Re-examining the steel snobs.

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jdm61 said:
I may be part of the group that is made up of the ultimate steel snobs. That being the people who run around and find hidden caches of steel which is no longer readily available like W2 or 1084 or specific formulations like John Deere load shaft 5160:D
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You forgot O2 Joe.....who's got the O2? Man...I'm jonesin' for some O2..... Oh wait...that's junkie, not snob... :D

-d
 
I made over 2000 knives from saw blade steel before I became a 'real knifemaker' :)
I didn't know what kind of steel it was, but I did learn how to make a good knife from it.

Known steels are easier to work with and should be recommended but
wont always guarantee a superior blade :)
 
Don Hanson III said:
Phil, I should add that I was young and very energetic,
and this was over about a ten year period :)
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And they were mostly Panhandle redneck fishin' knives, right?;):D Don, did you ever think there would come a day where you would be doing this full time and yet only be making a 1/4 of the number of knives per year that you did back then as a hobbyist and be getting 20-40 times as much money per knife? :eek:
 
While I'm a freak about heat-treating... the engineer in me NEEDS consistency and repeatability.... I've gotta say Greg brings up an interesting point.

I made my first several out of files... And I am doing okay now-a-days :)

While the devil's advocate would point out that my first several could have been much better had I known more about what I was doing and used known steel. :)

I have been an advocate of known materials, but I did get three big-rig drop springs from a friend. He had the catalog which clearly stated they were 6150, and a quick call to the company confirmed the composition of their springs. So that was a known, unknown material :p ;)
 
I have plenty of strong counter points to the scrap steel defenses being offered, but to delve into them would take this thread off topic, and as you can see now that those same old point and counter points have surfaced here, it really will get us nowhere. There are some folks who insist on control over the process and maximizing results, and there are those who’s focus is more into the artistic or creative end and simply enjoy hours of relaxation in working with their hands. Neither side is going to give much here. My point was to get folks to recognize that the guys who point out the benefits of using known materials over scrap are not being jerks, they really do care and are offering sincere advice, and already in this thread emotional descriptions are being projected on them that serve no purpose but to belittle their efforts.

Perhaps some of the frustration that may show through in their posts, is due to the fact that eventually they will be asked for input on how to heat treat an old lawn mower blade, or to help figure out what is going wrong. The heat treat is simple- get it hot (perhaps until the magnet stops sticking) and plunk it into the liquid of your choice, and that is about the best we can offer under the circumstances, a single lined sticky at the top could handle it all. Trouble shooting what could be going wrong is another matter entirely, and next to impossible since the variables have now extended to any previous person who could have handled the steel, and with a chemistry that is a guess at best.

I too started out using scrap and my life improved when I did myself the inexpensive favor of buying some predictable steel. I also made countless mistakes in heat treating and suffered other setbacks in my solitary method of learning. I have been there, I have done that, I could simply say that I survived the practice so why not let them work through it as well, or I could share the benefit of my experience and save them some trouble. If we insist on allowing all the new guys to repeat all of our trial and error, why are we here anyhow? Sure we do some socializing but I also thought the idea was to help others with our input.

Delbert, your points are worth noting. I get more consistent results and highly predicable heat treatment with my damascus than even my mono-steel work, but I am even picker about the materials that go into it than my straight steel. If I have a problem with time wasted on a single steel that didn’t work out I definitely will not tolerate throwing away a damascus steel blade for the want of $5 worth of predictable steel. I am very particular about matching my steels so that I can heat treat them both effectively.

Also there is a huge difference between “the best that can be done” and “the best you can do”. One may well be impossible and is certainly impossible to prove, the other just seems to the be most logical, reasonable and realistic goal we could set for ourselves. I personally don’t recall ever saying “I think I would like to do only half as good as I can do with this one”, and I never presumed to think I accomplished the best that could be done.
 
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My first couple were made from brand new Nicholson files, I still have most of them, fortunately the heat treat info I got worked pretty well for them, then I started buying O-1 and FOLLOWING THE HT INSTRUCTIONS and it worked really well (I was a stock remover then, but I recovered when I found a hammer in my hand 'D ) then I started forging and worked out a reliable process based on brand new Woodings-Verona crowbars, and since it was brand new single source mystery metal I was able to work out a reliable process, then I was introduced to the wonders of Aldo's 1084, and 1095, (I keep 5160 for swords too) and now the only time I will forge mystery metal is for party tricks 'cause it just breaks people's heads when you turn a crowbar into a knife in front of them

-page
 
Greg, Tai and the other "recycled steel" guys make the usual valid points. I did say that I started by using recycled materials. I did say that after several failures in the steel due to stresses from their previous "life" I turned to using known steels. I do make spike letter openers and have made rebar knives for some buddies that did concrete work.

