Reasonable Knife Evaluation

[Morningveil]

If you're in a situation where you might need to abuse your knife in order to make firewood, and you happen to have the knife in that situation in the first place, why would you not also have a small hatchet, if it's likely to come up at all?

For me it would be the weight issue. Especially treking/hunting elk in the mountains. We stick with heavy knives that do everything. My 2cents. Its fun batoning wood with a knife, you should try it.

Wow, half this thread performed like a pig with its stomach slit open. Messy.

Messy like a couple of mothers fighting over quarters at Chuckie Cheese.

When it comes to knives, its the best topic for when you want to pick a fight with somebody.

The preverbial Scorpion and the Coyote, no?

I have a Henkel Chef knife that would smoke that CR GB in the field. ;p

z-lifter

 

[busselover]

The "life threatening situations" that require the knife to be hammered through cinder blocks and other feats of absurd strength are greatly exaggerated by those who use them as justification for these stunts.

That is but one man's opinion. There are certainly many who carry knives into harm's way that take great interest in what a hard use knife can and can't do and probably feel differently.

Continually calling these investigations of ultimate strength "stunts" does nothing to further your point but rather indicates a bias and closed mind. It is certainly not conducive to productive dialog and looks to be more of what you like to refer to as an "attack" or "trolling". If you want substantive dialog, you have to give to get.

 

[busselover]

For me it would be weight. Especially treking/hunting elk in the mountains. We stick with heavy knives that do everything. my 2cents

So, would it be of interest to you to know which heavy knife could be pounded through firewood without breaking? Would it be of interest to know which knife could be pounded through firewood without breaking and costs 1/3 of others that perform equally or less well?

I'm guessing you would be very interested.....

 

[Karda]

For me it would be weight. Especially treking/hunting elk in the mountains. We stick with heavy knives that do everything. my 2cents

When there are plenty of products made for pack/camping use, why would anyone hunt so obviuosly unprepared?
When you are out in the wild with a broken knife, then who is to blame....surely not the manufactuer. Number one rule to survival is using "Common Sense", Number two rule to survival is "Preparedness". Surely you don't hike with just the clothes on your back, only one way to make fire or without a plan and a backup plan in case of need. People going into the wild without proper knowlege, "Common Sense" and gear suited to the needs of the endeavor are the reason our rescue crews are kept quite busy and all too often ends in tragedy.
Again the Onus is on the end-user of these products and endeavors to prepare and use "Common Sense" in their use and in pursuit of their endeavors.

Continually calling these investigations of ultimate strength "stunts" does nothing to further your point but rather indicates a bias and closed mind.

Calling Destructive testing "investigations of ultimate strength" is needlessly glorifying simple entertainment and shows much the same attributes as you claim of calling them "stunts" does. We should all be viewing these tests and knives for what the actually are, and not what we wish them to be.

 

[Morningveil]

So, would it be of interest to you to know which heavy knife could be pounded through firewood without breaking? Would it be of interest to know which knife could be pounded through firewood without breaking and costs 1/3 of others that perform equally or less well?

I'm guessing you would be very interested.....

Well of course it would interesting.
Hatchets and axes are just to heavy to hump around the mountains when you are on an extended hunt. My brother used to bring his along but all he did was bitch about wweight and the thing getting in the way. So now we just baton because it is a new technique that works great for us.

We are always looking to spend money on new technology and find new ways to cut weight.

We just make sure that the wood we gather is exceptable for batonning, otherwise you are at it awhile. But it works for us and "that type of wood" is in good supply. Mostly dead/dried conifer wood.

I hear Busse is a an excellent knife for just such an adventure. At that is why we are hard on our knives. Because we can be, they hold up, and we are adventurous.

 

[busselover]

When there are plenty of products made for pack/camping use, why would anyone hunt so obviuosly unprepared?
When you are out in the wild with a broken knife, then who is to blame....surely not the manufactuer. Number one rule to survival is using "Common Sense", Number two rule to survival is "Preparedness". Surely you don't hike with just the clothes on your back, only one way to make fire or without a plan and a backup plan in case of need.

