Ranking of Steels in Categories based on Edge Retention cutting 5/8" rope

Twin Dog, Pretty sure that is a blade that I re-treated for you. I am very familiar with CPM M4 and have done several blades with it and also several other retreats without problems. Given the magnitude of the side load you described that kind of failure should not have happened. CPM M4 is pretty forgiving even a that hardness. I normally do my own CPM M4 blades at a final 65/66 with out problems. I can only speculate--as I am sure others here will-- on what happened. This is the only re-treat that I am aware of that had this kind of failure. I have done CPM S90V, and CPM S110V several times as well. I have quit doing re-treats more than a year ago since it is just not worth the risk and this is a good example of that. Phil
 
This type of break happened to me more than a dozen times in my short time tinkering with ht various type of steels (simple carbon through high alloy). Split/snap usually started with a crack at thin cross section (the edge in this case). The off-center indicate a slight warp, probably due to slight un-even grind, which put stress on the edge to started a few tiny cracks. I am curious to see to close-up pics for the 2 cracked surfaces of the small piece. I concur with Jim said, 64rc is not that brittle. I just retested my fixed blade m4 (5 sampling points), it's ~65.5rc, it can whittle dry oak fine even with very thin geometry.

...
There is a tendency for people to look for either the toughest steel ever known or for the steel that has the greatest wear resistance ever known -- usually without regard to the actual tasks a knife needs to perform. Here's a shot of a blade I had professionally hardened by a well-known expert. He took Benchmade's CMP M4 blade at 59 Rc up to 64 Rc. When I was putting the knife back together, the blade was a bit off center, so I tried adjusting it with just hand pressure exerted laterally against the blade. The blade was so brittle, that it shattered into three pieces. Wear resistance matters. So does toughness.

DSC01614.jpg

Jim - why re-ht high alloy steels is risky? I am sort of doing this many times for my usual ht routine. I employ multi-thermal steps in my ht, as long as keep edge and surface cracks from occurring, resulting blades usually turn out well.

daberti - assumptions may have been made that shipped production knives were hardened at low aust temperature, along with resulted carbide type population (m23c6 vs m7c3). Without knowing what all tradeoffs; yields; target buyers; etc... Knifenuts want red-line the performance, while executives want best bottom line ;) just can't have that if lack of buyers or too many returns/defects.

more rambling...

For high alloy steels, carbide type+size+distribution usually at odd with grain size. With PM boundary radius around 150um to 500um, there would be plenty of chance for some grain to grow large in spite of elements such as: Si, V, etc.. to prevent run away growth. Sporadic/spot of large grains constitute weak links in the matrix. So back to 'tradeoffs' gain vs pain.

Having yak above, one/batch-off ht from good custom makers probably way better than bulk factory production.

Edit: just saw Phil's post - if I have known ... I probably enjoy eat :foot: sandwiches than blathering my 2 newb cents.
 
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This type of break happened to me more than a dozen times in my short time tinkering with ht various type of steels (simple carbon through high alloy). Split/snap usually started with a crack at thin cross section (the edge in this case). The off-center indicate a slight warp, probably due to slight un-even grind, which put stress on the edge to started a few tiny cracks. I am curious to see to close-up pics for the 2 cracked surfaces of the small piece. I concur with Jim said, 64rc is not that brittle. I just retested my fixed blade m4 (5 sampling points), it's ~65.5rc, it can whittle dry oak fine even with very thin geometry.



Jim - why re-ht high alloy steels is risky? I am sort of doing this many times for my usual ht routine. I employ multi-thermal steps in my ht, as long as keep edge and surface cracks from occurring, resulting blades usually turn out well.

daberti - assumptions may have been made that shipped production knives were hardened at low aust temperature, along with resulted carbide type population (m23c6 vs m7c3). Without knowing what all tradeoffs; yields; target buyers; etc... Knifenuts want red-line the performance, while executives want best bottom line ;) just can't have that if lack of buyers or too many returns/defects.

more rambling...

