowhere close. It took 16-18 passes to reach the same level of sharpness.

Anyway, just thought that was interesting and worth passing along.
 
A little offtopic, but what is the best (goldilocks) carbide ratio for a steel - is there such a thing? If yes - what steel(s) are close to it?

There is not a rule of thumb, mate.
It depends on so many factors that even barely mentioning them would take a book....
 
A little offtopic, but what is the best (goldilocks) carbide ratio for a steel - is there such a thing? If yes - what steel(s) are close to it?

Haha, yeah, that question is a ginormous can of worms. :D The simple answer is there is no "best" steel. It all depends on what your requirements are. Luckily there are hundreds and hundreds (likely thousands) of threads on blade forums addressing your question so if you are looking to learn, you won't run out of study material for a long long time. ;)
 
Ok guys, I did some rope cutting today on 5/8" hemp. I tested the Hap40 Delica against my Gayle Bradley Flipper in m4 (rc 62-63). I don't have calipers but I would put the edge on the Delica at slightly thicker than the GB. Probably .015" vs .018". Just a guess. Both were beveled to 30 degrees then micro beveled on a 1200 grit DMTs that are mounted to the Sharpmaker at 40 degrees. The edges on both would easily and firmly bite into my beard or the hair on the back of my head on contact.

In this test, I did groups of cutting. I also make multiple sawing motions (about 7) from the start even though its not necessary. The goal of this is to wear the edge as quickly as possible.

-The first set of cuts was 30 (x7) with each knife. At the end of 30 I could feel a definite difference in the two edges. The hap40 edge would still bite and stick in my beard hair but the m4 was starting to slip. The Hap40 would still easily do a straight (perpendicular) push cut into magazine paper where the m4 needed an to be angled to make the pushcut. Both would still easily shave arm hair in one pass.

-The next set was another 20 (x7) cuts. After this set I could feel a bit more degradation in both edges. Neither would stick in beard hair at this point. Hap40 would still push cut magazine paper at an angle but m4 needed just a bit of slice.

-Next set was another 20 cuts which put the knives at 70 (x7) total. After these, neither would pushcut magazine paper and both would occasionally show some VERY slight snagging when slicing the paper. Hap40 would still cleanly shave leg hair in one pass...m4 needed a couple of passes to shave clean. Two VERY TINY shiny spots appeared on the m4 edge. Nothing visible on the hap40.

-I made one final run of 30 cuts to bring them both up to 100 cuts. The interesting thing is the m4 seemed to actually catch up a tiny bit after this run. The hap40 had been notably winning up until the last run but after the last 30 they seemed to be closer. The hap40 still had a bit more bite but they were fairly close. Both needed a couple of passes to shave cleanly and both showed slight snagging when slicing magazine paper. The easiest way to tell the difference at the end of this run was the hap40 was still slicing the rope with less force than the m4. After the run, I tested and found that the hap40 would still fully slice the rope on a 2" draw where the m4 would not quite (under the same amount of force). The shiny spots on the m4 were still barely visible and there were still none visible on the hap40.


At that point, both edges were past what I consider acceptable sharpness so I didn't bother going any further. I have done this same testing with s30v (though in a thicker grind) and it took 50-60 cuts to dull to the point where these two were after 100.

Ok, it's kind of a haphazard way to test and report results but hopefully someone can extract something of value from it. All I can tell you is I continue to be quite happy with hap40. :)


I read somewhere that the cobalt in HAP40 helps the steel to have a tighter grip on those carbides so they wear off at a slower rate - the metallurgists here might have a better idea.
 
I read somewhere that the cobalt in HAP40 helps the steel to have a tighter grip on those carbides so they wear off at a slower rate - the metallurgists here might have a better idea.

Cobalt has many functions in an hardenable martensitic steel: increases hot hardness, refines grain size (as V), raises Ms (martensite start) temperature.

"Cobalt (Co) is a noncarbide former in steels. It decreases hardenability of carbon steels, but by addition of Cr, it increases hardenability of Cr–Mo alloy steels.
Cobalt raises the martensitic transformation temperature of Ms (°C) and decreases the amount of retained austenite in alloy steels.
Cobalt promotes the precipitation hardening.
It inhibits grain growth at high temperature and significantly improves the retention of temper and high-temperature strength, resulting in an increase in tool life.
The use of Co is generally restricted to high-speed steels, hot-forming tool steels, maraging steels, and creep-resistant and high-temperature materials"

(from "Steel Hand Heat Treatment Handbook, 2nd Edition" by George E. Totten, Ph.D., FASM, Taylor & Francis)

Dan
 
Running my old Gayle Bradley now, old model, solid liners, no Texas stamp, at 62.5 HRC and .022" behind the edge.

Knew I would find a reason to run it coarse edge one day. ;)
 
Added Spyderco Gayle Bradley to the list, coarse edge..... :)
 
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Added Spyderco Gayle Bradley to the list, coarse edge..... :)
Wow, I'm guessing you had the hardness tested on that particular knife? Legend has it that the early ones were 64ish, but that 62.5 killed it. That geometry is not even that stellar. Very impressed.
 
Wow, I'm guessing you had the hardness tested on that particular knife? Legend has it that the early ones were 64ish, but that 62.5 killed it. That geometry is not even that stellar. Very impressed.


Yeah, it's old, no stamp and solid liners. :thumbup:

Yes it was tested for hardness.

Have to get more rope, running low now... :rolleyes:
 
Great info Jim, thanks for running that one. You know, I have been going in circles in my head today trying to figure this one out. Like I told you earlier, the most curious part about this to me is that my results typically fall right in line with what you get. So, I went back to the stones today, checked my edges with a loupe and when I was looking at my tiny microbevel on the hap40, I thought to myself. "Hmm, is my microbevel really that tiny or is that edge bevel pretty dang big??

Soooo, heheh....I had not reprofiled the Delica and was running the factory edge bevel with my microbevel on it. As soon as I saw it under the loupe, I realized that factory edge bevel was REALLY big for a knife that thin behind the edge. I knew at that point that I had an edge bevel much more acute than 30 degrees, but just to test it I colored it in and took a few passes on the sharpmaker at 30 degrees with the diamond rods. I checked and sure enough, all I was doing was adding another microbevel that barely covered half the factory edge. The factory bevel on this Delica must be like 10 degrees per side?? Anyway, that should explain a lot about the difference in cutting performance I was seeing. Maybe not everything, but a LOT I would think. Even with a small microbevel a 20 degree edge should still cut circles around a 30 degree as long as it's not sustaining damage right?

So mark this one up to my lack of oversight and poor testing. :o Hey, at least we learned something though! It appears that hap40 can cut rope all day at 20 degrees without any edge damage. Not a total waste of time. I guess. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah, it's old, no stamp and solid liners. :thumbup:

Yes it was tested for hardness.

Have to get more rope, running low now... :rolleyes:

When I said that the HAP-40 Spydie you tested was no more than 62HRC I had some good reasons, then ;)
I'll have to correct myself, though: no more than 60.5HRC
CPM M4 - 500 - Spyderco Gayle Bradley - 62.5 - .022" behind the edge
HAP-40 - 320 - Spyderco Endura - ? RC - .024" behind the edge

I had one of the first run G.B. and I had it tested for 64.2HRC. It was head and shoulders on par to some custom S90V knives at 60HRC.

Thanks for this review Jim
 
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