Unprepared would be bringing a swiss army knife instead of an axe or a large knife that is marketed as being capable of chopping wood. Bringing a knife marketed as capable of chopping wood instead of an axe has nothing to do with common sense other than that a tool that can be used for a multitude of tasks makes more sense to carry when weight is an issue-like on an elk hunt, for example.

And if you are out in the wild with a knife marketed for extreme use and it breaks the second time you chop with it, then it is the manufacturer's fault-ever heard of product liability law?

 

[busselover]

Well of course it would interesting.
Hatchets and axes are just to heavy to hump around the mountains when you are on an extended hunt. My brother used to bring his along but all he did was bitch about wweight and the thing getting in the way. So now we just baton because it is a new technique that works great for us.

We are always looking to spend money on new technology and find new ways to cut weight.

We just make sure that the wood we gather is exceptable for batonning, otherwise you are at it awhile. But it works for us and "that type of wood" is in good supply. Mostly dead/dried conifer wood.

I hear Busse is a an excellent knife for just such an adventure. At that is why we are hard on our knives. Because we can be, they hold up, and we are adventurous.

"Because we can be, they hold up"-Exactly!

And you knew this before you bought a Busse because either the manufacturer marketed the product as suitable for this use and/or you read of people who had actually (ab)used the knife in this manner without failure!

 

[Kohai999]

.....Sharp Phil has gone a step further and claims that destructive testing is abuse, period, and thus has no place in the evaluation of ANY knife.

If you see what I wrote previously...a) I agree with Phil that destructive testing is abuse, and by definition, it is...and b)I DISAGREE with him that this abuse has no place in the evaluation of a knife.....who is doing the "testing" and how differentiates how much weight I will give to the results.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

 

[busselover]

We should all be viewing these tests and knives for what the actually are, and not what we wish them to be.

And who exactly has determined for us all exactly what they are?

 

[Morningveil]

When there are plenty of products made for pack/camping use, why would anyone hunt so obviuosly unprepared?
When you are out in the wild with a broken knife, then who is to blame....surely not the manufactuer. Number one rule to survival is using "Common Sense", Number two rule to survival is "Preparedness". Surely you don't hike with just the clothes on your back, only one way to make fire or without a plan and a backup plan in case of need. People going into the wild without proper knowlege, "Common Sense" and gear suited to the needs of the endeavor are the reason our rescue crews are kept quite busy and all too often ends in tragedy.
Again the Onus is on the end-user of these products and endeavors to prepare and use "Common Sense" in their use and in pursuit of their endeavors.

Calling Destructive testing "investigations of ultimate strength" is needlessly glorifying simple entertainment and shows much the same attributes as you claim of calling them "stunts" does. We should all be viewing these tests and knives for what the actually are, and not what we wish them to be.

Karda,

I can tell its very natural for you to stay at home and critisize (517 posts) those of us that are actually out there. I can tell that you are worried about my safety to help make your point. You hump your hatchet all you want big boy.

Do you think that busse knife is going to fail before your hatchet??

 

[busselover]

If you see what I wrote previously...a) I agree with Phil that destructive testing is abuse, and by definition, it is...and b)I DISAGREE with him that this abuse has no place in the evaluation of a knife.....who is doing the "testing" and how differentiates how much weight I will give to the results.

Best Regards,

STeven Garsson

Understood.....thanks for the explanation.

 

[hardheart]

I still do not see the substantive difference between carrying a knife that batons well and carrying a hatchet. Why is it ok to chop wood with a hatchet?

Because it can do the job without failing, it was designed to do so.

Why is it ok to chop/baton wood with some knives?

Because they are designed to do the job without failing, they were designed to do so.

How do you know a knife was (successfully) designed to baton?

Someone actually goes and batons with the thing.

