Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

chiral.grolim said:
I don't know about the S125V, but regarding Crucible - Latrobe - Carpenter, 2010 then 2012:
http://www.watermill.com/crucible-i...alty-steel-distribution-announce-partnership/
http://ir.cartech.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=64522&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1667448&highlight=
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Crucible and Latrobe had a partnership agreement with regards to making and distributing steel. Latrobe never bought Crucible. A partnership is much different than a buy out.

Carpenter did buy Latrobe. In my opinion, this was the best thing that ever happened to Latrobe.

Chuck
 
I think "generation" refers to what one company has done, not to all companies. They use similar but not identical production methods. They have independently developed their own processes. What one calls first or second or third generation may not apply to what other companies are doing.
 
Don M said:
I think "generation" refers to what one company has done, not to all companies.
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This is incorrect.

1st Generation = Powdered Metal

2nd Generation = Very Fine Powdered Metal

3rd Generation = Extremely Clean Very Fine Powdered Metal

Every steel company representative I've spoken to defined or agrees with the definition above. If the steel companies agree, knife collectors should agree.

Chuck
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
This is incorrect.

1st Generation = Powdered Metal

2nd Generation = Very Fine Powdered Metal

3rd Generation = Extremely Clean Very Fine Powdered Metal

Every steel company representative I've spoken to defined or agrees with the definition above. If the steel companies agree, knife collectors should agree.

Chuck
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Good information. Thanks AKS.
 
Alpha Knife Supply said:
Crucible and Latrobe had a partnership agreement with regards to making and distributing steel. Latrobe never bought Crucible. A partnership is much different than a buy out.

Carpenter did buy Latrobe. In my opinion, this was the best thing that ever happened to Latrobe.

Chuck
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Hi Chuck, You seem like a knowledgeable guy. I wonder if you can set me straight on one point that even after searching seems vague. Does CPM stand for Crucible powdered metallurgy? Thanks.
 
daberti said:
Every knife steel will chip/microchip. Even when optimally HTd for its meant use.
Compression strength it is strictly related with hardness, toughness is quite another story to be told though.
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All edges will fail one of two ways, they will chip (Microchip) or they will roll (Compress/flatten)...

daberti said:
I have yet to see a chopper/hard use/all round camping/trekking fixed blade knife made out of s110v, s125v, 10v or 15v.
They simply won't trespass even 35J of toughness.
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I know of at least one Competition Chopper made from CPM 10V...... I don't know of any reason why 10V or S110V wouldn't do well in that type of use with proper geometry, (that being all round camping/trekking fixed blade knife)

daberti said:
Somewhere Crucible itself said that when toughness comes into play, 3v might perform better (in edge holding) than 10v due to microchipping issues.
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Haven't read that one, and I still have my doubts that 10V would fail that easy with the proper geometry for that type of use... That's based on what I have personally seen in a number of knives in A11 steels...

daberti said:
But there is more.
S125v is no longer available.
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It's still available by special order.

daberti said:
110v could potentially be a very good steel for folders, yet it's stain resistance is just a hair better than 440c as so much Cr is tied up in carbides. Despite other strong carbide formers as Nb and V.
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I have a lot of experience with S110V at different hardness ranges from 58-65 RC and currently use S110V on a daily basis at 65 RC in the kitchen and haven't noticed any staining issues...







daberti said:
Of course s110v could and will hold an edge longer, even on highly abrasive media.
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Well S110V has very high abrasion resistance specifically at high hardness.
 
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nccole said:
Yeah, also Carpenter is 3rd gen PM not Bohler. Many claim that to be a reason 204P did better than M390. Not sure about that though. You couldn't claim that, only speculate.
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I doubt if both steels were HT and tempered the same and the same Hardness and tested in the same model knife etc I doubt one could tell the difference between them..

It would be like testing 2x M390 blades or 2x 204P blades.
 
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Alpha Knife Supply said:
This is incorrect.

1st Generation = Powdered Metal

2nd Generation = Very Fine Powdered Metal

3rd Generation = Extremely Clean Very Fine Powdered Metal

Every steel company representative I've spoken to defined or agrees with the definition above. If the steel companies agree, knife collectors should agree.

Chuck
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Where do you think something like Pearl Technology of ERASteel would fit in? To my knowledge they produce some steels that are regarded as "extremely clean" by many in the oil and gas industry as well as knife making.

From what I have read they can produce normal Powdered Steel and what they call Pearl Micro Fine Powders via VIM gas atomization where they can control the particle size distribution tailored for the application.

My experience with RWL-34, Nitrobe 77 (considered a very pure alloy) from ERASteel has been great.
 
marthinus said:
Where do you think something like Pearl Technology of ERASteel would fit in? To my knowledge they produce some steels that are regarded as "extremely clean" by many in the oil and gas industry as well as knife making.

From what I have read they can produce normal Powdered Steel and what they call Pearl Micro Fine Powders via VIM gas atomization where they can control the particle size distribution tailored for the application.

My experience with RWL-34, Nitrobe 77 (considered a very pure alloy) from ERASteel has been great.
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I have never spoken to representatives of the steel companies who make RWL-34, Nitrobe 77 from ERASteel. I would like to talk to them.

