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Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope
- Thread starter Ankerson
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I certainly understand about not being rich. I get asked alot about specific knives that quite frankly I don't have nor do I plan on owning. So I'm limited to the knives that poeple ask me to sharpen for them, and then, I have to guess on how well they hold up or get that info second hand.
I must respectfully disagree with you however on the one angle and edge course/fineness fits all knives issue however. Although the angle and polish you are using will work well in most cases.
Irregaurdless, the testing you have done is still excellent work and does contain some good information. :thumbup:
In fact, I'm hoping that one day you will be able to test AN-58 steel made by Migeul Neito (Miguel Neito also makes kives for
Puma IP, which BTW, is where I got the Model knife I have made from AN-58, the Compania Ameranth to be specific)
There realy are not alot of reveiws for this steel, your testing it could realy help especaily since you do it well
Thank you for sharring it with us
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Yeah, the only info I can find is from zknives and isn't very positive.In fact, I'm hoping that one day you will be able to test AN-58 steel made by Migeul Neito (Miguel Neito also makes kives for Puma IP, which BTW, is where I got the Model knife I have made from AN-58, the Compania Ameranth to be specific)
There realy are not alot of reveiws for this steel, your testing it could realy help especaily since you do it well
Thank you for sharring it with us
"AN-58(?) - Low carbon, stainless steel. used in cheap stainless knives."
Link: http://zknives.com/knives/steels/an-58.shtml
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What I find most interesting about that particular link is that the source is so oblivious to any knowledge about the steel.
It's a propietary steel, made only by Neito (who in turn also makes knives for PUMA IP).
Also they didn't list many of the other elements used in the steel (Cobalt, Titanium, Copper, Nickle, and I don't know what else) Although they got the Chrome and Carbon content correct at least, not to sure about the amounts given to some of the other elements they listed. Why they would put that up on their site without doing alittle research beforehand I don't know.
I can understand someone taking a casual glance and thinking 420 given the Chrome and Carbon content, I did the same thing at first.
But 420 is a very soft blade steel, never 58-60 HRC like AN-58 is and Titanium, Cobalt, Molybandium, Copper, Vandium, Nickle, Seriously? who puts all that in cheap 420 steel? Why go through the expense if you are making cheap knives? It's also important to notice that some very highly rated steels have even less carbon.
This link has alittle better info, but alas no review of the steels actual performance.
http://www.worldknives.com/info/an58-steel-spec-sheet-miguel-nieto-knives-102.html
Hope that helps
It's a propietary steel, made only by Neito (who in turn also makes knives for PUMA IP).
Also they didn't list many of the other elements used in the steel (Cobalt, Titanium, Copper, Nickle, and I don't know what else) Although they got the Chrome and Carbon content correct at least, not to sure about the amounts given to some of the other elements they listed. Why they would put that up on their site without doing alittle research beforehand I don't know.
I can understand someone taking a casual glance and thinking 420 given the Chrome and Carbon content, I did the same thing at first.
But 420 is a very soft blade steel, never 58-60 HRC like AN-58 is and Titanium, Cobalt, Molybandium, Copper, Vandium, Nickle, Seriously? who puts all that in cheap 420 steel? Why go through the expense if you are making cheap knives? It's also important to notice that some very highly rated steels have even less carbon.
This link has alittle better info, but alas no review of the steels actual performance.
http://www.worldknives.com/info/an58-steel-spec-sheet-miguel-nieto-knives-102.html
Hope that helps
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I've seen test sheets listing the exact composition of the steel that comes with every batch from the foundry that had things like copper, aluminium, and yes, even titanium in tiny amounts listed like the world of knives listing. Steels that are based on recycled stuff melted will have strange compositions ( not strange in recycled steel batches to be honest). I've even heard of lead, cobalt and other stuff not meant to be there showing up.
The amounts listed above aren't enough to really affect the performance in any meaningful way ( copper, aluminum, and Titanium). I doubt it would be consistent from batch to batch at that level. In fact, it might not even be the same in different parts of the billet.
I've only seen that kind of control done ( on purpose) with powder steels, which this isn't.
While this may make perfectly serviceable knives I wouldn't be trying to brag about it as a wonder steel.
