RAT vs. Busse?

[MORIMOTOM]

Besides, after using the heck out of it for a year or two, you'll be able to resell it for at least $300...Total cost of ownership: -$17 A RC6, OTOH, should cost you ~$110, you use the heck out of it for a year or two, and resell it for close to the same amount. Although the Busse required a "larger" investment, usage cost is not more than another brand.

Sure, this is ONE way to look at it; at the end, it's your money...do what you want :thumbup:

i can't see someone paying close to retail for a rat that has been used for two years.

why pay that amount when i can get one brand new from any number of on line distributors?

a used busse may or may not bring a profit depending on the market. but generally even users will sell for a premium relative to other brands.

availability determines value to some degree.

RAT (imo) has the best valued FB outdoor knives on the market.

You get an excellent knife AND the best warranty out there

As long as you are factoring price, RAT wins hands down.

rat does have a great warranty, though it is not something i have personal experience with. i have just read many of the glowing (and deserved) reviews here.

but perhaps we could remember that it was busse that set the bar to that level. for me, they are the standard by which customer service is measured.

re the knives: i only own an ontario rat 3 in d2, which i purchased prior to the rat line being available. as far as i can tell, it is very similar to the current model offered by rat, excepting the steel. it is well made and i believe a great value (i paid about $115 iirc).

i dont care for the sheaths. but im not the biggest fan of kydex. that said, it is a good quality sheath, and i am in the minority regarding my dislikes.

i dont care for 1095 steel. not that it is bad, i just prefer a steel that provides better corrosion resistance. it takes an edge well, and is relatively easy to sharpen. but i don't oil any of my blades, since most get used for food prep.

i dont care for coated blades. the entire rat line is coated, perhaps due to the steel choice. i must say i find it odd to market knives for bushcraft and use a steel that is lacking in its ability to resist corrosion. again, i am likely in the minority here.


initially, i avoided busse knives because of the sheath issue. i suppose it is something i have just gotten used to. i typically use the same leather bender for my sheaths, and don't mind waiting.

infi steel is not necessarily the best in any one category, ie, edge retention, toughness, etc. what it does offer is very good performance in nearly all categories, something few other metals can.

not only do i have many, many, choices of colored coatings, i also can get bare metal blades in either a satin or bead blast (double cut) finish.

additionally, i have many, many, choices of handle colors and often many choices for handle materials.

what i dont typically get, is the immediate satisfaction from my purchase. sometimes a wait may be up to a year for a model that appears available on the website.

good luck!

 

[kgd]

i dont care for 1095 steel. not that it is bad, i just prefer a steel that provides better corrosion resistance. it takes an edge well, and is relatively easy to sharpen. but i don't oil any of my blades, since most get used for food prep.

You are most definitely in the minority there 1095 is to bushcraft like bacon is to eggs. Its been used and is a time proven steel for that application. Rust is rarely an actual issue in bushcraft, although admittedly it is a perceived one.

I'm not getting all prissy, I just thought I'd comment on this part of what you said. Your post was great :thumbup:

 

[MORIMOTOM]

You are most definitely in the minority there 1095 is to bushcraft like bacon is to eggs. Its been used and is a time proven steel for that application. Rust is rarely an actual issue in bushcraft, although admittedly it is a perceived one.

I'm not getting all prissy, I just thought I'd comment on this part of what you said. Your post was great :thumbup:

it certainly is. many custom makers (koster comes to mind) use 1095 for knives designed for bushcraft.

it is just something i have never understood. perhaps there is tradition attached, perhaps it is because 1095 is otherwise a low maintenance steel.

i would think the cost of the metal is also a large factor.

but it would not be my choice for a knife of this type.

and since they didn't ask me, i normally keep this opinion to myself.



(btw, i think you quoted the wrong section.)

 

[BillCutting]

Dam, Lefty, thats what a mistress is supposed to look like! Mines a safe queen :thumbdn:, only because in these economic times I have to entertain the possibility that I may have to sell it.

That said, mistresses are made to be #*#ked!!!!!! And ##*ked hard!!!

 

[fishface5]

A lot of the Busse knives really aren't practical, but they are well made. But, the more I think about it, the more the RATs appeal to me. Honestly, they are every bit as nice as the Busse and kin lines and are much less expensive.

If people got out there and used there knives they would be really happy with how even the much cheaper knives out there perform(kabar, buck, camillus and on and on). Dare I say you couldn't tell the difference....

I gotta disagree here - it's in using the knives that you find out what quality actually is. Kabar is a fine knife, but it won't take the beating a Busse will. After a few multi-day hikes with each one may make the choice to trade weight for durability, ease of batoning, edge retention, etc. While a RAT is near as durable as a Busse, it becomes more of an issue of (1) personal comfort with one or another design (2) are you going to be chopping in a situation where you might hit something hard, in which case a Busse should withstand the abuse better & be easier to fix the edge.