It is not abuse until the design is tested. Someone could make a knife, tell me they designed it to baton, and it could break on the first hit because of stress risers, wrong steel/heat treat choice, bad geometry, etc. All of a sudden intent and reality don't converge.

Again, somebody has to actually use the thing for a job before you know whether or not it can do the job. If it can do the job, you can go ahead and sell it as such. Really, whether or not it is mentioned in the ad copy is not the only criteria for determining a tool's capabilities.

 

[Karda]

Karda,

I can tell its very natural for you to stay at home and critisize (517 posts) those of us that are actually out there. I can tell that you are worried about my safety to help make your point. You hump your hatchet all you want big boy.

You arent the only hunter on the planet.You presume to know what all my postings are, personal attacks don't give any creedence to your posting.

And if you are out in the wild with a knife marketed for extreme use and it breaks the second time you chop with it, then it is the manufacturer's fault-ever heard of product liability law?

Have fun with that in court. I suggest your opening line be; "but it was tested by knifetests and they gave it plenty of swords".

 

[busselover]

Have fun with that in court. I suggest your opening line be; "but it was tested by knifetests and they gave it plenty of swords".

The point is that manufacturers ARE held liable for their products when they do not live up to their claims, it is not a lack of "common sense" when a product is used as advertised and it breaks....

 

[Tripton]

Whoa...whoa..........whoa........



Honestly, if a knife is not able to baton firewood without breaking, I certainly have NO use for such a weak excuse of a knife. If that is considered abuse, then you better stay and have fun in the city, batoning carrots and chopping potatoes.


I would argue that a large knife works MUCH better than a hatchet for making decent sized firewood.

Cannot baton a hatchet.
Most hatchets do not weigh much more than a large knife.
Much more cutting surface.
Much better steel. (Usually.)


I STILL say a knife that broke whilst attempting to chop a cinder block in half will CUT things and last a long time doing so.

A knife that chopped a cinder block in half successfully will CUT things as well. Including cinder blocks. Better, no?

If these are unrealistic expectations, then so be it. Perhaps it will cause more knife makers/manufacturers to make knives that are stronger and better than current offerings. Why would that be a bad thing?

Buy what you want. I have no reason for a USMC Kabar or GB...and yes..partially because I saw how weak they were on the internet.

 

[3Guardsmen]

Have fun with that in court. I suggest your opening line be; "but it was tested by knifetests and they gave it plenty of swords".

Karda, Hardheart clearly said "marketed," he didn't say "passed a destruction test."

Regards,
3G

 

[Dave28210]

Unprepared would be bringing a swiss army knife instead of an axe or a large knife that is marketed as being capable of chopping wood. Bringing a knife marketed as capable of chopping wood instead of an axe has nothing to do with common sense other than that a tool that can be used for a multitude of tasks makes more sense to carry when weight is an issue-like on an elk hunt, for example.

And if you are out in the wild with a knife marketed for extreme use and it breaks the second time you chop with it, then it is the manufacturer's fault-ever heard of product liability law?

It is the manufacturer's responsiblity to create a good product that does what they say it will-and make things right if it doesn't. It is my responsibility to test my gear before I take it to the field. If the knife breaks as a result of intended use the first or second time, it should be breaking in your back yard, not when needed most. If I take a new knife into the woods, I take a proven veteran with me as a backup. Weight is an issue, but the burden is on me to make sure my gear is going to treat me well.

 

[timsclips]

All other things being equal, harder knives hold an edge longer, softer knives hold up to abuse better.

 

[Bors]

The "life threatening situations" that require the knife to be hammered through cinder blocks and other feats of absurd strength are greatly exaggerated by those who use them as justification for these stunts.

No not at all. The vast majority of the time the knife is likely to be used with in the design specifications however there are times in life when you may have to ask your tools to perform out side of the design parameters. Is it not prudent to know the limitations of your tools....YES.


In part the problem is that there are to many manufactures that are stretching claims or strongly implying that their tools are tough when they are clearly not.

 

[Lycosa]

Bors---Your last sentence nails it.