RAT vs. Busse?

[Andros]

This may be a point to cause argument but...

If a rugged knife for camp/bush use was needed, would you recommend a Busse or a RAT Cutlery to someone who only wants one of the two and not both?

Is one manufacturer preferred, and which specific model?

What is the reason for your choice?

Both seem to be great knives.

It is like asking whether you should buy a TOYOTA or a LEXUS, the TOYOTA being RAT Cutlery and the LEXUS being Busse Combat. Both are reliable brands but clearly if you can afford it the LEXUS is a better car overall. SAme thing with RAT Cutlery and Busse Combat.

 

[Andros]

From my experience with both:

Corrosion resistance: INFI, not even close.

Wear resistance in a variety of materials: Pretty much equal.

Edge stability: RAT. Neither seems to chip, but INFI dents and rolls much easier, and this gets a lot worse if the edge is thinned.

Overall edge retention (wear resistance and edge stability combined): RAT.

Resistance to breakage, impact toughness: INFI.

What type of tests have you done that actually prove that a RAT Cutlery knife offers a better edge stability / retention than a Busse Combat knife? Which knives in particular were used? Were they both sharpened at the same angles? If so, which angle were they sharpened at?

 

[Andros]

IMO your wrong on the first part. I don't know one person that has Busse's that doesn't use at least one, many use all they have. Many do collect, which is a great past time that I have long done with many types/brands of knives, but also use many of my knives(also worked with knife for living).

And the "ridculas amount of money" isn't really correct either. For instance at this years Blade show I got a 6" bladed busse in Satin with hand shaped BP for $283 with tax. A great deal for the qaulity of knife.

I've been a huge knife and gun nut for over 30 years and top notch qaulity is what i choose to spend my money on. Some people will never understand why some middle class(on poor side of that in my case) will spend so much on knives when we drive around in a truck with 200,00 miles, put off buying cloths for self, and sacrifice in areas just so we can buy knives. But there are many that do just that for something they love and are passionate about. Yes, I'm a knife nut, and maybe to much of one, but I'm happy with it.


to the OP...the two knives you mention are at two very diff price points. So it all depends on what you want in a knife for what you pay. The RAT's are a Great knife for the price! Busse is a Great knife for the price!
I feel the Busse steel, designs, options, qaulity build, and esp the comfort of the handle over a RAT is worth the extra $ to me. But in all reallity the RAT will handle most any task I could think of.
Just depends on how YOU want to spend YOUR money.

Very well said:thumbup:!

 

[Andros]

I like my o busse and I love my rats. I think they are just totally different. For me the rats are great users because I find busse to be just too big and chunky for hiking. They are heavy and overall large. They are build like tanks but carry like one too. There are some smaller busse knives but I don't like theeir designs much.

Busse's have offered certain models that are neither big nor chunky for hiking: the Satin Jack Tac, the Badger Attack Tac, the HG55, are some knives that are exceptionally fit for hiking.

Rats carry well and function well. For the price you cant go wrong. But busse are just something special. If you hold one youll know what I mean. Kind of like a chris reeve I guess (at least to me)

That is a very nice way of putting it!

 

[Andros]

If people got out there and used there knives they would be really happy with how even the much cheaper knives out there perform(kabar, buck, camillus and on and on). Dare I say you couldn't tell the difference....

It all has to do with the use of the knife: if slicing meat is what you are referring to, then I will agree that one can hardly tell the difference. On the other hand, if wood chopping and batoning is what we talk about, then this is a different ball game. There, it is extremely easy to tell the difference.

 

[Andros]

but perhaps we could remember that it was busse that set the bar to that level. for me, they are the standard by which customer service is measured.

Exactly. I have personal experience from the Busse customer service / warranty and I would say that it is as good as one can ever get.

i dont care for 1095 steel. not that it is bad, i just prefer a steel that provides better corrosion resistance. it takes an edge well, and is relatively easy to sharpen. but i don't oil any of my blades, since most get used for food prep.

1095 is very prone to rusting if the blade is not coated. On the other hand it is easy to re-sharpen and it takes a decent edge.

infi steel is not necessarily the best in any one category, ie, edge retention, toughness, etc. what it does offer is very good performance in nearly all categories, something few other metals can.

Very good comment:thumbup:! This is exactly what makes Busse knives so desirable.

 

[Andros]

You are most definitely in the minority there 1095 is to bushcraft like bacon is to eggs. Its been used and is a time proven steel for that application.

Basically the term "bushcraft" has its origings with the British. The typical scandi-grind "bushcracft knife" made by the vast majority of British knifemakers is made out of O1 tool steel not out of 1095.

 

[Andros]

I modified a Himalayan Imports knife to be my main chopper, and man does that thing fling the wood chips! However the edge takes a beating in the garden, where stones can lurk - the edge is nowhere near as durable as my Busse's were. Not sure if the HI is 1095, if not it's a similar hi-carbon spring steel.

