Re-stocking fees....sound off here !!

[brandoak]

Thank you :thumbup:

Suggestion?

At this point you are in touch, or about to be with KC, correct? You've lain your case as well as you're going to here. It's just rehash from here on with you wasting a lot of effort and time attempting to justify yourself to the baiters. Don't take their monkey. Leave it on THEIR back.

You're gonna keep getting the snide remarks. Ignore them. You owe no one here an answer to anything. They're going to keep gnawing on you like the minnows that suck on my leg hairs when I'm trying to fish a shallow stream and have to keep kicking away. You've seen evidence of that with what they attempt at me.

Why don't you give it a few days now...look back through your posts here, compose your points to be made when you talk to KC. Get a away for a while and clear your head.

Obviously, most here are at least sympathetic to your predicament. The base issue is exposed now and being debated. It's about all you can do.

You probably feel you need a shower after being in this mess, as a few of us do, so why not go grab one, pour a cool colitas, and clear your head for a while?

I think you'll have a satisfactory outcome with KC. And btw, be sure and post the results here eventually, OK?

 

[ursamajor]

Alright. I have read through this thread, and the previous thread, including KC's response. First of all, to all those asking for pictures. Please please please explain to me how you accurately take a photograph of smelly packaging, and a gritty action, and have it clearly expressed in the photograph?

I agree with the OP 100% here. Even with KC's own meticulously worded (and many eyed proof read...no doubt) response, the restocking fee was a tool to combat secondary market resellers, and looky loo's. The OP never gave even a hint of being either, so their own professed motives for the restocking fee, are not applicable here.

A knife with a gritty action is easily remedied by most of us. However, in this case, the routine act of disassembling and cleaning up the knife would have voided the warranty. Moreover, for a nearly $2k, a knife had better be 1000% flawless in EVERY perceivable way, or it is not worth the asking price. A gritty action, or even a marginally uncentered blade, play, lock rock, uneven grind, etc etc, is a fatal, unforgivable flaw. Customers in that price range, are going to demand perfection, period. If that level of OCD is too much for KC to be willing to deal with, then they need to not be in the high end knife selling business.

As it stands, I won't be doing anymore buying there, I will also direct everyone of my friends and family who talk knives (and guns) with me, to make their Cutlery purchases elsewhere, and why. And I thank the OP for the heads up. Sucks that he got screwed, but at least I can learn from his misery.

 

[AntDog]

*sigh* why bother. This is a dead horse at this point.

Dude should've Ordered from another place if he didn't like the terms. Once he accepted the terms and placed the order and received the knife, he should've took pics of the knife to rub in KC's face. Maybe he should've contacted Rockstead. But he didn't.

And that's it. What's done is done.

 

[Mikael Andersson]

No pocket knife is worth $1800... Yes you could have solid gold side scales encrusted with tiny diamonds but please stop overpaying for knives and be a part of bringing the whole knife collecting business down towards more solid ground.

 

[LaneMeyer]

One thing I'm curious about is KC said that they were on the fence about whether to credit the OP or charge him a fee. I'm wondering what about the knife exactly were they on the fence about? There seems to be some obvious issues about the knife that may or may not have been a defect(s).

 

[LaneMeyer]

Alright. I have read through this thread, and the previous thread, including KC's response. First of all, to all those asking for pictures. Please please please explain to me how you accurately take a photograph of smelly packaging, and a gritty action, and have it clearly expressed in the photograph?

I agree with the OP 100% here. Even with KC's own meticulously worded (and many eyed proof read...no doubt) response, the restocking fee was a tool to combat secondary market resellers, and looky loo's. The OP never gave even a hint of being either, so their own professed motives for the restocking fee, are not applicable here.

A knife with a gritty action is easily remedied by most of us. However, in this case, the routine act of disassembling and cleaning up the knife would have voided the warranty. Moreover, for a nearly $2k, a knife had better be 1000% flawless in EVERY perceivable way, or it is not worth the asking price. A gritty action, or even a marginally uncentered blade, play, lock rock, uneven grind, etc etc, is a fatal, unforgivable flaw. Customers in that price range, are going to demand perfection, period. If that level of OCD is too much for KC to be willing to deal with, then they need to not be in the high end knife selling business.

As it stands, I won't be doing anymore buying there, I will also direct everyone of my friends and family who talk knives (and guns) with me, to make their Cutlery purchases elsewhere, and why. And I thank the OP for the heads up. Sucks that he got screwed, but at least I can learn from his misery.

No pocket knife is worth $1800... Yes you could have solid gold side scales encrusted with tiny diamonds but please stop overpaying for knives and be a part of bringing the whole knife collecting business down towards more solid ground.

