Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Ankerson, I really do appreciate the studies you have done for the benefit of everyone who appreciates the steel used in their knives. I have many d2 knives and I love them, however, I would like to have the hardest steel knife that can be bought. Would you think a rex123 or maybe a d 3, d5 or something else? This would be a novelty for me but I have no idea where such a knife as you will suggest can be bought. Thank you for you answer and insight.
 
I agree with David Lowry, this is an exceptionally good thread and so very informative. Thanks again.

Richard
 
sawgrass said:
Ankerson, I really do appreciate the studies you have done for the benefit of everyone who appreciates the steel used in their knives. I have many d2 knives and I love them, however, I would like to have the hardest steel knife that can be bought. Would you think a rex123 or maybe a d 3, d5 or something else? This would be a novelty for me but I have no idea where such a knife as you will suggest can be bought. Thank you for you answer and insight.
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I think the max one would really get would be CPM 15V or CPM S125V either in the 64+ RC range, I seriously doubt any steel would top either one of them for pure edge retention.

Next one down would be A11 in the 66-67 RC range. Then CPM S110V in the 64-65 RC Range....

I just don't see anything steel wise that would top those based on the Vanadium content and that's were it really counts, that and high RC range....
 
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They are making high speed knives for foodies that are up in the rc 68-69 range in steels like HAP 72. http://www.fendrihan.com/kiya-westernstyle-kamagata-knife-hitachi-steel-blade-p-2328.html

It might do ok with the light cutting such knives do and I doubt it will have the wear that all those vanadium carbides will give in the A11 class. Still, it might be nice for cutting proteins like fish and other stuff. Wear resistance would be fine for that and as long as it didn't get damaged it would need a bit of steeling or stropping now and then. One minute cutting on Jim's ropes would be enough to send it back to the maker for a rework though.
 
Ankerson, your work is HIGHLY appreciated here.

Ijust wonder if you have some data on A2 steel (CRK Shadow IV owned here).

Thanks in advance
 
daberti said:
Ankerson, your work is HIGHLY appreciated here.

Ijust wonder if you have some data on A2 steel (CRK Shadow IV owned here).

Thanks in advance
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Haven't got my hands on anything thin enough to test, A2 is a good steel for harder use knives, but as with most of the lower alloy steels they don't do quite as well in this type of test. :)
 
Ankerson said:
Haven't got my hands on anything thin enough to test, A2 is a good steel for harder use knives, but as with most of the lower alloy steels they don't do quite as well in this type of test. :)
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Thanks Ankerson. It was just a curiosity of mine.
I just hope CRK HT had brought about only M7C3 primary Cr carbides and not also M23C6 weaker ones.
 
daberti said:
Thanks Ankerson. It was just a curiosity of mine.
I just hope CRK HT had brought about only M7C3 primary Cr carbides and not also M23C6 weaker ones.
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Determining the exact carbide type sounds like a job for a lab with an Xray diffractometer.
 
I've seen HAP40, but HAP72 looks like a beast, has anyone used these Hitachi alloys? Hitachi seems so committed to clean alloys and fine grain that they would be great to compare to Bohler and Carpenter.

The Cobalt content is through the roof in all HAP steels, do you guys think is beneficial compared to the western equivalent?
 
I've seen HAP40, but HAP72 looks like a beast, has anyone used these Hitachi alloys? Hitachi seems so committed to clean alloys and fine grain that they would be great to compare to Bohler and Carpenter.

The Cobalt content is through the roof in all HAP steels, do you guys think is beneficial compared to the western equivalent?
 
cm_bushman said:
I've seen HAP40, but HAP72 looks like a beast, has anyone used these Hitachi alloys? Hitachi seems so committed to clean alloys and fine grain that they would be great to compare to Bohler and Carpenter.

The Cobalt content is through the roof in all HAP steels, do you guys think is beneficial compared to the western equivalent?
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Hitachi does NOT produce with 3rd generation PM technology. BU does and it is the only one Worldwide. It brings about the least unwanted inclusions and superior toughness.
Carpenter with its Micromelt technology is following.

I've had very bad experiences with ZDP189. Chipping, rusting...I can speak very well of CTS-XHP, CTS-BD4P, CTS-204P, Elmax, M390, in stainless realm and when properly HTd.
 