On the other hand it doesn't have to be. Good production and consistent heat treats would make knives suitable for most buyers. We aren't most buyers here though. We are the 1% of the market that looks for, argues about and even modifies our knives to seek better performance than is offered to the 99% of the regular buyers.
To some of us here S90V, M390V CPM M4 are base steels with full hardness customs ( rc 64-65) of A11 class steels, or S110V stainless made by top tier cutlers like Phil Wilson are the ones getting used at home in our kitchens and being used as reference standard for other customs. Production knives have come a long, long way now hitting performance areas once even the best custom makers couldn't get. Knives like the Spyderco Phil Wilson Southfork have become our new reference standards.
Pick one up, do some cutting with it and then compare it to what you get from AN-58 in the production knives made from it. We'll see what we'll see. If you haven't tried the cutting edge in production knives in a few years you will be surprised.
Joe
The amounts listed above aren't enough to really affect the performance in any meaningful way ( copper, aluminum, and Titanium). I doubt it would be consistent from batch to batch at that level. In fact, it might not even be the same in different parts of the billet.
I've only seen that kind of control done ( on purpose) with powder steels, which this isn't.
While this may make perfectly serviceable knives I wouldn't be trying to brag about it as a wonder steel.
On the other hand it doesn't have to be. Good production and consistent heat treats would make knives suitable for most buyers. We aren't most buyers here though. We are the 1% of the market that looks for, argues about and even modifies our knives to seek better performance than is offered to the 99% of the regular buyers.
To some of us here S90V, M390V CPM M4 are base steels with full hardness customs ( rc 64-65) of A11 class steels, or S110V stainless made by top tier cutlers like Phil Wilson are the ones getting used at home in our kitchens and being used as reference standard for other customs. Production knives have come a long, long way now hitting performance areas once even the best custom makers couldn't get. Knives like the Spyderco Phil Wilson Southfork have become our new reference standards.
Pick one up, do some cutting with it and then compare it to what you get from AN-58 in the production knives made from it. We'll see what we'll see. If you haven't tried the cutting edge in production knives in a few years you will be surprised.
Joe
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Hey Joe,
I paid a premium of $40 on an Endura 4 to get ZDP 189 and have read since then and heard in YouTube that it's not a very good steel. I researched that it shouldn't and can't (not sure which) be brought to a polished bevel of 30* or it will break and sustain damage unless just jutting string, paper and such.
Any wobble in the cut can break pieces of it off the apex. Also that it should be run at 40* and then it's stronger but still remains a brittle edge and as such should be a dedicated slicer only.
Was I mis-informed? My reading makes me wish I would have saved the money and got VG-10 which is great stuff.
I paid a premium of $40 on an Endura 4 to get ZDP 189 and have read since then and heard in YouTube that it's not a very good steel. I researched that it shouldn't and can't (not sure which) be brought to a polished bevel of 30* or it will break and sustain damage unless just jutting string, paper and such.
Any wobble in the cut can break pieces of it off the apex. Also that it should be run at 40* and then it's stronger but still remains a brittle edge and as such should be a dedicated slicer only.
Was I mis-informed? My reading makes me wish I would have saved the money and got VG-10 which is great stuff.
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Thanks for the link spydusse. I'm at 30 with a 40* microbevel and stropped the daylights out it. Every time I use it, I strop it a little bit on .50 micron HA strop. It seems to be getting sharper than after I first but the microbevel on it.
That probably doesn't make sense but I think the microbevel wasn't perfectly apexed and maybe the stropping is slowly getting it to to apex = sharp!
That probably doesn't make sense but I think the microbevel wasn't perfectly apexed and maybe the stropping is slowly getting it to to apex = sharp!
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Spyderco runs it's ZDP at around rc 62. It can be run up to rc 67. It's not near it's limits. I don't have charpy or any other numbers but I do have some experience with ZDP in Enduras, Stretch's, as well as 420 clad steel in the red Jess Horns, and caly jr's.
It's not especially weak at RC 62. It's not even close to being brittle or pushing it. 30 degrees isn't pushing it either, in my opinion unless there are super thin( as in absurdly thin) steel we are talking about. There are some around here that have pushed it to thinner, lower angles on regrinds and modifications to see what they can in fact do.