A video could have shown gritty action and nasty packaging. It captures sight and sounds.

I agree, that the materials in pocket knives in no way warrant the astronomical price tags. We are treating knife makers as famous artists. Is it good or bad, justified or not? I don't know. But is a knife worth as much as a car? It's difficult to wrap your mind around that.

 

[ursamajor]

A video could have shown gritty action and nasty packaging. It captures sight and sounds.

I agree, that the materials in pocket knives in no way warrant the astronomical price tags. We are treating knife makers as famous artists. Is it good or bad, justified or not? I don't know. But is a knife worth as much as a car? It's difficult to wrap your mind around that.

Uhm a video showing a gritty action? In that price range, gritty is anything other than smooth as oil on glass. You won't hear it, only feel it. And I still have not seen legit smellovision yet. Maybe someday. A $2k pocket knife should have an action out of the box that is so smooth, that not a soul on the planet earth should be able to feel even the slightest of feedback at any point in the travel. Absolute perfection. Anything short of that, and it is a defective knife. Knives in that price range are to be perfect, even under a microscope. You can't judge it like you would a Spyderco, Benchmade, or even a CRK. It needs to be significantly better than Sal's or Chris' best, to the most discerning eye. If Rockstead does not meet that lofty standard, than they do not deserve to be at the price they are asking. But they are. With that, the knife is defective if you can feel anything in the travel. It is the Princess and the Pea to the highest degree.

 

[LaneMeyer]

Uhm a video showing a gritty action? In that price range, gritty is anything other than smooth as oil on glass. You won't hear it, only feel it. And I still have not seen legit smellovision yet. Maybe someday. A $2k pocket knife should have an action out of the box that is so smooth, that not a soul on the planet earth should be able to feel even the slightest of feedback at any point in the travel. Absolute perfection. Anything short of that, and it is a defective knife. Knives in that price range are to be perfect, even under a microscope. You can't judge it like you would a Spyderco, Benchmade, or even a CRK. It needs to be significantly better than Sal's or Chris' best, to the most discerning eye. If Rockstead does not meet that lofty standard, than they do not deserve to be at the price they are asking. But they are. With that, the knife is defective if you can feel anything in the travel. It is the Princess and the Pea to the highest degree.

I recently ordered a set of skateboard bearings and they were very loud when in motion. These were high quality bearings and I thought it very odd. I emailed the manufacturer who said they should be very quiet and suggested I contact the retailer to resolve the issue. I emailed the retailer who requested video of the problem. The video captured the sound of the bearings in motion, which sounded similar to a rain stick. If the knife was gritty, then video should be able to capture the sound of the grit. Microphones are very sensitive. Touch is not the only sense that can capture such vibration.

As far as a 2k knife needing to be absolute perfection.. I agree with you there. For 2k I would expect pure butter. Especially when you're talking about two small slabs of titanium sandwiching a piece of steel. If it can't break dance it better at least have some decent razzmatazz and dazzle.

 

[PURPLEDC]

I would not be happy with a knife that was not up to snuff for $1800 and then get dinged for almost a c-note for restocking.

I would have, however, taken pictures to help bolster my position that the knife was not acceptable to help the merchant understand my position.

If I were the merchant, I would take and share pictures of the knife as it was returned, with close-ups of the areas that the purchaser said were showing poor quality and or defects.

Aside from that, all that is left is the bickering from people who just can't let someone else have the last word, of which there are many on this forum.

best

mqqn

Now wait a damn minute........

 

[Gastonknife]

This thread is getting to be absurd. Let's summarize this; buyer purchases expensive knife from dealer knowing the restocking fee is policy. Gets the knife and is not happy about some claimed quality issues. Does not bother to communicate with dealer prior to just sending it back (major problem in my book). I always contact the seller about any issues (when it happens) and we communicate about what to do. If they wants pics etc that is ok with me. This seems to always work to a positive outcome. Anyway, dealer gets it back looks at it and sees not issues? Buyer has no pics etc. dealer has policy buyer agreed to, and in fact 5% is not a high fee for restocking an item. Ok I myself do not like the idea of a "restocking fee" but I understand why they exist. I consider that when I buy. I guess the issue here is because it was a high dollar knife, it ended up being $90 or whatever exactly. Live and learn: if you don't like the policy don't buy. If you do encounter a problem have the decency to communicate with the seller first. Was there a problem with the knife, we have no idea (no proof offered). Buyer did not handle properly and now wants to publicly drag dealer's name in the dirt. Not cool in my book. If there is something I missed my apologies, but this thread gave me a headache because there are so many pages of blah, blah, off topic stuff, etc.

 

[PURPLEDC]

By evidence, you really mean pictures, right?

