No. It's exactly for that reason that Blade Forums stays out of it. Blade Forums management makes it very clear that it does NOT have the buyer covered in ANY way. Why in the world would Blade Forums sign up to try to police something that they have absolutely no ability to enforce? The only thing Blade Forums could do is put up a warning saying that people will get infractions if they put up listings asking payment via friends and family, other than that Blade Forums has absolutely no power whatsoever. So then what would happen is unscrupulous sellers will simply do their listings without the friends and family option and then suggest that as an option via email or private message. It will solve nothing. However, suggesting that Blade Forums has any liability at all is the quickest way I can think of to get the exchange shut down entirely. At the end of the day people need to grow up and accept responsibility for their actions. You (generically you, not you personally) tried to cheat paypal by using friends and family and then got cheated by someone on the other end? Yeah that's a shame. Lesson learned, don't do it.
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All For Sale threads must have a pic showing the knife being sold with written date listed, your username & Bladeforums or BFC to prevent photo harvesting from elsewhere - scammers hate this one trick! The rules for The Exchange can be found here. Please read and follow them. Stop using Paypal Friends & Family and follow our best practices to prevent getting ripped off or having a bad deal.
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Bad Reporting “Retired01” for Scamming
- Thread starter Danak
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No. It's exactly for that reason that Blade Forums stays out of it. Blade Forums management makes it very clear that it does NOT have the buyer covered in ANY way. Why in the world would Blade Forums sign up to try to police something that they have absolutely no ability to enforce? The only thing Blade Forums could do is put up a warning saying that people will get infractions if they put up listings asking payment via friends and family, other than that Blade Forums has absolutely no power whatsoever. So then what would happen is unscrupulous sellers will simply do their listings without the friends and family option and then suggest that as an option via email or private message. It will solve nothing. However, suggesting that Blade Forums has any liability at all is the quickest way I can think of to get the exchange shut down entirely. At the end of the day people need to grow up and accept responsibility for their actions. You (generically you, not you personally) tried to cheat paypal by using friends and family and then got cheated by someone on the other end? Yeah that's a shame. Lesson learned, don't do it.
Still amazes me people try to save money from PAYPAL fees in transactions this size.... Only accept G&S whenever I sell. Had a buyer do F&F and immediately refunded and asked for G&S, so we're both protected. How saving 2-3% is worth the trouble experiences and posted many many many times over on BF.
^ Why are people using the F&F method to pay for an item???
Because BF's allow seller's, selling in a large volume of BF's sales thread's, to sell their item's via this method (Friends & Family/Gift).
It's so easy to take the position, and state: "it's not our responsibility to police the sales forum, or to make sure people follow, PayPal's payment policies...
Yet at the same time, buyer's on this forum are given this option (at hands of unscrupulous seller's), at every turn.
I don't find these situations, bewildering at all! I personally feel, that BF's is doing a disservice (especially to the newbie's here), allowing seller's to advertise/sell in this manner.
They think this is the norm! Same for some of the new sellers here; they don't know any different.
At one time, the JD had a policy prohibiting from seller's violating PP's payment policy: selling Good & accepting payment via the F&F method.
And it worked great!
You are confusing where the responsibility lies. An individual is supposed to conduct themselves in a way that protects their interests, that means using paypal the way it was intended, regardless of what a seller wants or says. According to you we should review every sales thread to ensure that certain criteria are met? I hope you have a fat wallet because I'd need to have a paycheck for something like that, as would the rest of the mods that volunteer in the Exchange.
Is it the casino's fault if you gamble away your rent/mortgage every month? No, it isn't, the fault is yours. The rules are posted here, and they are pretty clear on what to do an what not to do, and the risks of not listening. Yet, somehow people manage to blow right past their common sense and get into issues that could have been avoided. The disservice is done by the sellers that want the F&F option only, and people can't resist the urge to gamble their money away and show some restraint before throwing hundreds of dollars to a stranger across the web with out any protection. We cannot protect people from themselves all the time.
Police the Exchange???
How about using the tool most have been taught, hopefully, common sense??
If you need to ask yourself, hmmm should I send cash across the country to someone I never met, for a knife that might not exist, with no protection at all??
If, after this, you send that cash?? You were sleeping during your common sense lesson and deserve what comes next.
Joe
How about using the tool most have been taught, hopefully, common sense??
If you need to ask yourself, hmmm should I send cash across the country to someone I never met, for a knife that might not exist, with no protection at all??
If, after this, you send that cash?? You were sleeping during your common sense lesson and deserve what comes next.
Joe
NJBillK
Custom Leather and Fixed Blade modifications.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2014
- Messages
- 9,594
Retired is on my ignore ist, so that is settled.
I have sent one (1) F&F payment, and it was accidental. It was $30 for a knife that should be landing on Monday.