By it's nature it's a pretty high carbide steel which isn't the toughest around. It is designed with cutlery and slicing in mind but it is a very clean powder steel that really is not known for having inclusions, poor quality control, or other performance lowering issues. It is a flagship steel to the point that they even want to make sure who, and how the heat treating is to be done. Recall that when William Henry began using the steel they cut and ground it, sent it back to Japan for heat treating, then got it back here for final finish.
I don't agree that it will only cut string and paper or get damaged with the care and angles you have chosen for it. Unless there is some other problem it should be a bit tougher than that. How much more I can't say, and depends on a lot of factors.
I wouldn't baby it. It doesn't do well with teeth. They chip and occasionally break. Your knife should do pretty much anything you need but I'd not do any prying, impacting, cutting metal, or twisting out of cuts. That's about the same rules I apply to all my thin edged, low angled high carbide slicers. I use it like my VG10, but enjoy the greater wear resistance, and better bite from the carbides which helps on plastic sheeting etc. I don't polish my ZDP ( even though it does that very, very well) but stop at DMT black or Blue. I like the bite of the carbides.
If you use it sensibly and it breaks then send it back, Something is wrong. If you have truly eliminated you as the cause then send it in. It shouldn't though. I even let my son borrow my Endura ZDP for his pest control job as he likes it over the VG10. As he says it cuts better, and it lasts longer. A simple way to look at it from a non knife knut.
Joe
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You are misinformed. Did you ever observe such edge damage yourself? I would say that there would be a problem if you run it into metal or concrete, but most steels will have a problem with that.
I have an Endura, Yuna Mini Hard 2, 2 William Henry B12 folders, and a Miyabi 7000MC Chef's Knife in ZDP-189. The last two are run at Rc 66-67. I might occasionally see some micro-chipping when cutting cardboard, but nothing impressive. The most damage I've seen is when cutting something that has a lot of dirt on it like onion roots, but even M390 seems to chip against that. I wouldn't use it as a camp knife or to pry things with, but I never felt the need to baby it more than say, S90V or similar. I took my chef's knife down to 10 degrees per side and only noticed damage with heavy cutting on a pineapple, but I suspect my plastic cutting board did most of the damage there.
You might notice some damage on manila rope or if cutting a tire up. To be honest though, I've seen weaker steels on those cheap Made in China knives you get from the supermarket.
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My Caly 3 in ZDP chipped (maybe rolled) the factory edge. I put my own 30 degree edge on it and have not had an issue since. I do not use the knife much, it is more of a dress knife, but I have heard about newer knives chipping or rolling on the factory edge and then never again after a sharpening due to some phenomenon of getting to different new steel. Do not know if I buy it, but it made me feel better and I have not chipped or rolled since! I was very disappointed after my brand new Caly got damaged but not anymore, I am glad I bought it.
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Nah, we are just all different. You can do most of your maintaining that way. It sure will make the blade last longer. You will know when it's time to freshen up the edge, then continue with the strop treatment.
I do that sometimes when I haven't used the knife very hard but I want a bit more bite. I am currently using a strop and some diamond paste I got from Ferhman when I bought my FJ. It's the best I have used. I need to call them and find out what it is so I can order some. It works great.
I actually do have different finishes on different knives, as well as different grinds ( V grind, convex, etc.). I have different grits depending on the steel, and the knives intended use. On trappers and stockmen I have a different angle, grit and overall finish on each blade. The Spey blade gets almost a razor/scalpel grind though I sure don't castrate many animals with it living in my townhouse. ( I used to live on a farm and tried to get out of that job even then when I could.
)Joe
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The last I worked with any of the Super steels was the 90's, you are spot on about that one Joe.
Back then they were really crude steels only good at thicker and course edges.
They held a usable edge for a long long time but lacked the ability to hold a fine fine edge very well, so I gave up on the high carbide super steel type blades.
Besides that I have a strong preference against Spydrco's blade and handle designs. They are clever designs, I'll give them that, and the designs are not bad by any means. I just personally really hate it but someone else might love it. Nothing wrong with that, just different strokes I guess.