Most of this is a semi-pointless census of angels on a penhead anyways. People will use what they will, people will get bent out of shape at "steel snobs." This reminds me of some of the stupid baseball umpiring mechanic arguments we used to get in. The 2 step fair versus perpendicular to throw at 1B. 80% of the freaking calls using the perpendicular position were 2 steps fair anyways.... :confused: just something to argue and chest beat over and a reason to scream at rookie umpires during training.

If all you have is mystery steel then fine use it. If you just want to piddle around and do what you can with what you have, fine use it. As for me I'll use known steels and the heat treat process that works for me and the tools I own.
 
Hats off to the "snobs" (and no, I don't consider any of you actual snobs) AND the mystery-steel guys. I've learned a bunch from all of you, which is the whole point. There's enough info here on the forum that a reasonably intelligent person can decide for themselves what's best for them.
 
By definition, the several hundred pounds of hex rod I "found" in a buddy's SCRAP pile is junk steel. It spectographed out to be 1076.
 
birdog4 said:
By definition, the several hundred pounds of hex rod I "found" in a buddy's SCRAP pile is junk steel. It spectographed out to be 1076.
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Sighhhh, there's a difference between having several hundred pounds of the same steel and having a small random piece to heat and beat..... never mind, I don't know why I'm even typing a reply.... you guys are right, I'm wrong for buying steel. I'm heading out with a bucket to start walking up and down the road looking for rusty metal.
 
I've avoided this thread (beyond reading it), but thought I would make one post in defense of the "steel snobs".

The standard reply from those who defend mystery steel is ,"I did it and it worked for me.", or " I've done it for years, and it worked for me."

That may be true, but ,will it work for others? Will they have the same steel source...or the same equipment.....or the same experience to meld these two into a good blade? While using a known steel won't guarantee a good blade, it certainly may eliminate one of the biggest variables.

I would agree that most smiths could make their 1001st blade out of a tried and tested mystery steel and get good results. I think the other side would have to agree that a new smith, who has never make a knife, would not be able to tell good steel from bad, nor have the experience to know what the steel was telling him while working it.

The better second source steel arguments have been pressed by those who pointed out that the steel they used was recycled but they had properly researched the make-up and content. If you know (really know ,not suspect) what the steel is, then it is not a mystery steel.

A common statement is that ,"Blacksmiths/my Grandpa/John Q. Smith/etc. didn't have anything but recycled plow /saw/bearing/etc steel, and he made 10,000 knives. OK, how is that pertinent to the discussion that modern known steels are a better way to start? These forefathers had no reliable suppliers, no internet to get advice, and had to develop their own techniques (and usually build their own equipment). They also made $1.25 an hour ,or less. Is that the advice we want to give new smiths?

Now ,in defense of the steel snobs:
Most posts that end up in a steel war are posted by newbie smiths who ask a question about what would be a good steel to start with.
Or the post is something like, "Is a lawn mower blade a good steel..." ; " Can I make a knife out of rebar....."; or,"I found this piece of steel out in the alley (It looks sort of like a bed frame)...."

For good reason, we don't usually suggest that a smith start out on a 100# power hammer and make a damascus billet. We try to give the most even path to getting started with the fewest pitfalls - Basic equipment.....Basic (but complete) knowledge of the process.....and basic reliable steel. The rest will come with time and skill.

I will always advise anyone who asks me, to use the three pillars:
1) Use a Known steel
2) Learn and understand the heat treatment process
3) Start simple and work up to complicated

The shortest path to these three pillars is:
1) Start with a basic eutectoid steel, like 1080/1084, from a reliable source. Stick with that steel until you understand it well.
2) Before purchasing/finding the steel -gain basic knife making knowledge by reading books and studying the HT, knife making process, and basic metallurgy online and in places like this forum .Your Gramp ( and me) never had these advantages.
3) Practice, practice, practice. A drop point hunter is a good knife to start on.

Stacy
 
Added to the above:

I have the greatest admiration for the smiths on this forum -

Tai Goo can make a wonderful knife out of many things....and they are all good knives as far as I can tell.

Raymond Richard is the king of farm steel. He can turn a hay rake or buggy axle into a stunning Bowie.

Ed Fowler can work 5160 and 52100 better than than most anyone.

Nick/Will/Don/( and many more)...... They all know how to do it with whatever they have available.

These chaps are some of the best out there. There is no denying their skill and experience. They didn't get that way overnight....and they are still trying to improve.

Hats off to them for posting advice and sharing their knowledge. It is the mix of types that make this forum great.
Stacy
 
Farmer Phil said:
If you're a steel snob because you only use known store bought alloys...Are you, then, a steel slob because you enjoy recycling, you're not pursuing a knife making career nor the path of hard science??? Frankly, I don't wish to be either, but like working with both.

Hi, I'm Phil, and I'm a slob about being a snob. Or is the other way around?
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Yeah, I think we're basically of the same mind on this one.

Recycling steel has been around a long long time, probably as long as steel itself. It's a tradition. Most of my students at the college and my private students were/are interested in it and in learning how to get the most out of it. It seems to be one of the main draws to bladesmithing. I will try to help them the best I can,...part of that being, making them aware of the possible pitfalls and drawbacks... of course.