I am absolutely understanding that I might get an empty box, but I am not expecting it due to the sellers feedback.
That being said, I won't be doing it again. I was running out the door, and didn't double check my transaction prior to hitting send.
Live and learn. Thankfully my lesson was a bit less expensive than yours could have been.
Glad it worked out for you.
I have sent one (1) F&F payment, and it was accidental. It was $30 for a knife that should be landing on Monday.
I am absolutely understanding that I might get an empty box, but I am not expecting it due to the sellers feedback.
That being said, I won't be doing it again. I was running out the door, and didn't double check my transaction prior to hitting send.
Live and learn. Thankfully my lesson was a bit less expensive than yours could have been.
Glad it worked out for you.
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You are confusing where the responsibility lies. An individual is supposed to conduct themselves in a way that protects their interests, that means using paypal the way it was intended, regardless of what a seller wants or says. According to you we should review every sales thread to ensure that certain criteria are met? I hope you have a fat wallet because I'd need to have a paycheck for something like that, as would the rest of the mods that volunteer in the Exchange.
QUOTE]
^ I'm not confusing anything here. And I do understand (you being a Moderator), exactly where you're coming from.
I use PP the way it's intended to be used. I've never once had to start a negative thread, regarding a single purchase/sale I've made here on BF's.
I don't know what the answer is to this ongoing issue; but it seems to me, that it would be very simple to address. Post a sticky that read's: Any member selling Goods on this forum, using PayPal's F&F/Gift, will be immediately banned.
^ Then if a buyer come on here to complain about a F&F transaction that went South; ban both parties!
See how quickly this type of abuse would stop. If's there's no deterrent, why should these scammer's change their M.O.?
If anyone should be banned, it should be seller's like, Retired01; whom has a very long history here perpetuating these very type thread's.
With all due respect: he shouldn't be allowed to be a member here.
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John, I understand your opinion on this matter. I know where you are coming from and I cannot say I fully disagree with most of it. The primary issue is that new folks need to take proactive steps on their own to be safe. We have members listing things for sale in the discussion forums, members starting full blown conversations in a sales thread, people interfering with a sales thread instead of reporting it, people asking for the value of an item without the right membership,etc. Lots of things that should not be, but they are.
There are dozens of threads about this topic of how to pay using Paypal when it comes to buying from friends and such. There is a a majority of the members here that will not use the F&F option, and only use G&S. I take more of an issue when people try and pass off the fees to the buyer, that to me is a bigger slap in the face to a buyer than the F&F option. I still buy things in the Exchange and have not sold anything in a long time. I ignore the members that ask buyers to "add 3%" or whatever, the same goes for the "net to me". I say, I don't need to complicate things if someone is being clear from the get-go.
There are dozens of threads about this topic of how to pay using Paypal when it comes to buying from friends and such. There is a a majority of the members here that will not use the F&F option, and only use G&S. I take more of an issue when people try and pass off the fees to the buyer, that to me is a bigger slap in the face to a buyer than the F&F option. I still buy things in the Exchange and have not sold anything in a long time. I ignore the members that ask buyers to "add 3%" or whatever, the same goes for the "net to me". I say, I don't need to complicate things if someone is being clear from the get-go.
NJBillK
Custom Leather and Fixed Blade modifications.
- Joined
- Mar 27, 2014
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- 9,594
I am right there with you, and agree 99.99% of the time.
The only exception I make is if it is a particular knife, tool, watch, et al, that I have been looking for.
Example:
If someone posted a Wenger Professional 4 layer in the exchange, and wanted me to drive to their house to pay them in cash, it wouldn't matter if it was a 4 hour drive, I would make the time.
Compared to that, doing a bit of math to add a few "%" would be fine.
That being said, I still don't think I would pay F&F.
I agree it's not the job of the mods to police paypal.and common sense. However, look how many huge threads where this is revisited. Constantly People ripped off all kinds of unnecessary crap because of it f&f. Pretty simple in my opinion. You ask for friends and family or accept it in a transaction as a seller you get banned. After a few get the axe this will clear itself up real quick by itself not alot of extra work will be necessary trust me
It's complicated. Perhaps, if there was an infraction against members involved in paypal F&F disputes, and then airing it on the forums, the whole problem would quickly go away, and the mods wouldn't have to work overtime. While I'm not the type of person to invite more rules, there may be some practical application of this idea. If there was no forum support, no drama, and no sympathy, and only a cold and harsh infraction, the players would be left to their own devices to solve the problem.
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I appreciate all your comments and your time, I value every single one of your comments. I made a bad mistake and I know it for using F&F. It started when for the first time someone trusted me and payed me F&F. At that time I made sure to provide the best service possible and convinced myself if the buyer gets back to me for any reason then I will accept return no matter what. After all this hassle that Retired01 caused, and I thank him for opening my eyes, I will not do it again.