What aboug mpl 1? I know it has 3.75% carbon, 24% chromium(I think), tungsten and around 15% vanadium. At 52 hrc it has 1.5 times wear resistance of s90v at 60 hrc and at 67 hrc it almost 3 times as much. When heat treated its 48% carbide. I hear its a bitch to work with since it only comes in round stock, dont know why its like that, maybe its too brittle to roll out. It would be a novelty knife since it would be extremely brittle. I think a properly heat treated and ground s110v, s125v, 10v and 15v are wzy more than enough for even the snobiest steel snob :). Hell ive had my s110v manix lwt and I havent had to strop it yet. Although its seen less time since I got my elmax para 2(love that knive). Ive wanted to try out elmax for a while now but didnt want it from, zt, lion steel or fox and ive hoped for a spyderco elmax blade(wish it was a military though, ahh) and they came through and im really impressed. Cut up a bunch of cardboard and the edge was still shaving sharp. Way to go spyderco.
 
d00mtr33 said:
What aboug mpl 1? I know it has 3.75% carbon, 24% chromium(I think), tungsten and around 15% vanadium. At 52 hrc it has 1.5 times wear resistance of s90v at 60 hrc and at 67 hrc it almost 3 times as much. When heat treated its 48% carbide. I hear its a bitch to work with since it only comes in round stock, dont know why its like that, maybe its too brittle to roll out. It would be a novelty knife since it would be extremely brittle. I think a properly heat treated and ground s110v, s125v, 10v and 15v are wzy more than enough for even the snobiest steel snob :). Hell ive had my s110v manix lwt and I havent had to strop it yet. Although its seen less time since I got my elmax para 2(love that knive). Ive wanted to try out elmax for a while now but didnt want it from, zt, lion steel or fox and ive hoped for a spyderco elmax blade(wish it was a military though, ahh) and they came through and im really impressed. Cut up a bunch of cardboard and the edge was still shaving sharp. Way to go spyderco.
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s125v has a proven history for chipping and S110V isn't a candy either.
10v and 15v are good for a fillet knive, maybe a skinner.
Remaining in Crucible realm maybe the best possible compromise between acceptable toughness and very good edge retention is CPM-M4 IMHO.
But then why carbon steel when M390 at >=61HRC can give same toughness, slightly more edge retention, finer grain, less inclusions and stain resistance?
In first post Ankerson sadly says "The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.
".
I wish it was instead...
 
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daberti said:
s125v has a proven history for chipping and S110V isn't a candy either.
10v and 15v are good for a fillet knive, maybe a skinner.
Remaining in Crucible realm maybe the best possible compromise between acceptable toughness and very good edge retention is CPM-M4 IMHO.
But then why carbon steel when M390 at >=61HRC can give same toughness, slightly more edge retention, finer grain, less inclusions and stain resistance?
In first post Ankerson sadly says "The Custom Phil Wilson knives in M390 (62) and ELMAX (62) are not added to the data, they wouldn't fit into any of the Categories due to the Optimal HT and cutting ability, the difference is off the scale percentage wise so it wasn't added.
".
I wish it was instead...
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S125V isn't chippy when heat treated properly, the problem with S125V is working with it making knife blades out of it, but once the blades are made it's fine, extremely hard to work with and expensive.....

CPM 15V hasn't been used enough in knife blades to really know all that much about it.

CPM 10V isn't chippy at all, it's an extremely strong steel with extremely high compression strength, it's been around since 1978....

CPM S110V isn't chippy either, excellent steel all the way around... Now that Spyderco is using it we will see a lot more of it out there so people can see what it will really do.

There is a lot of bad information floating around about S110V and 10V (A11), hopefully that will get cleared up in the future, it's already started as those who have gotten their hands on the S110V Manix 2 and are using them have reported very positive results. That's contrary to what some what people to believe for a variety of reasons.

As with any steel the heat treatment and tempering processes have to be correct.
 
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Ankerson said:
S125V isn't chippy when heat treated properly, the problem with S125V is working with it making knife blades out of it, but once the blades are made it's fine, extremely hard to work with and expensive.....

CPM 15V hasn't been used enough in knife blades to really know all that much about it.

CPM 10V isn't chippy at all, it's an extremely strong steel with extremely high compression strength, it's been around since 1978....