Unfortunately Spyderco also has the best manufacturing going as far as these new steel types, which is a HUGE factor.
SO! I stuck with allot of German and US made steels. The "old guard" if you will.
As far as AN 58 steel being a wounder steel I NEVER said that.
I have done some of my own testing, and beyond it sharpening like a good hard 440C (maybe alittle better), and hanging onto that TP slicing and hairsplitting edge well enough so far (beating 420HC by a wide enough margin, jury is still out on comparing it to Boker's 440 steels but it seems to be a somewhat better so far)
What I have said however, is that this steel deserves a second look and should be not confused with cheap or recycled steel, or with 420. That this steel is better than that at least.
Beyond that I have said nothing. (well, I found zknives analysis amusing I confess)
I DO know that Neito was dissatisfied with 440c, (that's never been a secret) and had the new steel developed to keep pace with some of the new steels coming to market.
I also know that the composition in AN 58 is on purpose, complete with quality control measures to ensure consistency. What production methods or technology they use I have no idea. Neito is pretty tight liped about allot of the specifics about the steel.
How it compares with some of the newer steels is what I'm anxious to see actually.
Maybe it will only do fair, IDK.
It may be awhile before I drop another one or two hundred on a knife though.
Nonetheless, maybe you can offer me some advice for when I am ready to buy my next knife Joe......
What I look for is keeping the extremely sharp edge longer as opposed to keeping a moderately sharp edge longer, at thinner sharpening angles, say 12 to 17 degrees both sides approx. I use either a strop or smooth sharpening steel to finish depending on what seems to work better for that particular steel (and that one can be a matter of opinion, I learned from both an old barber AND an old butcher) I tend to favor strength and toughness equally with hardness.
Out of the current reigning Champions of edge retension, which steel is the best for that type of edge?
David
PS, anyone try Bokers new Conduir 30 steel yet? Boker is claiming it will hold an edge longer than anything we have seen.
Back then they were really crude steels only good at thicker and course edges.
They held a usable edge for a long long time but lacked the ability to hold a fine fine edge very well, so I gave up on the high carbide super steel type blades.
Besides that I have a strong preference against Spydrco's blade and handle designs. They are clever designs, I'll give them that, and the designs are not bad by any means. I just personally really hate it but someone else might love it. Nothing wrong with that, just different strokes I guess.
Unfortunately Spyderco also has the best manufacturing going as far as these new steel types, which is a HUGE factor.
SO! I stuck with allot of German and US made steels. The "old guard" if you will.
As far as AN 58 steel being a wounder steel I NEVER said that.
I have done some of my own testing, and beyond it sharpening like a good hard 440C (maybe alittle better), and hanging onto that TP slicing and hairsplitting edge well enough so far (beating 420HC by a wide enough margin, jury is still out on comparing it to Boker's 440 steels but it seems to be a somewhat better so far)
What I have said however, is that this steel deserves a second look and should be not confused with cheap or recycled steel, or with 420. That this steel is better than that at least.
Beyond that I have said nothing. (well, I found zknives analysis amusing I confess)
I DO know that Neito was dissatisfied with 440c, (that's never been a secret) and had the new steel developed to keep pace with some of the new steels coming to market.
I also know that the composition in AN 58 is on purpose, complete with quality control measures to ensure consistency. What production methods or technology they use I have no idea. Neito is pretty tight liped about allot of the specifics about the steel.
How it compares with some of the newer steels is what I'm anxious to see actually.
Maybe it will only do fair, IDK.
It may be awhile before I drop another one or two hundred on a knife though.
Nonetheless, maybe you can offer me some advice for when I am ready to buy my next knife Joe......
What I look for is keeping the extremely sharp edge longer as opposed to keeping a moderately sharp edge longer, at thinner sharpening angles, say 12 to 17 degrees both sides approx. I use either a strop or smooth sharpening steel to finish depending on what seems to work better for that particular steel (and that one can be a matter of opinion, I learned from both an old barber AND an old butcher) I tend to favor strength and toughness equally with hardness.
Out of the current reigning Champions of edge retension, which steel is the best for that type of edge?