So far I have had very good experience with khukris from Himalayan Imports. Fantastic choppers if you spend the time to give them a proper edge. The steel used on them is 5160 spring steel. I don't think that 1095 can be classified as spring steel. That said one needs to emphasize the need for proper heat treating: I have had handmade knives made out of 5160 break pn me while chopping wood, nothing that supposedly shouldn't be able to handle!

 

[kgd]

Basically the term "bushcraft" has its origings with the British. The typical scandi-grind "bushcracft knife" made by the vast majority of British knifemakers is made out of O1 tool steel not out of 1095.

Technicality of the term. Outdoor knife...1095 been used for a century. O1 has very similar properties to 1095. I have several knives of both steels and it is very difficult to tell a real world difference. I've used INFI on knife like chores also. The simple fact of the matter is, INFI, 1095, 5120, O1, A2 - they are all difficult to tell real differences in common applications of related to wood working and camp type chores. A key is that they have been heat treated properly. Both Busse and Rowan are masters of the heat treat.

Your analogy of the Busse = Lexus and the RC=toyota is fitting on the price point, but arguably not so on performance as it relates to outdoor activities. Maybe not chopping concrete blocks, but that type of extreme toughness does not translate itself to need in an outdoor setting like batoning wood, chopping wood, prying fatwood, cutting notches, sharpening steaks, cutting food, etc. The things us guys in W&SS like to apply a knife.

 

[Ken44]

. Maybe not chopping concrete blocks, but that type of extreme toughness does not translate itself to need in an outdoor setting like batoning wood, chopping wood, prying fatwood, cutting notches, sharpening steaks, cutting food, etc. The things us guys in W&SS like to apply a knife.

Yes Busse makes ceratain knives that will chop through a concrete block with the tip, even with a .187 BATAC.

But what many seem to be unaware of is the fact Busse has made plenty of thinner models at .125, .150, .170, .187, etc.., all the way up to the fatties.

They make several models that do excell at outdoor settings like batoning wood, chopping wood, prying flatwood, cutting notches, sharpening stakes, cutting food, etc. And any of the things you guys in W&SS like to apply a knife.

As I said before, expensive knives has never been viewed as Bushcraft type knives. A less expensive knife, with a less expensive steel(usually O1), that will be easy to sharpen has been the standard bushcraft knife. INFI is also easy to sharpen, with better qualitys in other areas as well, but much to expensive to be considered a "bushcraft knife" in most circles. Its not because it wouldn't be as good or better at those task though.

 

[noss4]

Your analogy of the Busse = Lexus and the RC=toyota is fitting on the price point, but arguably not so on performance as it relates to outdoor activities. Maybe not chopping concrete blocks, but that type of extreme toughness does not translate itself to need in an outdoor setting like batoning wood, chopping wood, prying fatwood, cutting notches, sharpening steaks, cutting food, etc. The things us guys in W&SS like to apply a knife.

Is W&SS some secret society were only you guys do this.? Nonsense !! You would be surprised what you can do with Busse in the wilderness. You can do everything you mentioned with a Busse plus much,much more. Just because they possess extra toughness and strength does not render them ineffective at camp tasks. I personally want all I can get out of a knife. Extra toughness and strength is a positive not a negative.

To the OP both are excellent knives. Just choose one or both and I'm sure you will be a happy camper. :thumbup:

 

[magikbullet]

hi guys, great forum!

kgd, do you happen to have any pictures of your rc6 and sod together? I'm looking for a large survival knife and these two are on my short list. trying to track down a sod to potentially buy is really frustrating unfortunately, any tips there? thanks!

 

[Andros]

Your analogy of the Busse = Lexus and the RC=toyota is fitting on the price point, but arguably not so on performance as it relates to outdoor activities. Maybe not chopping concrete blocks, but that type of extreme toughness does not translate itself to need in an outdoor setting like batoning wood, chopping wood, prying fatwood, cutting notches, sharpening steaks, cutting food, etc. The things us guys in W&SS like to apply a knife.

Busse's are tougher than any commercially made knife out of 1095. I don't know about you but when I go to the outdoors I want a knife that can take as much as I have to throw at it. BTW, who needs to chop concrete blocks? "Batoning wood" is an abstract term. One can baton with a puukko (I have done that myself) a 3" branch and get the job done. This is totally different though from having your blade jammed in a 7" log. That's where you need everything a knife has to give.
You have mentioned a number of duties that not all of them require the same type of knife: batoning wood, chopping wood even prying fatwood (not that much though) require a heavier knife, whereas cutting notches, sharpening sticks, cutting food can be very well taken care of with a Mora. So are you advocating that a Mora can replace a chopper? Also, what do you mean by saying "the things that us guys in W&SS like to apply a knife"? Care to elaborate?

 

[CaptInsano]

The Busse is what? 2 or 3 times thicker?

Umm, no. Not even close. I'm not sure what kind of screwy rulers they use where you're from. The RAT is a little over 3/16in thick and the Basic 9 is a little over 1/4in. So at most the Busse is maybe 1/3 thicker, not 3 times thicker. You must have put the decimal in the wrong place. :jerkit:

 

[kgd]

Is W&SS some secret society were only you guys do this.?