For high alloy steels, carbide type+size+distribution usually at odd with grain size. With PM boundary radius around 150um to 500um, there would be plenty of chance for some grain to grow large in spite of elements such as: Si, V, etc.. to prevent run away growth. Sporadic/spot of large grains constitute weak links in the matrix. So back to 'tradeoffs' gain vs pain.

Having yak above, one/batch-off ht from good custom makers probably way better than bulk factory production.

Edit: just saw Phil's post - if I have known ... I probably enjoy eat :foot: sandwiches than blathering my 2 newb cents.

Pretty much for the same reason why you wouldn't double the time in the furnace when you HT the blade the 1st time.... ;)
 
Heat treats are complicated, and as we all know Phil is one of the best. I don't know what happened to this particular blade. It could have had an inclusion or a previous crack -- or even a particularly nasty stress riser from that thumb hole. But it was brittle, as can be seen from the three-part break. In any event, it was a good experiment. Phil was kind enough to make oven space for my blade. After I broke it, Benchmade replaced the blade for a small charge. All is good.

The only reason that I posted the photo is to illustrate that knife steels have to balance strength, toughness and wear resistance to support any given geometry and task. Harder may be better, or it may not. When we focus too much on just one aspect, we can get in trouble. We can end up with a single-purpose knife. Makers who serve a broader public, have to be wary of taking steel to the limit of any one particular trait.

I rolled a penny-sized section of a hollow ground AUS 8 blade just by chopping small branches. Wood grain can twist or turn in unexpected ways, putting incredible lateral stress on sections of the blade, which is what happened. If we heat treat a blade for maximum wear resistance, it's not going to be reliable for even light chopping. If we focus on the toughest steel in the world, we're not likely to end up with a knife that can cut with any efficiency.

This incredible thread that Jim has put together focuses on wear resistance. So we have a natural tendency to think that wear resistance is the most important aspect of a knife steel. We forget that as we increase wear resistance, we face the potential of weakening the steel it other important ways.
 
Heat treats are complicated, and as we all know Phil is one of the best. I don't know what happened to this particular blade. It could have had an inclusion or a previous crack -- or even a particularly nasty stress riser from that thumb hole. But it was brittle, as can be seen from the three-part break. In any event, it was a good experiment. Phil was kind enough to make oven space for my blade. After I broke it, Benchmade replaced the blade for a small charge. All is good.

The only reason that I posted the photo is to illustrate that knife steels have to balance strength, toughness and wear resistance to support any given geometry and task. Harder may be better, or it may not. When we focus too much on just one aspect, we can get in trouble. We can end up with a single-purpose knife. Makers who serve a broader public, have to be wary of taking steel to the limit of any one particular trait.

I rolled a penny-sized section of a hollow ground AUS 8 blade just by chopping small branches. Wood grain can twist or turn in unexpected ways, putting incredible lateral stress on sections of the blade, which is what happened. If we heat treat a blade for maximum wear resistance, it's not going to be reliable for even light chopping. If we focus on the toughest steel in the world, we're not likely to end up with a knife that can cut with any efficiency.

This incredible thread that Jim has put together focuses on wear resistance. So we have a natural tendency to think that wear resistance is the most important aspect of a knife steel. We forget that as we increase wear resistance, we face the potential of weakening the steel it other important ways.


Most of the knives listed in the Coarse edge section have gone through my full battery of testing..... Including the ones in the top percentage and none of them broke or chipped out.

Sure this thread is about edge retention, but remember the knives aren't exactly babied either, and that's not even going into the customs that aren't in this thread that have been tested the same way and went through my full battery of testing.

The rope cutting is only one part of the 3 test medias that I use, the other two are cardboard and wood.
 
This incredible thread that Jim has put together focuses on wear resistance. So we have a natural tendency to think that wear resistance is the most important aspect of a knife steel. We forget that as we increase wear resistance, we face the potential of weakening the steel it other important ways.