There's evidence everywhere here. The written and spoken word is accepted to be evidentiary too you know...world-wide.

But not conclusive. Many would call it hearsay. A defendant in this case has incentive to lie. I'm not saying he did, but the potential is there. In most cases of law defendants aren't taken at their word as being fact. They need witnesses. If witnesses cant be provided many times photo or video evidence would be beneficial to the person making a claim. In other words most times sworn testimony has more merit if the person speaking it doesn't have a vested interest in a particular outcome.

Off subject but your post made me think of the terms people agree to for yahoo messenger, web e-mail sites, etc. without ever reading a word of it.

If we think the subject being discussed here has dark potential, wait til these people find out what all they signed away without even reading it. That pales in comparison to this minor stuff.

Negligence does not excuse ignorance. In other words just because you neglect to read the terms and conditions of an agreement doesn't mean you can claim to be ignorant of the implications of that agreement. To agree to anything contractually without first reading and understanding it lies solely on the person doing the signing.

 

[mqqn]

Now wait a damn minute........

Take it to W&C pal!

best

mqqn

 

[PURPLEDC]

Take it to W&C pal!

best

mqqn

So now you're video taping me without consent? You are lucky there is no audio buddy!

 

[HappyDaddy]

It never fails to amaze me how some folks around here can needlessly complicate a situation. This one is so very simple. Brandoak bought a very expensive knife with which he was immediately dissatisfied. He returned it and was unhappy with the restocking fee. He expressed his dissatisfaction. KC has explained its position that it disagrees. TaDa! Demands that he should have taken pics, produced videos, called KC before returning the KC, sent it to Rockstead, blah, blah, blah, are ludicrous. He sent the knife itself to back to KC. They were always going to evaluate the return based on the condition of the knife they got back. What Brandoak said on the phone, in an email, showed in a pic or video, would be 100% meaningless to KC. He wasn't happy with the quality for which he paid $1,800. KC thought it was a perfect knife. End of story.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Alright. I have read through this thread, and the previous thread, including KC's response. First of all, to all those asking for pictures. Please please please explain to me how you accurately take a photograph of smelly packaging, and a gritty action, and have it clearly expressed in the photograph?

I agree with the OP 100% here. Even with KC's own meticulously worded (and many eyed proof read...no doubt) response, the restocking fee was a tool to combat secondary market resellers, and looky loo's. The OP never gave even a hint of being either, so their own professed motives for the restocking fee, are not applicable here.

A knife with a gritty action is easily remedied by most of us. However, in this case, the routine act of disassembling and cleaning up the knife would have voided the warranty. Moreover, for a nearly $2k, a knife had better be 1000% flawless in EVERY perceivable way, or it is not worth the asking price. A gritty action, or even a marginally uncentered blade, play, lock rock, uneven grind, etc etc, is a fatal, unforgivable flaw. Customers in that price range, are going to demand perfection, period. If that level of OCD is too much for KC to be willing to deal with, then they need to not be in the high end knife selling business.

As it stands, I won't be doing anymore buying there, I will also direct everyone of my friends and family who talk knives (and guns) with me, to make their Cutlery purchases elsewhere, and why. And I thank the OP for the heads up. Sucks that he got screwed, but at least I can learn from his misery.

Well the person in question also stated the knife had a "casting line" in the spine of the blade. We know this not to be the case and that what he was seeing was a line created by a ground swedge into the spine of the knife. There was also complaints about the stop pin and the inside of the handles where he felt pieces were missing. Its only after another member asked if he documented any of these defects that he claims that 75% of his gripes weren't really of any concern to him. At this point its only the stiffness (and not any of the things that actually could be caught on camera) of the pivot that concerned him. If I were a business owner reading that I would immediately think it was buyers remorse. When you state a whole bunch of problems, and then someone asks if you took pics and you redact your statement and now your only complaint is something that cant be proven it seems odd. Especially given the whole "cast line" thing. As for the grittiness? Many times disassembly isn't needed as the gritty action is actually caused by something in the path of the detent as the blade swings. This does not require disassembly to remedy. Not that is should need to be remedied in the first place but we aren't talking anything that wouldn't be part of general maintenance.

 

[Gastonknife]

It never fails to amaze me how some folks around here can needlessly complicate a situation. This one is so very simple. Brandoak bought a very expensive knife with which he was immediately dissatisfied. He returned it and was unhappy with the restocking fee. He expressed his dissatisfaction. KC has explained its position that it disagrees. TaDa! Demands that he should have taken pics, produced videos, called KC before returning the KC, sent it to Rockstead, blah, blah, blah, are ludicrous. He sent the knife itself to back to KC. They were always going to evaluate the return based on the condition of the knife they got back. What Brandoak said on the phone, in an email, showed in a pic or video, would be 100% meaningless to KC. He wasn't happy with the quality for which he paid $1,800. KC thought it was a perfect knife. End of story.