Yes, and with the state of the world economy, dwindling natural resources, global warming etc... we will probably see a lot more recycling steel in the years to come... So, rather than try to discourage people from it, why not try to help them? Besides, some people get a lot of enjoyment from it.

I don't think anyone can logically prove that one approach is better than the other for all people. It really just depends what you want to do and how you want to do it,... what your circumstances are etc... I personally like doing it both ways and a blade from recycled steel is better than no blade at all. :)
 
O.K.
One more thing. I think there is overuse of the term RECYCLED. Industry recycles hundreds of thousands of tons of steel every year. If you think by reusing a bit of scrap steel you are "helping out" in some way, forget it. Try not drinking bottled water, that will help out more.
I make a yearly run to take all of my scrap to the local steel processing facility. Last fall they were paying $300 a ton. Normally it is $100-$150 and I usually get my gas money for the trip and lunch out, but this time I had some left over.
Yesterday I got an email from a local who works in the local gas fields offering me some cable in trade for a knife. I'm going to tell him "no thanks" because now I make my own cable damascus out of O-1.
I made quite a few cable damascus knives when I started out, and if you want to make knives out of cable or some other scrap steel thats fine. I do this for a living now, I have 4 girls and a wife who depend on me and my work.
If you are a hobbyist with lots of time on your hands and you want to play with some scrap for practice, thats fine, if you are serious about becoming a knifemaker, join the club and become a steel snob.
My name is Del and I'm a steel snob.





From recycle-steel.org
STEEL RECYCLING RATES
Steel is North America's Number #1 Recycled Material. Each year, more steel is recycled than aluminum, paper, glass and plastic combined!

Scrap has become the steel industry's single largest source of raw material because it is economically advantageous to recycle old steel into new steel. In light of this, steelmaking furnaces have been designed to consume steel scrap.

In fact, in the past 50 years, approximately 50 percent of the steel produced in this country has been recycled through the steelmaking process. Thanks to the steel industry's impressive history of recycling, a wide variety of collection programs exist to recycle steel products.

All of these programs tap into the steel recycling infrastructure, a well-established network of more than 2,000 ferrous scrap processors and more than 70 end markets. This steel recycling infrastructure, which has grown and matured over the years in its efforts to meet the steel industry's demand for steel scrap, is the reason today's steel recycling efforts actually supersede those of the past.
 
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I get tired of hearing some of the newbie posts about recycled steel too. Too often they take a piece of "mystery steel", make a blade from it and then wonder what it is, how to heat treat it, or if it's even possible. You really need to determine those kinds of things before you try making a blade from it! It usually takes research and testing in advance... So, you need to take as much of the mystery out of it as you can, first. :)

I think mystery does have it's allure, and it can be fun and interesting to try and solve.
 
jdm61 said:
And they were mostly Panhandle redneck fishin' knives, right?;):D Don, did you ever think there would come a day where you would be doing this full time and yet only be making a 1/4 of the number of knives per year that you did back then as a hobbyist and be getting 20-40 times as much money per knife? :eek:
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Joe, that was Redneak fishing, hunting and kitchen knives:)

And No, I had no idea. I was having fun and making enough $$ to eat beans almost every day :D

Kevin and all, this is a good discussion!
 
I am glad almost everyone coming to an agreement on this. I started out thinking that the advice to get it non magnetic and stick it in oil was how you did it. This place straightened me out quick. I notice several posts by those who use or used recycled steel with success. I also notice that almost everyone of them that had success used a large quantity of the SAME material to achieve it. If you use saw steel to make 2000 knives it is no longer a mystery steel to you. If you use John Deere cultivator disks to make all your knives it is not a mystery steel. Same goes for a bunch of the same brand files. If you were to get the spring set off a 1967 Ford 2 ton truck and get the manufactures specs or have it analyzed or you have the knowledge and ability test it and make some test knives, it would no longer be a mystery steel and you would have enough for hundreds of blades. To someone with loads of steel experience and knowledge a unknown steel could be classified. But, it is not worth the time and effort for enough to make 1 or 2 knives. If I came across a large quantity of a steel I suspected to be quality blade steel, I would have a sample analyzed. Hence no mystery. If someone wanted a knife made from grandpas plow I would make them a knife, IF they clearly understood that I would not be able to guarantee maximum performance from the knive due to the unknowns of the steel. In that case the performance
of the knife is secondary to the sentimental value of such a knife.

One of the main points of my long winded addition to this thread is this: The new guy asking about what steel to use has not got the experience or ability to correctly classify a piece of steel, has no way to adjust the HT or even conduct solid testing. He probably isn't setting on 500# of a steel. In order to get the most out of his initial knife making experience he needs a success. The best way to that success is a piece of know steel and if he is doing the HT a known simple steel like 1084.
Jim
 
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