This is exactly what I tried to say. But there are two notable exceptions:
1)Elmax 1150°C/540°C 3x2h oil quenched where it reaches 43J and 63HRC
2)S90V 1180°C/540°C 3x2h oil quenched: Elliot Williamson states in his own site that the Matrix is much more stable and way less prone to chipping

Edit:
Summing up.
There is a balance for every steel, given the tasks it is called to fullfill, among mere hardness and toughness. And PM generation has a pivotal keyrole into this balance.
There are steels with roughly same PM technology, but with pretty different hardness responses given same HT temperature. I.e.: CTS-204P and M390.
This is to be known to properly judge their performances.
There is common consensus about, for instance, sharpening M390 not at a mirror finishing level. This is true with every production blade I tested with such a steel. This is NOT true with all of the knives made for me by Elliot Williamson and with the Zeus folder by Neels Roos. This is brought about by finer and spot on steel Matrix grain and carbide size and distribution, given the HT done in the optimal range (1180°C/540°C) with secondary hardening causing secondary carbides precipitation. Obviously enough with a slight trade off in stain resistance (counteracted by a very polished blade and cutting edge).

There are steels that are not tailored for a given task.
There are some medium-medium heavy use knives with S35VN, that are at 55-57HRC, just to mention an example. Should this be either achieved with low temp hardening or with high hardening/secondary range tempering, there will be a noticeable decay in stain resistance. In the first case wire edge would be probably an issue. In the second case probably not.
But, then, if there is a SS capable of achieving >40J at 62HRC (just as CPM-M4, which is well regarded for such tasks), why not going with this one instead?
I myself would never push M390 Beyond 62 or S35VN Beyond 60, for such a knife. Worst case it would be 3 HRC more than 57HRC.

I would never make a chopper in a SS, but I would use CPM-3V @60 maybe CPM-M4 at 62 (both passivated more than coated). There are more production blades properly HTd in 3V than ones in CPM-M4, though.
So M4 would be an option only in a custom.
I would definitely NOT make use of N690, which definitely lacks the required toughness. Despite of this some makers make use of it, eventually underhardening when a proven record of failures shows up. E.R. KH

For a serious skinner/fillet knife I would use S110V, 20CP, S90V: kinda fire and forget. Keeping 1-2 HRC lower than max, but always high austenitizing, to stain resistance effects (blood etc).

Let's add one more variable: SS with Moly =>than 0.8% but V less than enough to form carbides, are prone to form M23C6 Cr carbides if austeniting lower than roughly 1050°C, instead we'd prefer having harder M7C3 Cr carbides (or also M6C Moly ones on AISI 618 class). So we should raise (depending on air furnace or vacuum furnace to 1066°C or up to 1110°C). N690, AISI 618, CTS-XHP. More than this cryo is to be considered mandatory to minimize retained austenite, which averegely gifts you 2 more HRC with no loss in toughness.
I wonder how many production knives are done this way. Note: we would not push things to the limits, this way.

Above i mentioned CCT diagrams: http://www.matter.org.uk/steelmatter/metallurgy/7_1_2.html
This is a very simple example. Feel free to chose a different cooling rate (quenching media) and see the results yourself. Notably: which cooling rate allows for complete transformation of Austenite into Martensite.
You might need to add http://www.matter.org.uk to the list of sites' exceptions under Java control panel, Security Tab
 
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Glad you appreciated :)
Thanks

Elmax, M390 and S90V have a distint peak in second. hardening range. As far as Elmax is concerned it will be also the toughness peak. For the other two SS it will not, but you'll be very close to it. No need to Deep-cryo in this case as high temp tempering will minimize retained austenite anyway. Just three tempers instead of the mandatory two.

No hope we'll ever find this HT in production blades, buddy. And very few custom makers are willing to do this as well. To my knowledge and purchase Elliot Williamson and Neels Roos.
Yet for sure an M390 blade could at least be brought to 62HRC via vacuum furnace, decent overpressure quenching (5bar) and deep cryo. It would make a world of difference against the usual 60.5HRC.

Secondary hardening also has disadvantages from my understanding and reading.

From R. Landes.