CPM S110V isn't chippy either, excellent steel all the way around... Now that Spyderco is using it we will see a lot more of it out there so people can see what it will really do.

There is a lot of bad information floating around about S110V and 10V (A11), hopefully that will get cleared up in the future, it's already started as those who have gotten their hands on the S110V Manix 2 and are using them have reported very positive results. That's contrary to what some what people to believe for a variety of reasons.

As with any steel the heat treatment and tempering processes have to be correct.
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Every knife steel will chip/microchip. Even when optimally HTd for its meant use.
Compression strength it is strictly related with hardness, toughness is quite another story to be told though.
I have yet to see a chopper/hard use/all round camping/trekking fixed blade knife made out of s110v, s125v, 10v or 15v.
They simply won't trespass even 35J of toughness.
Somewhere Crucible itself said that when toughness comes into play, 3v might perform better (in edge holding) than 10v due to microchipping issues.

But there is more.
S125v is no longer available.
110v could potentially be a very good steel for folders, yet it's stain resistance is just a hair better than 440c as so much Cr is tied up in carbides. Despite other strong carbide formers as Nb and V.

Good news are that Latrobe took over Crucible after bankruptcy and Carpenter took over Latrobe.
And Carpenter has invested in more physically refined PM TECHNOLOGY rather than in a a Vanadium rush ;)

Other than this nowadays the only worldwide 3rd generation PM production facilities, which advantages are well known, are the ones of BU.

I developed the HT of Elmax, S90v and M390 side to side with Elliot Williamson. He said that the tip of an Elmax blade hit by accident concrete. The nick was on concrete...so to speak.

Of course s110v could and will hold an edge longer, even on highly abrasive media.
Yet this is not the whole picture, Ankerson. With full given respect.
When I go trekking in the Alps I always carry three knives. A fixed and two folders.
Every knife choosen to trespass roughly 40j of toughness with >=61Hrc, based on my experience (military service in Alpine Corps included).
This way the range of possible steels narrows down quite a bit ;)
 
Yeah, also Carpenter is 3rd gen PM not Bohler. Many claim that to be a reason 204P did better than M390. Not sure about that though. You couldn't claim that, only speculate.
 
daberti said:
Every knife steel will chip/microchip. Even when optimally HTd for its meant use.
Compression strength it is strictly related with hardness, toughness is quite another story to be told though.
I have yet to see a chopper/hard use/all round camping/trekking fixed blade knife made out of s110v, s125v, 10v or 15v.
They simply won't trespass even 35J of toughness.
Somewhere Crucible itself said that when toughness comes into play, 3v might perform better (in edge holding) than 10v due to microchipping issues.
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I suspect that reasons to avoid such high-wear steels for choppers is expense of production as well as difficulty of maintenance since, as you mention, ALL steels will chip/microchip under the right conditions and knife-blades take the steel to very thin geometry, pushing the limits of strength and toughness. It would be folly to spend such effort to create a blade so difficult to maintain under normal use.

That said, we see stainless machetes all the time in which the steel is HT'd low to maintain free chromium and soft to improve toughness. At normal knife hardness (60+Rc) the edges will fracture readily under "heavy use" (impact).


M390, 3rd-Gen PM from BU, also only achieves ~35J toughness and you do not see it used for choppers. But that does not mean that it is "chippy". Like the USA steels, it is designed to take a very keen edge and hold it against corrosive and abrasive wear for a LONG time... and while impact toughness is improved over large-carbide steels like 440C and D2, and you do see it used in outdoor knives (as you also see CPM-20CV), it is still not intended for "heavy" impact use. The main reason that you don't see it more has to do with COST of production vs BENEFIT of implementation. If users get what they need from 440C or even 420HC, what incentive do they have for paying more for M390 or S90V? And fro what i have read, S90V and M390 are about equal in toughness: http://www.kau.se/sites/default/files/Dokument/subpage/2010/02/26_349_359_pdf_19432.pdf

daberti said:
...3rd generation PM production facilities, which advantages are well known...
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Could you detail those advantages? For example, M390 (3rd Gen) vs S90V (1st gen?)

daberti said:
.Every knife choosen to trespass roughly 40j of toughness with >=61Hrc, based on my experience (military service in Alpine Corps included). This way the range of possible steels narrows down quite a bit ;)
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Narrow indeed!
 
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