I do not think that communication with the dealer b4 just sending it back (with none) is meaningless. It normally means a great deal. It's a best practice. In this case, with a private seller, on eBay, etc.....it is simply the right way to do business.
On and on thru through hundreds of threads in this forum it is often the missing link that causes a situation to become an issue. I won't go into the who's right or wrong. It just comes down to who one believes. Which is more credible. There is no real proof here about the actual condition. I personally would have no issues dealing with KC.

 

[HappyDaddy]

I do not think that communication with the dealer b4 just sending it back (with none) is meaningless. It normally means a great deal. It's a best practice. In this case, with a private seller, on eBay, etc.....it is simply the right way to do business.
On and on thru through hundreds of threads in this forum it is often the missing link that causes a situation to become an issue. I won't go into the who's right or wrong. It just comes down to who one believes. Which is more credible. There is no real proof here about the actual condition. I personally would have no issues dealing with KC.

Nonsense. KC was always going to makes its determination on whether to charge the restocking fee (the only issue here) based on their opinion of the condition of the knife as it existed when it was back in their hands. Whether the buyer expressed his views before, during, or after sending it back, or had pics or videos out the wazoo, is meaningless. I have no issue with KC making its own determination in this way, and it's what the buyer agreed to, essentially. But, that's always the way it's going to work.

 

[kaotikross]

I dunno, but my feeling is:

$1800? No way am I spending that kind of cash unless it's in person, and I've checked out the item prior to any agreement. If that means I won't get "item x" because it's unavailable locally, oh well. Surely there was a local knife dealer who could have gotten the Rockstead for you, and then if there's an issue, since the local dealer is "the retailer", there wouldn't be a mess because what retailers say is generally honored by manufacturers. Your local dealer would have sent it in, and made it right, and i can bet without any "restocking fee". This is why you "buy local". if there's a problem you can look a person in the eye and get it resolved, rather than some form e-mail that gets sent to 50 people a day. You can also pay in cash, or a cashier's check, and it's hard to charge your credit card if they don't have the number. A local dealer would have seen the problem, in front of you, contacted the company, and got er' done.

 

[Spinny]

Nonsense. KC was always going to makes its determination on whether to charge the restocking fee (the only issue here) based on their opinion of the condition of the knife as it existed when it was back in their hands. Whether the buyer expressed his views before, during, or after sending it back, or had pics or videos out the wazoo, is meaningless. I have no issue with KC making its own determination in this way, and it's what the buyer agreed to, essentially. But, that's always the way it's going to work.

There's certainly some truth to this statement. The question here is if the knife is received back in flawless condition, would they ALWAYS apply the restocking fee? Personally I think the answer is no. I think it's case by case. If the customer is dissatisfied with the knife for whatever reason and requests an EXCHANGE, would they apply the restocking fee? If the customer asks for a STORE CREDIT intead of a refund, would they apply the restocking fee?

Asking for an exchange tells the seller "I like the knife, but I want one that doesn't have these issues....". Asking for a refund says "I don't like the knife, it has these issues, but at the end of the day I just don't like the knife."

Now I can't speak for the OP but I have the impression that within a few minutes of handling the knife he was simply overall dissatisfied with his $1800 purchase and wanted his money back...not an exchange...not a store credit. A refund. So in that sense you are correct, it's up to KC to make the determination of whether or not it's defective, and nothing else really matters. I personally have never owned a Rockstead, so I can't say what's typical or atypical of their quality. I don't think the OP has either. But KC has certainly handled plenty of Rocksteads, so I'm confident they know what constitutes a defective knife. I'd just call it a $90 lesson.

 

[PURPLEDC]

Nonsense. KC was always going to makes its determination on whether to charge the restocking fee (the only issue here) based on their opinion of the condition of the knife as it existed when it was back in their hands. Whether the buyer expressed his views before, during, or after sending it back, or had pics or videos out the wazoo, is meaningless. I have no issue with KC making its own determination in this way, and it's what the buyer agreed to, essentially. But, that's always the way it's going to work.

I don't think anyone is debating whether pictures would have resulted in him getting charged the restocking fee or not. But pictures of any defects in a knife gives the customer evidence of his claims. When you send a knife back to the dealer without such proof you are at the mercy of their judgement. Still its all a moot point considering the person in question redacted his complaints about anything that could have been shown in a picture. The remaining sole complaint was that of a tight pivot of which many of us know knives have a break in period. Now had there actually been other defects and pictures taken if the dealer had said "no its perfect" there would be evidence otherwise.