Roman Landes said:
SH is used widely in the HT of high alloyed steels.
As it has been stated correctly before, there are advantages and disadvantages.

SH will occur in alloys that contain enough elements that contribute to SH such as Vanadin, Tungsten, Molybenum, Chrome etc so carbides can be precipitated.
Carbides contain carbon and other alloys in mostly rather complex chemical compositions.
In case of say 154CM, BG-42, you name it, the alloy precipitates chrome carbides and other carbides in the temperature range around 500-600°C.
Usually these alloys show a Secondary Hardening Maximum (SHM) around 520-560°C according to the autenizing condition and alloy contents.
Leaving a tough and wear resistant microstructure with high hot hardness and considerably reduced corrosion resistance.

So, for regular "tool-stuff" to hit the SHM is usually the name of the game.
But in our case it is not necessarily true for blades and knife edges just like Nathan stated.

There are 2 major disatvantages we run into with applying SHM to stainless tool steels.
1. You lower corrosion resistance.
This is based on the carbide precipitation.
The chrome and carbon was dissolved in the austenizing process.
Time and temperature determine how much chrome and carbon was dissolved from the primary carbides.
Getting the steel to the SHM to temper it, forces the carbon and Chorme to form secondary carbides.
The carbon takes out chrome from the matrix and thus lowers the chrome content dissolved in the matrix. Hence the stain resistance is affected to a considerable amount and corrosion resistance gets largely lost.

2. You lower the edge stability the SHM has several sequences (Processes) running parallel
a.) precipitation of secondary carbides (lowering the martensite hardness)
b.) decomposing of retained austenite (enhancing hardness due to the creation of virgin martensite.)
c.) coagulation of carbides (lowering the total hardness)
d.) tempering of martensite created at the quench (lowering the martensite hardness)
The superposition of all these effects result in the typical curves shown in tempering diagrams of those alloys affected.

In the end, this means, that in the SHM, the overall hardness is created by a specific ratio between the amount of precipitated carbides and the amount of primary carbides and the hardness of the martensitic matrix.
In the SHM the hardness of the martensitic matrix is more or less exchanged by the amount of secondary carbides precipitated while tempering.
Thus leaving a “relatively soft” thus lesser strong matrix with allot of carbides, both secondary and primary.
But, a lesser strong matrix will not contribute to the edge stability and the higher amount of secondary carbides will not contribute to edge stability, either.
Hence, SH will be leaving your edge with lower overall performance and lower corrosion resistance.

There are exceptions especially for High Speed Steels.
The extreme alloy content and the extra high austenizing temperatures create exceptionally stable retained austenite in those steels.
This austenite usually greater than 20% volume fraction can’t be substantially transformed to virgin martensite by cryo.
So a SHM treatment becomes inevitable for those specific alloys in any tool application.

From a fellow Bladeforum member who knows more about this than I do.

Are you asking a question or making a statement ?? Steels with substantial amounts of V, Mo, W will exhibit secondary hardening . Knife makers temper things like S30V at about 400F. The secondary hardening characteristic is of no real value to the knife.

----
Now, don't get me wrong, if a customer wants absolute wear resistance than secondary hardening has its advantages, but for the average Joe, I dont think they would care.

Bohler's Heat Treatment of Tool Steel 2012 document also talks about the secondary hardness advantages.

"Precipitation of secondary carbides
will occur when tempering highly
alloyed steel at a high temperature.
This will be detrimental to its corrosion resistance but will give to it
somewhat higher wear resistance.
"

---
One of the key things that they mention and what people tend to forget when chasing HRC numbers:

"Usually a certain hardness level is
required for each individual application of the steel, and therefore heat
treatment parameters are chosen to
some extent in order to achieve the
desired hardness. It is very important
to have in mind that hardness is the result of several different factors,
such as the amount of carbon in the
martensitic matrix, the microstresses contained in the material, the
amount of retained austenite and the
precipitated carbides during tempering.

