- Joined
- Sep 9, 2003
- Messages
- 2,361
Each year there is an influx of fresh faces looking for advice on how to get started or what to do to have a knife at the end of their troubles, along with them always come the inevitable beginner questions regarding mystery metal; rebar, lawnmower blades, truck springs, files, rasps, railroad spikes, bed frames (that was a new one that still has me shaking my head), etc… Many will entertain these ideas but inevitably some wet blanket will slam Pandora’s Box shut with advice to eliminate the unknowns and make life easier by using known steel.
I write this to implore folks to assess these well meaning steel snobs with due consideration, since they are in fact well meaning. Most folks say they just want a steel to practice with, some of the guys that are telling you that you will learn more and develop more skills by knowing what the steel is have been “practicing” for more than a quarter of a century. They aren’t part of a conspiracy with the steel companies or steering you towards failure or financial ruin for their own amusement. The fact is that they have been there and done that and are honestly telling you the way they made the most progress and would like to see the same for you. Isn’t that why we are here? (Well most of us, there are those rare individuals who are here for the sole purpose of spreading chaos to get their jollies).
Advising against unknown metals has nothing to do with elitism or being part of the “known” steel club in order to be accepted, it is about saving you from a false economy. Once again these guys have been there and done that and really care about producing the best blade (foremost a cutting tool) they can, and they know from hard earned experience that “free” salvaged steel can be the most expensive steel to work with. They have learned the hard way that time is our most precious commodity, and mystery metal squanders it at an unacceptable rate. Very few knives will ever elicit the same pride in a knifemaker as that very first one, the feeling of accomplishment is unforgettable and I am certain that the "new steel" guys would like nothing better than to give you the gift of knowing that knife was the best steel and heat treat possible to you at that time.
If you just want to practice and not ruin good steel doing it, may I suggest mild steel? Many old pros will use mild steel for outdoor demos in the bright light in order not to waste good stock. Are you still with me or are you finding that little voice in your head saying “wait a minute, mild steel will not make a decent knife”..
... Well...!?! Where do you draw the line? If indeed all you wish to do is practice and the final knife will not be a sold and you don’t want to waste good steel, why not mild stock? It is very cheap, and forges quite easily so it is great for learning hammer techniques. There is also a serious contradiction in the scrap for practice approach, in that you have already conceded that you are opting to sacrifice a “lesser” material over the better one, effectively undermining any follow up position of scrap being just as good as new bars.
We could do an entire thread about the hazards of not knowing the chemistry of the steel and that is the most common point addressed as it is the most obvious, but of equal importance is the heat history of the steel. Even if we know that those old objects are 1095, what has been done to them in the past that we need to undo? Are there things we cannot see, that we can’t undo? Not only do we know that our new bar of CRA 1095 is .96% C, .45%Mn, .03%P, .05%S from the chemistry it came with but we also know it was rolled in a way that we know what to expect in decarb, and that all that has been done was annealing. Knowledge is power, and we have all the knowledge we need right there to plan the process to make the best knife we can. That knowledge is more valuable than any tool in making our knife. All this wasn’t free but it can be gained for less than $35!!
Also, please, please, please be aware that all those lists that say files are W2, saws are L6, springs are 5160 etc… are the unfortunate result of smiths misinterpreting or reverse reading metallurgical charts of typical steel applications based upon properties. These charts can be found in almost any metallurgy text and were never intended for use in identifying steel based upon the objects. They were meant to give examples of applications where certain properties, based upon chemistry, would be desirable. Manufacturers can, and do, use any steel they like and the determining factors for steel choice is cost and compatibility with their operation, not listed applications in a book.
Perhaps not all the steel snobs input is altruism for the original poster. They may see that you are really intent on using granddads saw blades for knives and are content to let you do your own thing. There are two types of inquiries on these forums, ones seeking any answers they can get and those who have already made up their mind and are merely seeking validation. The steel snobs my recognize that the poster has already talked themselves out of trying new steel, but their conscience compels them to at least present the case for known steel for all the lurkers and newbies that will read the thread hoping to get advice from folks they assume have the experience to guide them. If you look at it this way the new steel guys have an obligation to at least put the other side out their whether the original poster wants it or not. But in the long run they still care!
Apathy got the better of me some time ago after having hours of my time wasted trying to help folks troubleshoot heat treating issues with L6 only to find out they had been using old saw blades all along. But God bless the folks I see here that still have the compassion to point out the pitfalls of scrap items, they risk the grief of being called “steel snobs”, “elitists” and all the other hassles for their input because they hope to help anybody they can with their pointers. I am certain there is no malice in their efforts so ignore their advice if you will, but at least recognize the good intentions behind their posts.