I am new to the forum but not very new in knife business. For the first time I learned F&F, G&S, Net to me, add 3,3.5,4%, here in the Forum. As an new member, when you see these in almost every post, you feel that it is common practice and automatically you get used to it. As a matter of fact I started doing it myself (but not anymore).
The purpose of starting this thread was to report Retired01 and share my bad, but happy ending, experience. I would like to give him a chance to defend his self so you hear his part (if any). He started insulting and threatening me for sending others to my door and crap like that. He also disputed a purchase that he made 2 months ago (he left me a positive feedback BTW). He should know by now there is no place for him to do business and his done scamming and harassing people.
The point is if someone wants to scam then he/she will find a way even with G&S. We trust each other every time we place an order even with G&S. Who wants to go to depute route even though you know you paid G&S and you will win the case? every call to PayPal might take 1 hour plus you get mad of the scamming act and and that reflects your personal life.
At the end, the Red Devil is here and he can make the right decision. I know this type of reporting might be redundant and never ending but if at least one person stops doing F&F and dealing with Retired01 them I am done with my part.
I am new to the forum but not very new in knife business. For the first time I learned F&F, G&S, Net to me, add 3,3.5,4%, here in the Forum. As an new member, when you see these in almost every post, you feel that it is common practice and automatically you get used to it. As a matter of fact I started doing it myself (but not anymore).
The purpose of starting this thread was to report Retired01 and share my bad, but happy ending, experience. I would like to give him a chance to defend his self so you hear his part (if any). He started insulting and threatening me for sending others to my door and crap like that. He also disputed a purchase that he made 2 months ago (he left me a positive feedback BTW). He should know by now there is no place for him to do business and his done scamming and harassing people.
The point is if someone wants to scam then he/she will find a way even with G&S. We trust each other every time we place an order even with G&S. Who wants to go to depute route even though you know you paid G&S and you will win the case? every call to PayPal might take 1 hour plus you get mad of the scamming act and and that reflects your personal life.
At the end, the Red Devil is here and he can make the right decision. I know this type of reporting might be redundant and never ending but if at least one person stops doing F&F and dealing with Retired01 them I am done with my part.
Paying F&F for goods offered by strangers is synonymous with the old saying, don't gamble with more than you can afford to lose.
Either way it's always G&S for me, both on buying and selling, no fees either way.
I follow the rules.
Either way it's always G&S for me, both on buying and selling, no fees either way.
I follow the rules.
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- May 29, 2004
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- 24,276
It is mentioned in the exchange rules as a "warning" but it's kind of buried...
"8. Warning: You as a buyer are responsible for using Paypal as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service. Using the "Gift" option revokes any buyer protection you may have if something goes wrong and makes it easier to get scammed. Be smart and protect yourself, if you use gift and get scammed don't come crying to us about it as you've already been advised."
I'm still in favor of a rule against misusing PayPal. It would make a bit more work initially, but if there was an announcement about the rule change and people report the posts it should slow down pretty quick.
~Chip
"8. Warning: You as a buyer are responsible for using Paypal as it was intended, according to their Terms of Service. Using the "Gift" option revokes any buyer protection you may have if something goes wrong and makes it easier to get scammed. Be smart and protect yourself, if you use gift and get scammed don't come crying to us about it as you've already been advised."
I'm still in favor of a rule against misusing PayPal. It would make a bit more work initially, but if there was an announcement about the rule change and people report the posts it should slow down pretty quick.
~Chip
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It always comes down to the "friends & family" vs "goods" argument in these threads, but we are losing sight of the bigger picture as usual. Retired01 has proven himself time and time again to be rude, reactionary, and slightly unhinged in a high percentage of his transactions. Everything from thread stomping, Retaliatory feedback, even attempting to start hall of shame threads for incomplete transactions is documented here. How is he still kicking around? And more importantly, how is there not a sticky thread posted in GBU about him?
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Caveat to the above-I'm in no way second guessing
RevDevil
or @Esav Benyamin or any mod concerning his banning or not. I do think a sticky is warranted at this point though at least
RevDevil
or @Esav Benyamin or any mod concerning his banning or not. I do think a sticky is warranted at this point though at leastIt will never stop until buyers refuse to buy what's on sale when sellers won't pay their own fees.
I was just on the Exchange and the first page has a lot of payment by F&F requests. Or you pay my fees requests. Couple of knives I'd like to grab, but not going to waste the time asking the seller if he'll accept G&S.
I was just on the Exchange and the first page has a lot of payment by F&F requests. Or you pay my fees requests. Couple of knives I'd like to grab, but not going to waste the time asking the seller if he'll accept G&S.
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