It is possible to make use of different
combinations of these factors that
will result in the same hardness level.
Each of these combinations corresponds to a different heat treatment
cycle, but certain hardness does not
guarantee any specific set of properties of the material. The material
properties are determined by its
microstructure and this depends on
the heat treatment cycle, and not on
the obtained hardness."

---
At the end, as with everything else in life, everything is a give and take with regards to what you want and what you need to sacrifice. From what I have seen for most average Joe, buying a knife one of the key aspects for them is a highish HRC number and corrosion resistance.

For those that have not seen the tempering graphs with regards to M390 here it is from the M390 Marketing pdf.

M390TemperingSubZero_zpsc35f846a.jpg


M390Tempering_zps708c2f0b.jpg
 
That's not the problem, the problem was taking a blade that was already HTed and Tempered and running it through the whole process again to get it from 59 to 64 when the chemical changes have already happened the 1st time.....

Actually the changes are in physical structure.
 
Marthinius,
you mentioned "2. You lower the edge stability the SHM has several sequences (Processes) running parallel
a.) precipitation of secondary carbides (lowering the martensite hardness)
b.) decomposing of retained austenite (enhancing hardness due to the creation of virgin martensite.)
c.) coagulation of carbides (lowering the total hardness)
d.) tempering of martensite created at the quench (lowering the martensite hardness)
The superposition of all these effects result in the typical curves shown in tempering diagrams of those alloys affected.

In the end, this means, that in the SHM, the overall hardness is created by a specific ratio between the amount of precipitated carbides and the amount of primary carbides and the hardness of the martensitic matrix.
In the SHM the hardness of the martensitic matrix is more or less exchanged by the amount of secondary carbides precipitated while tempering.
Thus leaving a “relatively soft” thus lesser strong matrix with allot of carbides, both secondary and primary.
But, a lesser strong matrix will not contribute to the edge stability and the higher amount of secondary carbides will not contribute to edge stability, either.
Hence, SH will be leaving your edge with lower overall performance and lower corrosion resistance.

There are exceptions especially for High Speed Steels.
The extreme alloy content and the extra high austenizing temperatures create exceptionally stable retained austenite in those steels.
This austenite usually greater than 20% volume fraction can’t be substantially transformed to virgin martensite by cryo.
So a SHM treatment becomes inevitable for those specific alloys in any tool application.
"

Examples mentioned are 154CM and BG-42. None of them PM steels. None of them 3rd gen as Elmax, M390 or even 1st as S90V, which I mentioned explicitly.
Above I mentioned a thread at Sablade where you chimed in and received answers by Des Horn and Others.
I mentioned that M390 oil quenched overtakes CTS-204P by some margin (oil quenched and sale HT temps), retaining a very good toughness (>41J).
There is a study (above mentioned as well) that has proved that Elmax austenitized at a certain high temp and tempered in SH range reaches its best hardness (63) and toughness (43J).
Elliot Williamson states that once used high aust/SH finally took the very best out of S90V.
You can spot these alloys' composition and I can confirm that none of Elmax and M390 knives so treated in my ownership has ever shown any stain resistance issue whatsoever :)
Taken to the Alps, taken to Tuscany trekking near seashore.
I can confirm, on the other hand that I had a couple of underhardened Elmax blades poorly HTd and with a very poor edge finishing (grit) failing (stain). Four S35VN underhardened blades did the same.
The critical factor being too low austenitizing temps and probably to slow quenching timings.

Anyway, I've quite a bit of knowledge about S90V, Elmax and M390 and less about other steels, yet on SA Blade forums there is QUITE A BIT OF A KNIFEMAKER who made heavy duty knives for special navy commandos in RWL34 right with SH.
 
...
Examples mentioned are 154CM and BG-42. None of them PM steels. None of them 3rd gen as Elmax, M390 or even 1st as S90V, which I mentioned explicitly.

Please correct me if I am wrong but is the secondary hardening not affected by the alloy content regardless of the PM generation or if it is even a PM grade?

On another note. I am not against secondary hardening, I own quite a few blades with it and have good experience with the knives I own. I just want others to understand that though it can be done, there are trade-offs, as with everything else. Depending on what is important to the knife maker and the design the maker should alter the tempering accordingly.
 