Thank guys, you got more heart than I do anymore.:thumbup:
P.S. The tone recently has been quite nice, but I bring this up due to all those times in the past that it inexplicably got nasty.
I write this to implore folks to assess these well meaning steel snobs with due consideration, since they are in fact well meaning. Most folks say they just want a steel to practice with, some of the guys that are telling you that you will learn more and develop more skills by knowing what the steel is have been “practicing” for more than a quarter of a century. They aren’t part of a conspiracy with the steel companies or steering you towards failure or financial ruin for their own amusement. The fact is that they have been there and done that and are honestly telling you the way they made the most progress and would like to see the same for you. Isn’t that why we are here? (Well most of us, there are those rare individuals who are here for the sole purpose of spreading chaos to get their jollies).
Advising against unknown metals has nothing to do with elitism or being part of the “known” steel club in order to be accepted, it is about saving you from a false economy. Once again these guys have been there and done that and really care about producing the best blade (foremost a cutting tool) they can, and they know from hard earned experience that “free” salvaged steel can be the most expensive steel to work with. They have learned the hard way that time is our most precious commodity, and mystery metal squanders it at an unacceptable rate. Very few knives will ever elicit the same pride in a knifemaker as that very first one, the feeling of accomplishment is unforgettable and I am certain that the "new steel" guys would like nothing better than to give you the gift of knowing that knife was the best steel and heat treat possible to you at that time.
If you just want to practice and not ruin good steel doing it, may I suggest mild steel? Many old pros will use mild steel for outdoor demos in the bright light in order not to waste good stock. Are you still with me or are you finding that little voice in your head saying “wait a minute, mild steel will not make a decent knife”..
... Well...!?! Where do you draw the line? If indeed all you wish to do is practice and the final knife will not be a sold and you don’t want to waste good steel, why not mild stock? It is very cheap, and forges quite easily so it is great for learning hammer techniques. There is also a serious contradiction in the scrap for practice approach, in that you have already conceded that you are opting to sacrifice a “lesser” material over the better one, effectively undermining any follow up position of scrap being just as good as new bars. We could do an entire thread about the hazards of not knowing the chemistry of the steel and that is the most common point addressed as it is the most obvious, but of equal importance is the heat history of the steel. Even if we know that those old objects are 1095, what has been done to them in the past that we need to undo? Are there things we cannot see, that we can’t undo? Not only do we know that our new bar of CRA 1095 is .96% C, .45%Mn, .03%P, .05%S from the chemistry it came with but we also know it was rolled in a way that we know what to expect in decarb, and that all that has been done was annealing. Knowledge is power, and we have all the knowledge we need right there to plan the process to make the best knife we can. That knowledge is more valuable than any tool in making our knife. All this wasn’t free but it can be gained for less than $35!!
Also, please, please, please be aware that all those lists that say files are W2, saws are L6, springs are 5160 etc… are the unfortunate result of smiths misinterpreting or reverse reading metallurgical charts of typical steel applications based upon properties. These charts can be found in almost any metallurgy text and were never intended for use in identifying steel based upon the objects. They were meant to give examples of applications where certain properties, based upon chemistry, would be desirable. Manufacturers can, and do, use any steel they like and the determining factors for steel choice is cost and compatibility with their operation, not listed applications in a book.
Perhaps not all the steel snobs input is altruism for the original poster. They may see that you are really intent on using granddads saw blades for knives and are content to let you do your own thing. There are two types of inquiries on these forums, ones seeking any answers they can get and those who have already made up their mind and are merely seeking validation. The steel snobs my recognize that the poster has already talked themselves out of trying new steel, but their conscience compels them to at least present the case for known steel for all the lurkers and newbies that will read the thread hoping to get advice from folks they assume have the experience to guide them. If you look at it this way the new steel guys have an obligation to at least put the other side out their whether the original poster wants it or not. But in the long run they still care!
Apathy got the better of me some time ago after having hours of my time wasted trying to help folks troubleshoot heat treating issues with L6 only to find out they had been using old saw blades all along. But God bless the folks I see here that still have the compassion to point out the pitfalls of scrap items, they risk the grief of being called “steel snobs”, “elitists” and all the other hassles for their input because they hope to help anybody they can with their pointers. I am certain there is no malice in their efforts so ignore their advice if you will, but at least recognize the good intentions behind their posts.
Thank guys, you got more heart than I do anymore.:thumbup:
P.S. The tone recently has been quite nice, but I bring this up due to all those times in the past that it inexplicably got nasty.