David
PS, anyone try Bokers new Conduir 30 steel yet? Boker is claiming it will hold an edge longer than anything we have seen.
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If you're after a razor edge, I believe 13C26 will hold an edge like most carbon steels. Elmax and M390 also seem to be good for it despite the high carbide volume, though it may be more difficult getting them that sharp in the first place depending on what you have to sharpen with. I'm thinking Elmax might be right for you, maybe a ZT 0560/1? A Kershaw Speedform II would be a good entry for that steel at about $71 on eBay. Small knife, but beats sinking $250+ into one before you're sure.
Still, what you have to sharpen with might affect your steel choice. No use having a high carbide steel if you can't sharpen it in the first place.
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Moi? not able to sharpen high carbide?
Na, I can sharpen any steel you throw at me (well, don't literally THROW it at me)
I prob will get the cheapest knife with one of those steels though and see what they do before buying a model I really want, at some point anyway. The problem with going with a cheaper company is that when it comes to the thin fine edges, care in the manufacturing is just as if not more important than the type of steel. Hence, a cheaper version of the steel won't always give me a true picture of how the better version of the steel will perform.
The Spyderco Lionspy has a blade shape I sorta like, but it's a thicker blade and like all spyderco knives I have seen... it's still UGLY, at least in my opinion. And like you said before sinking 250 bucks it would be good to be sure about it's performance with thinner and finner edges. Sinking 100 bucks and sinking 450 bucks on a hunch are 2 different things.
TY for the advice! I'll post what I find.
I will tell you though, when it comes to hard to sharpen some (not all, but some) of the turn of the century era diamond dust steel blades are the toughest I have seen. Much tougher than any modern High carbide I have sharpened. Although I admit I have not sharpened every kind out there. They (diamond dust steels) require specail stones (which I happen to have), and may God help you if the knife was not cared for in the last 50 years and before that used for gardening like the hunting knife I bought was. It took FOREVER to get that thing straigtened out so it would hold an egde. I still need to work on it's bevel more and give it a proper polish. Not quite done restoring it yet.
It does however, retain it's edge...
Na, I can sharpen any steel you throw at me (well, don't literally THROW it at me)
I prob will get the cheapest knife with one of those steels though and see what they do before buying a model I really want, at some point anyway. The problem with going with a cheaper company is that when it comes to the thin fine edges, care in the manufacturing is just as if not more important than the type of steel. Hence, a cheaper version of the steel won't always give me a true picture of how the better version of the steel will perform.
The Spyderco Lionspy has a blade shape I sorta like, but it's a thicker blade and like all spyderco knives I have seen... it's still UGLY, at least in my opinion. And like you said before sinking 250 bucks it would be good to be sure about it's performance with thinner and finner edges. Sinking 100 bucks and sinking 450 bucks on a hunch are 2 different things.
TY for the advice! I'll post what I find.
I will tell you though, when it comes to hard to sharpen some (not all, but some) of the turn of the century era diamond dust steel blades are the toughest I have seen. Much tougher than any modern High carbide I have sharpened. Although I admit I have not sharpened every kind out there. They (diamond dust steels) require specail stones (which I happen to have), and may God help you if the knife was not cared for in the last 50 years and before that used for gardening like the hunting knife I bought was. It took FOREVER to get that thing straigtened out so it would hold an egde. I still need to work on it's bevel more and give it a proper polish. Not quite done restoring it yet.
It does however, retain it's edge...
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Actually I consider to Lionspy to be ugly even among Spyderco knives
.I can't say that there's any "thin" knife in Elmax steel. The Speedform II isn't particularly thin by my standards, and the ZT 0560 definitely won't be thin. Maybe try one of Benchmade's M390 knives? I believe a dealer exclusive 710 goes for about $150.
This would be the first I ever heard of a diamond dust steel blade. I did think it was a bit odd that the idea of mixing carbides into the steel matrix didn't lead to mixing diamond particles in the steel matrix as well, but I just assumed there was a problem with the process given that the most I find with a google search would be butcher steels with diamonds coating the outer layer. If it does exist however it would make S125V look like a walk in the park to sharpen. Who makes that kind of knife?