Chuck
 
nccole said:
Yeah, also Carpenter is 3rd gen PM not Bohler. Many claim that to be a reason 204P did better than M390. Not sure about that though. You couldn't claim that, only speculate.
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Not at all mate
http://www.sablade.com/forums/showt...lmax-M390-and-RWL-34&p=183&viewfull=1#post183

Carpenter on 204P uses their Micromelt technology (not used on everyone of their PM steels, though) on top of 2nd Gen PM to approach results of 3rd Gen PM.
Carpenter uses 2nd Gen. PM, as Ankerson himself states here
Just as a rough comparison between 204P and M390 only edge retention wise (toughness not considered):
1)vacum furnace at 1180°C, gas overpressure quenching, tempered at 100°C both score 60HRC. Add cryo and the first reaches 61, whilst M390 approaches 64HRC.
2)atmosphere furnace at 1150°C, oil quenched, tempered at 100°C cryo, 204P reaches 62, whilst M390 is at 65+HRC (65HRC without cryo).

So I have some thoughts when people say that 204P outperforms M390, because in mass produced blades M390 will never be HTd the way it asks for: ie. oil quenching, which makes it shine in a category apart. This would mean an Nu Foil capable of withstanding such high temperatures, to avoid decarburization and oxidation and very careful procedures.

I own two folders of Elliot Williamson where we went oil quenching and even secondary hardening, for further very fine carbide precipitation. No cryo. BU M390 datasheet states that with secondary hardening 62+HRC can be easily reached, I can only confirm. While Carpenter clearly states that 204P should never be done in this range due to great loss of stain resistance.
I've never had stain/pitting problems with either folder of the two.
Truth to be told, a similar HT applied to S90V helped him gedding rid of chipping issues http://ferrumforge.com/?page_id=1001
That why I asked Ankerson to test his own M390 custom (if it has been oil quenched).

Ankerson, thanks for your tests, please keep on :)



@Alpha Knife Supply
Latrobe is now of Carpenter:
http://ir.cartech.com/phoenix.zhtml?c=64522&p=irol-newsArticle&ID=1575376
Crucible ownership: I was wrong. After bankruptcy Latrobe for a certain period of time distributed Crucible steels. I stand corrected.

CPM S125V: is it now produced again? I've been asking since 2009 to all of major EU knife steel purveyors without any luck. They told me it was out of production.
 
More out of marketing and into technical:

"Cruicible Steels utilize the Generation one process which was developed in the early 50's/60's if my memory serves me correctly. This Gen1 process by todays standards is not the most effective way to produce a Powder steel. The reason for this includes:
1. The powder is produced via an induction melting process which to the best of my knowledge is not protected from the atmposphere. This allows contaminants to enter into the melt. The melt is then top poured into a tondish. This is problematic as the "slag" is the first component of the melt to hit the tondish (as it floats ontop of the melt) and inevitably it finds itsway to the powder. The best efforts are made to prevent this which in itself is arcaic; a broom typr fixture is used to "brush" the slag back in an attempt to avoid it from entering into the powder making process.
2. Atomizing: in Generation 1 after the steel exits from the tomdish, it falls approximatly 3 stories through a nitrogen shroud. At the time this was the only known method for making steel droplets. Naturally these droplets would not be uniform in size and therefore, even before the HIPP-ing (Hot isostatic press) process, the steel would be at a distinct disadvantage.

Generation 2 Steels fixed the issue surrounding the cleanliness of the steel with respect to the slag through bottom pouring out of an EAF furnace (at the same time protecting the steel from the environment). However, at this stage the technology for controlling the droplet size was not available.

Generation 3, developed in the late 80's, early 90's (estimated) resolved the issue surrounding droplet size. Because of this, and because of cleanliness and a uniform microstructure, the Generation 3 method is significantly more advanced than the other two. because of this, there is a physical property imporvement of +-30% in the annealed condition across the board.
"
Credits to Graham Knight
http://www.sablade.com/forums/showt...lmax-M390-and-RWL-34&p=627&viewfull=1#post627
 
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I seriously doubt that a steel that has 30J at 61HRC (10V) or 12J at 61HRC (15V) will withstand the hard use a CPM-M4 at 63HRC (43J) will. Not to mention CPM-3V.
M390 properly HTd (see my other post) at 63HRC will have (by experience) enough edge holding to skin a couple of deers and >40J of toughness with added stain resistance.
But will 10V and 15V will hold an edge longer than CPM-M4, if they'll have a more conservative edge geometry to avoid chipping?

Nice to see S125V it is still available. Maybe I will make such a special order for my daddy's 80th birthday: he definitely needs a full tang letter opener ;)

I had a very costly Strider SNG in such a steel. It was with me in last summer trekking in Tuscany (near seashore). Microchipped and stained. Sold as such to a Strider nut friend of mine.
 
daberti said:
That why I asked Ankerson to test his own M390 custom (if it has been oil quenched).

Ankerson, thanks for your tests, please keep on :)
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It's at 62 RC and .006" behind the edge and 10 DPS.....

I have tested it more than a few times and it does well, just haven't ran it at 15 DPS for the current testing...
 
Ankerson said:
It's at 62 RC and .006" behind the edge and 10 DPS.....

I have tested it more than a few times and it does well, just haven't ran it at 15 DPS for the current testing...
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Thanks Ankerson for your reply. Agreed about not testing then :thumbsup:
 
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