I sold my big Busse choppers simply because the handle ergos never worked for me. I modified a Himalayan Imports knife to be my main chopper, and man does that thing fling the wood chips! However the edge takes a beating in the garden, where stones can lurk - the edge is nowhere near as durable as my Busse's were. Not sure if the HI is 1095, if not it's a similar hi-carbon spring steel.

Also - I concur with the other posters, from personal experience, that you can sell your used Busse knives for what you paid or more. I see no evidence of the same for RAT knives -- why pay full retail for a used knife when a new one is available for the same price from a dealer?

 

[Trace Rinaldi]

IMHO if you want a knife that really cuts things I would go with the RAT.. If you wanna entertain your friends with brick chopping Busse is the way... Just me...

 

[PayetteRucker]

I can buy 4 Rc5's for the amount most Busse's cost. pound for pound you get way more knife for the money, and considering 1095 isn't nearly as rust prone as most spyderco fans like to think (I used one as a saltwater dive knife for heavens sake), and the superb edge retention and durability of 1095 for rough use, I think you get more performance for the money out of a RAT. I'd like to see a side by side destruction test just to see how good this INFI really is.

 

[fishface5]

http://www.knifetests.com/KnifeTestsPage2.html

ask and you shall receive - it's a whole lot of video but you can watch Noss beat the holy crap out of a RAT & a Busse basic & there's no question which is the tougher knife.

 

[LeftytwoGuns]

Dam, Lefty, thats what a mistress is supposed to look like! Mines a safe queen :thumbdn:, only because in these economic times I have to entertain the possibility that I may have to sell it.

That said, mistresses are made to be #*#ked!!!!!! And ##*ked hard!!!

I created a couple of Busse converts on that night. Beer, Moonshine and Knifeplay. That's how I roll.

A couple of nights ago I brought my mistress out again, after about 5 glasses of wine and some beers. The next morning, when my wife found me passed out on the couch at 7AM she commented on how some of the trees, especially one very large one out back "look terrible" I gave them a beating with my mistress, lost a pair of sandals, and got a decent slice on my big toe. . . somehow... My mistress is a Bad MO FO

 

[Ramm9]

I can buy 4 Rc5's for the amount most Busse's cost. pound for pound you get way more knife for the money

As someone pointed out in one of these threads, you could also use the same logic and buy maybe 10 or 15 Mora's instead of the Rc5's....

I'd like to see a side by side destruction test just to see how good this INFI really is.

I would like to see that too. The same challenge has been made for the last 10 years so it's nothing new.

Jerry Busse has made it pretty clear over the years that he's willing.

"If you want to know how another maker's knife will compare to a Busse Combat knife ask the other maker to duplicate our tests. We will gladly duplicate their tests."

12-10-1999
"Know this, if anyone actually has a problem with their Busse Combat Knife they can rest assured that it is covered by our warranty. If anyone doubts our performance claims they can watch us duplicate and often surpass our performance claims LIVE in front of an audience! Not just on video. We are the only production knife manufacturer who duplicates these tests live. We’ve done them in Atlanta, Cleveland, Nashville, Columbus, and Las Vegas. We will continue to do them LIVE for as long as our insurance carrier allows! Any manufacturer who thinks it’s all hype about our knives is invited to duplicate their own tests LIVE! There are lots of look alikes, but so far there have been no perform alikes. We’ll be at the BLADE Show in Atlanta, come on down and watch it happen in person."

"why we invite and encourage all makers and manufacturers to do their own performance testing on their own knives in "LIVE" demonstrations at the BLADE show. It's their reputation on the line, therefore they should be the ones who do the testing."

A little searching will show threads like this ...none of the companies have risen to the challenge as far as I know.

Randall vs. Busse
Mad Dog vs. Busse
SOG vs. Busse
Strider vs. Busse
Brend vs. busse
Reeve vs. Busse
Fallkniven vs. Busse
CS vs. Bussee

You can't "blue" Infi, you can poke it around in a campfire and they say it will still hold a temper. Maybe that has something to do with Infi cost.

"All in all we do a little over 80 hours of heat treating and tempering. The dry atmosphere with long cycle times has really paid off for us in the performance department"

"As for INFI and temperature extremes, it is amazing. INFI is tempered at nearly 950 degrees. It does not begin to lose any significant hardness until it is held above 1050 degrees for a considerable amount of time. I have to believe that it would need to be extremely mishandled in order to do any noticeable damage.

Most of the simpler high carbon steels (of which INFI is NOT a member) can be drawn down in temper in a matter of seconds if the temperature hits above 500 - 800 degrees."

At about $250 and up, there's probably a good value there somewhere for a Busse, if you like the "look".

The Rat Cutlery "look", to me, is very similar to Busse except for the talon hole. A side by side comparison photo of the most comparable models would be interesting to see.