Yes we are a secret society with a public forum. Why don't you come on by? Learn the secret handshake and everything Clearly I touched a few nerve on my statement and admittedly it sounds pretty arrogant. Just as arrogant as all the claims about the magic that INFI is. However, let me offer out the peace branch and invite you and Andros to W&SS, post with us more often, and educate us about all the "much more" stuff that INFI can do. Perhaps we can all benefit from a the further discussion.

Pics for MagicBullet. As you can see the SOD is quite a bit bigger than the RC-6 in profile and thickness. Of the two, the SOD is a much better chopper but its blade heavy balance makes it awkward for fine tasks. The RC-6 is a rather poor chopper, but is excellent at fine tasks and working with the tip. If chopping is your game, then the SOD is definitely the better knife.

The Scrapper 5 is also worth while considering as an all around knife. Actually, the S5 is a better all round camp knife than the SOD I think. Between the RC-6 and S5, I think I prefer the RC-6. I modified my scrapyards to my tastes by removing the guard and the thumb ramp. The end product is a knife that I can choke up better and for the SOD, I found this greatly improved the fine control ability of the knife. Mainly because I can put one finger in choil and another one on the hilt (where the guard used to be) and get a nice neutral balanced hold. This makes the SOD much better suited as a camp knife for my purposes.

 

[magikbullet]

thanks for the pics kgd, they really help. I'm thinking what I might do is get a sod for heavier tasks and something like an rc4 for the lighter ones.

oh, and any tips from the knife afficionados on how to track down a sod? do I just have to watch the for sale boards like a hawk?

 

[kgd]

thanks for the pics kgd, they really help. I'm thinking what I might do is get a sod for heavier tasks and something like an rc4 for the lighter ones.

oh, and any tips from the knife afficionados on how to track down a sod? do I just have to watch the for sale boards like a hawk?

Check out workingknives, a dealer that occasionally deals with Busse and Scrapyard knives. You can google them. In order to avoid "deal spotting", I leave it at that. But I think you will be pleased by the effort

A SOD and RC-4 would be a great combo! As would a SOD and a falkniven F1, as wood a SOD and a barkriver 4" blade.....Oh well, I'll even through it out there - a SOD and an Active Duty would be a great combo!

 

[rpn]

thanks for the pics kgd, they really help. I'm thinking what I might do is get a sod for heavier tasks and something like an rc4 for the lighter ones.

oh, and any tips from the knife afficionados on how to track down a sod? do I just have to watch the for sale boards like a hawk?

you can post in wanted to buy and seek a user to save more too....:thumbup:

 

[Ankar Sheng]

I have a question also, I "heard" that if you mod a knife from Busse the warranty is void. that being said, I have received a few blades with the edge so thick, that they bounced more that cut when chopping, the fix is thinning the edge out and making it sharp, so by doing that now i'm in the modding category and my warranty is void??

as far that this topic of rat vs busse, they both are nice, just use whats you like, comfortable, affordable or whatever tastes suit you.

According to Mr. Busse if the modifications are the cause of the damage, it wont be covered. So if the edge chipped out because you thinned it, that wouldn't be covered.

There was a thread about some knife that was sharpened to 20 or 30 degrees inclusive and suffered edge stability issues. There was a lot of debate about the actual angle, but at any rate it wasn't anything you wouldn't see on a typical puukko style knife. Anyway, according to Busse they considered it to be "drastically altered" and "paper thin", apparently INFI doesn't have the same edge stability at low angles that you can expect from many other steels.


To the OP, this just seems like an odd, pointless question. You're asking for a comparison of things that are in entirely different pricing leagues, with no specific criteria to compare them with. You want a rugged knife? Well, both are plenty rugged for anyone who understands how to use a knife. The Busse is more rugged though, so get one of those cause money obviously isn't the issue here, or the busses wouldn't even be a consideration.

 

[Ken44]

According to Mr. Busse if the modifications are the cause of the damage, it wont be covered. So if the edge chipped out because you thinned it, that wouldn't be covered.

There was a thread about some knife that was sharpened to 20 or 30 degrees inclusive and suffered edge stability issues. There was a lot of debate about the actual angle, but at any rate it wasn't anything you wouldn't see on a typical puukko style knife. Anyway, according to Busse they considered it to be "drastically altered" and "paper thin", apparently INFI doesn't have the same edge stability at low angles that you can expect from many other steels.
.

You can thin the edge and its still covered. Only if you use a power tool that may affect heat treat is the warrranty void.
And yes they have as good or better edge stability than most steels.

Your talking about ole Nozh with that thin edge,lol. He had some formula saying it was 30degree, then said that was wrong, Then did it with clay and measured that and said he was wrong, only to come back and say he measured wrong and he was in fact right afterall. It was much thinner than 30. I would not take his advice IMO.
Jerry still told him he to just send it in and he would fix or replace it under warranty, but he would measure edge angle and post in room. Pretty sure Nozh never sent it back.