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ritterdl69, I too think the newer type 3rd generation stainless steels like Elmax and M390 are very good all around packages. You can obviously find a steel here and there that has one or two attributes at a higher level than either ( wear resistance for instance) steel but when you look at the whole package it's difficult to find better performers without looking hard and spending lots.
The steels have excellent quality control and the composition is pretty consistent, and you are unlikely to find inclusions or voids in the steels. The powder process gives a smaller carbide structure for the amount of carbides giving better toughness than would otherwise be achievable in steels with this high percentages of certain elements. In fact some of the steels can't be made without using the powder process.
It's a really good time to be a knife knut into performance type knives. By far the best selection and highest performing knives are available for purchase than has ever been available in my 40 some years of knife use.
The problem isn't finding performance, but stopping spending at a reasonable level while trying out all the new steels, lock designs, grinds, grips, etc.
I haven't tried Conduir 30 yet. I've heard it takes nice edges but that's about all I've heard.
Regards,
Joe
The steels have excellent quality control and the composition is pretty consistent, and you are unlikely to find inclusions or voids in the steels. The powder process gives a smaller carbide structure for the amount of carbides giving better toughness than would otherwise be achievable in steels with this high percentages of certain elements. In fact some of the steels can't be made without using the powder process.
It's a really good time to be a knife knut into performance type knives. By far the best selection and highest performing knives are available for purchase than has ever been available in my 40 some years of knife use.
The problem isn't finding performance, but stopping spending at a reasonable level while trying out all the new steels, lock designs, grinds, grips, etc.
I haven't tried Conduir 30 yet. I've heard it takes nice edges but that's about all I've heard.
Regards,
Joe
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One of my XM-18 is in Duratech 20CV and I looked it up, only to find out it's equivalent to M390. Rick doesn't run it as hard as the CTS & S35 offerings but man it's really nice to work with as in easy to sharpen and very rugged. (59-60 HRC compared to 60-61 HRC for the last 2)
I beat the snot out of that blade and the stonewash finish stayed just as glossy as can be, sharpening was easy with dia-folds or Dmt bench stones. It didn't respond one little bit to the Sharpmaker though. So M390 must be good stuff by my experience with the DT20CV.:thumbup:
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Actually I consider to Lionspy to be ugly even among Spyderco knives
I can't say that there's any "thin" knife in Elmax steel. The Speedform II isn't particularly thin by my standards, and the ZT 0560 definitely won't be thin. Maybe try one of Benchmade's M390 knives? I believe a dealer exclusive 710 goes for about $150.
This would be the first I ever heard of a diamond dust steel blade. I did think it was a bit odd that the idea of mixing carbides into the steel matrix didn't lead to mixing diamond particles in the steel matrix as well, but I just assumed there was a problem with the process given that the most I find with a google search would be butcher steels with diamonds coating the outer layer. If it does exist however it would make S125V look like a walk in the park to sharpen. Who makes that kind of knife?
As far as finding the right knife for me, I have plenty of time. I havn't tested out these steels yet.
As far as Diamond dust goes.....
There WAS a problem in the process, the dust is notoriously inconsistent throughout the blade. So much so that the ones that have been resharpened allot will many times have dips in the blade where the steel wears away much much faster due to the inconsistency of the diamond particles.
Remington made it pre WW2, exactly what years I don't know. That stuff however was not as hard to sharpen as it was before Remington bought out the company that made the really tuff stuff.
I THINK the name of that company was Royal, but I'm not certain. That's the Knife I have, and it has RH 36 stamped on the tang with what I am told is supposed to be a crown in an oval with "made in U S A" under the oval, the oval is in between the RH and the 36.
Remington Kept the same numbering system when they bought the company out and removed the symbol. That's how you know the difference you see.
I first heard about the steel from listening to my Dad and Uncles talking about it and how impossible it is to resharpen once the blade gets too dull (without spending an eternity redoing it like I did).
It was the super steel of it's day, and Ya, it's got a few drawbacks. So much so it's easy to see why they quite making it.
Who else made diamond dust steel I don't know. You are talking about knives that were made about 100 years ago, hard to dig up much info.
Regretably, I don't see a history on Remington's website.