Please correct me if I am wrong but is the secondary hardening not affected by the alloy content regardless of the PM generation or if it is even a PM grade?

On another note. I am not against secondary hardening, I own quite a few blades with it and have good experience with the knives I own. I just want others to understand that though it can be done, there are trade-offs, as with everything else. Depending on what is important to the knife maker and the design the maker should alter the tempering accordingly.

Marthinus,
how far with Moly, W and V content could you go without HIGH risks of low toughness AND/OR invisible micro cracks into the steel Matrix? That is why I mentioned PM.

A very good example about when SH is not adviced is CPM-3V (one of my most liked steels).

Let me talk a while about CPM-60V. I like it a lot, but there is a lot of dislikes around, about this steel.
General consensus is to keep it at 56HRC to avoid chipping. Underhardening again.
take a look at its datasheet
http://www.google.it/url?sa=t&rct=j...=3CT1DG8gyaAm63HmWHGx7Q&bvm=bv.71667212,d.bGE

At 58HRC 440C has the same toughness value of S60V at 56HRC (treatment A below).
But ...wait..here they are the HT choices:
A=Hardened 1850° F (1010° C), double tempered 400°F (205C)
B=Hardened 1950° F (1065° C), double tempered 400°F (205°C)
C=Hardened 2050° F (1120° C), double tempered 400°F (205° C)

From same datasheet the best news "PLEASE NOTE: Tempering between about 800 and 1000°F
(425 and 540°C) is not recommended. All martensitic stainless steels suffer from embrittlement when tempered in this range."
Now, REALLY Crucible guys? Are you quite quite sure? There are a number of such steels that counterprove right the opposite!

Martinus, following my reasoning, given that I mentioned above the HT for S90V, maybe using 1180°C/520°C even for S60V (so HA/SH combination) would greatly reduce retained austenite, maximize available C and Cr to stain resistance before tempering, minimize loss of stain resistance after SH and eventually give us heck of a blade.
I said maybe but I'm quite sure about it.
 
Daberti, could you loan one of those optimally heat treated knives to Ankerson for testing? You'd have to check if you have one in the correct size and thickness range for his test.
 
The past couple pages this has been me

83ca76335c3d944e99cd95e147612edc.jpg


Learning a lot though, thanks you guys!

I agree that there has been a serious thread drift here. I enjoy this thread and read it to see RESULTS, not to read other peoples theories on H/T procedures. I think that would be done better in another thread. Just my $.02.
 
Daberti, could you loan one of those optimally heat treated knives to Ankerson for testing? You'd have to check if you have one in the correct size and thickness range for his test.
I potentially could if only Italian customs wouldn't make me pay the back trip as brand new product importing.
Maybe we could find the way together.
Anderson, please chime in :)
 
I agree that there has been a serious thread drift here. I enjoy this thread and read it to see RESULTS, not to read other peoples theories on H/T procedures. I think that would be done better in another thread. Just my $.02.

Agreed, but bare numbers tell you knowing without knowledge of the optimal HT for a steel.
Having the HRC values associated with results help you a little bit more (and tell you about a Company HT policy). But it ain't the Whole story.
My $0.000001
 
Knowledge of the way a knife is H/T'd has nothing to do with how it actually cuts. A certain company's H/T procedure is what it is and you can't change it. Knowing how its done (good or bad) does nothing to change the way it cuts. That's the whole story.
 
Knowledge of the way a knife is H/T'd has nothing to do with how it actually cuts. A certain company's H/T procedure is what it is and you can't change it. Knowing how its done (good or bad) does nothing to change the way it cuts. That's the whole story.

Yep, that's how it really is..

They do what they do....
 
Knowledge of the way a knife is H/T'd has nothing to do with how it actually cuts. A certain company's H/T procedure is what it is and you can't change it. Knowing how its done (good or bad) does nothing to change the way it cuts. That's the whole story.

Yes, but in my case holds me away from that company and makes me save for a decent blade ;)
 
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