For those who may not have seen it, here is a listing of Busse offerings over the years. Clicking on the model name brings up a photo......

www.bussecollector.com/catalog/

 

[Ken44]

IMHO if you want a knife that really cuts things I would go with the RAT.. If you wanna entertain your friends with brick chopping Busse is the way... Just me...

So you really think a Busse won't "really cut things"???

I have several thinner Busse's(.125 to .150) that will out cut any Rat. As a knife maker you should know a given knife in same width and edge in Saitn will "really cut things" better than a Coated blade.


BTW- some talk how 1095 is better since often used in Bushcraft. In the Bushcraft world it is thought that expensive knives shouldn't be used, and most all are made with a good but less expensive steel. You won't see high dollar steels used for Bushcraft, but its not because there not good enough.

 

[philwar]

Quite is surprising, based on numbers, 1095 at 56-58 HRC(RAT Specs) is stronger than INFI which is 58-60...
I've had a couple 1095 knives at similar hardness and never got impression that it was all that strong 56-58HRC.

It is surprising because - in my experience - it is not true. I have an Ontario RAT5 and it is a very good knife, but inferior to the SAR4 it compares closest to of the Busses I own. It has less edge retention and suffers damage more easily than the Busse.

I don't have any experience with RAT Cutlery products but by all reports they are great knives. It would seem though that RAT have a following that easily outdoes the Busse crowd (of which I am one) where fanboism is concerned. No offense to the more realistic RAT owners out here, but according to many others, RAT knives outperform Excalibur itself. Let's keep it real. 1095 is a fair steel but no matter how good the HT, it can never compare to the higher-end steels of any Bussekin knife, let alone INFI.

If money is not (much) of an issue, and you're only buying the one knife, get a Busse. Better yet, go cheap and get an INFI Scrapyard Scrapper 5 LE.

 

[philwar]

I like my o busse and I love my rats. I think they are just totally different. For me the rats are great users because I find busse to be just too big and chunky for hiking. They are heavy and overall large. They are build like tanks but carry like one too.

Nonsense. They come in all shapes, sizes, widths and thicknesses.

There are some smaller busse knives but I don't like theeir designs much.

Ah. So they're just not your taste then? Fine, but that's personal.

 

[imaginefj]

http://www.knifetests.com/KnifeTestsPage2.html

ask and you shall receive - it's a whole lot of video but you can watch Noss beat the holy crap out of a RAT & a Busse basic & there's no question which is the tougher knife.

The Busse is what? 2 or 3 times thicker?

 

[imaginefj]

If money is not (much) of an issue, and you're only buying the one knife, get a Busse. Better yet, go cheap and get an INFI Scrapyard Scrapper 5 LE.

Some say that SR101 holds an edge better, it also costs alot less than the INFI version.

I think the S5 is a good buy, I think the S5 LE is overpriced, cheap for INFI maybe BUT overpriced IMho.

 

[fastcamo]

I have a question also, I "heard" that if you mod a knife from Busse the warranty is void. that being said, I have received a few blades with the edge so thick, that they bounced more that cut when chopping, the fix is thinning the edge out and making it sharp, so by doing that now i'm in the modding category and my warranty is void??

as far that this topic of rat vs busse, they both are nice, just use whats you like, comfortable, affordable or whatever tastes suit you.

 

[Josh K]

I have a question also, I "heard" that if you mod a knife from Busse the warranty is void. that being said, I have received a few blades with the edge so thick, that they bounced more that cut when chopping, the fix is thinning the edge out and making it sharp, so by doing that now i'm in the modding category and my warranty is void??

as far that this topic of rat vs busse, they both are nice, just use whats you like, comfortable, affordable or whatever tastes suit you.

Last I heard Busse replaced the knife of a member who used it to chop through some heavy chain. They termed it "tough love."

I don't think thinning out your edge would even come close to voiding the warranty.

 

[ron_m80]

American made - Both
Warrenty - You break it , we get you a new knife = both
Steels - Both
Good people - both

Ease of Availability - Not Both.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

I have a question also, I "heard" that if you mod a knife from Busse the warranty is void. that being said, I have received a few blades with the edge so thick, that they bounced more that cut when chopping, the fix is thinning the edge out and making it sharp, so by doing that now i'm in the modding category and my warranty is void??

as far that this topic of rat vs busse, they both are nice, just use whats you like, comfortable, affordable or whatever tastes suit you.

if the mod has affected the heat treat, it is possible it will void the warranty.

many of the busse forumites routinely mod their knives. anything from handle mods to edge thinning to completely changing the shape and thickness of the entire knife, are regular occurrences.

i have yet to hear of a situation where busse combat failed to honor their warranty.

i broke a micarta scale by throwing an anorexic badger at a tree, something that is generally discouraged. the scale was replaced free of charge and i got a nice sharpening as well.

 

[MORIMOTOM]

Ease of Availability - Not Both.

really?

there is an entire subforum in the exchange here with busses in all shapes and sizes.

you may not like the prices, but there is little question of the availablity of many of the products.