Resinol 90C Stabilizing update

[kc custom]

I'm no chemist and have been doing home stabilizing for about 8-10 years with fair results. This thread and the comments herein are far and away the best I have ever read for anything concerning knifemakers.
Ken.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hey Rob,

Appreciate your comments however I am just offering a solution for people who wish to use Resinol, I'm not here to sell you on Resinol or the DVP system even (you should do your own research and determine what is the best system), Henkel has been doing it for years and you are welcome to call their technical support and they will even tell you how they do it to wood. They have their own in-house service where they will impregnate anything for you including wood. It costs a pretty penny though, so I called them and they told me this was the best system "Dry Vacuum/Pressure" for sealing very dense material, and I took it upon myself to find a reasonably priced setup for performing this type of impregnation and came up with my DVP System I mentioned above.

In case you don't already know though, Resinol is actually used primarily (and was invented) for sealing STEEL/Metal parts so that it reduces friction and corrosion (it actually completely seals steel parts from moisture or anything else at the molecular level), and if that is not "dense" I don't know what is! So it actually gets into the molecular level of wood and fills the actual wood cells so that it is totally impregnated and protected, same as with metal.

So, for $35 you can buy a quart of Resinol from my store and try it yourself and even call their technical support if you are interested I will post the number.

I am attaching a link to their Documentation on how to use Resinol for impgrenating materials:

Thanks,
--Jarrett

 

[fitzo]

Jarrett, are you using glass laboratory side-arm vacuum flasks for your system, as the drawing suggests?

Added: I was unable to open your pdf. I got a "page not found" error.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hey Fitzo,

Thanks for the headsup, I will fix the broken link, not sure what happened but I think the pdf is corrupt and will replace it.

I'm not a chemist so am not familiar with that term however, the flask is a "Filtration Flask" by definition, at least thats what it is called where I am purchasing it from and it does have a small side opening where the check-valve and stop-cock are attached.

Hope that answers your question.

--Jarrett

Jarrett, are you using glass laboratory side-arm vacuum flasks for your system, as the drawing suggests?

Added: I was unable to open your pdf. I got a "page not found" error.

 

[ironwoodknives]

The pdf was corrupt so I replaced it and it works fine now

Jarrett, are you using glass laboratory side-arm vacuum flasks for your system, as the drawing suggests?

Added: I was unable to open your pdf. I got a "page not found" error.

 

[ironwoodknives]

I see from your info it says you are a retired chemist So you probably know more than I do what it is called

I do know it works darn good, there is no reason to spend 3k when this setup does the exact same thing for a tenth of the price and I think I did pretty good thinking it up actually....

Jarrett, are you using glass laboratory side-arm vacuum flasks for your system, as the drawing suggests?

Added: I was unable to open your pdf. I got a "page not found" error.

 

[fitzo]

Thank you for your answer, Jarrett. I am asking for a specific reason: have you verified with the manufacturer that the flasks are rated for both the vacuum and pressure levels your instructions recommend?
The reason I ask is that some vacuum-rated glass will hold a high vacuum without imploding, but will hold little pressure without exploding. Some vacuum vessels will explode with as little as 3 PSI of pressure.
If you are not absolutely certain of the answer to this, I would recommend you contact the manufacturer and verify the glassware's safety for this application.
I say this only because of experience with this very issue in the laboratory when a co-worker had a very bad accident. Verifying this will help protect both your customers wellbeing and your insurance liability.
Best regards.

Added: your pdf downloaded fine this time. Thanks, I'll read it tomorrow.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hey Fitzo,

Yes, that was one of the requirements and the flask is described as follows:

Borosil brand 5000 mL filtration flask with lateral tubulation.

This low expansion borosilicate flask is very resistant to chemical, mechanical and thermal shock.​

Features:​

[SIZE=+0]Smooth heavy rim[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Bolt neck[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=+0]Thick uniform wall construction[/SIZE]​

Accepts a # 12 stopper​

The tapered contour of this flask favors reduced chipping, adding safety and longevity to a very durable design​

This flask alone costs me over $145

Hope this helps!
--Jarrett

Thank you for your answer, Jarrett. I am asking for a specific reason: have you verified with the manufacturer that the flasks are rated for both the vacuum and pressure levels your instructions recommend?
The reason I ask is that some vacuum-rated glass will hold a high vacuum without imploding, but will hold little pressure without exploding. Some vacuum vessels will explode with as little as 3 PSI of pressure.
If you are not absolutely certain of the answer to this, I would recommend you contact the manufacturer and verify the glassware's safety for this application.
I say this only because of experience with this very issue in the laboratory when a co-worker had a very bad accident. Verifying this will help protect both your customers wellbeing and your insurance liability.
Best regards.

Added: your pdf downloaded fine this time. Thanks, I'll read it tomorrow.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hi Again Fitzo,

I will call the manufacturer to verify tomorrow, I have emailed the distributor to verify as well, so should have answers back from both by tomorrow hopefully.

Would you be interested in one once verified?

--Jarrett

Thank you for your answer, Jarrett. I am asking for a specific reason: have you verified with the manufacturer that the flasks are rated for both the vacuum and pressure levels your instructions recommend?
The reason I ask is that some vacuum-rated glass will hold a high vacuum without imploding, but will hold little pressure without exploding. Some vacuum vessels will explode with as little as 3 PSI of pressure.
If you are not absolutely certain of the answer to this, I would recommend you contact the manufacturer and verify the glassware's safety for this application.
I say this only because of experience with this very issue in the laboratory when a co-worker had a very bad accident. Verifying this will help protect both your customers wellbeing and your insurance liability.
Best regards.

Added: your pdf downloaded fine this time. Thanks, I'll read it tomorrow.

 

[fitzo]

Hi Again Fitzo,

I will call the manufacturer to verify tomorrow, I have emailed the distributor to verify as well, so should have answers back from both by tomorrow hopefully.

Would you be interested in one once verified?

--Jarrett

Thank you, but I already have a stabilizing setup with a metal pressure-pot and a vacuum pump that sits idle. My initial interest with home stabilizing didn't last.

I am only trying to point out a possible safety concern when pressurizing vacuum-rated glassware, based on many years of lab experience. Your particular glassware may tolerate your procedure very well. Verifying that with the manufacturer/distributor may save you some later headaches.

As with all these home systems that utilize glass, I recommend using some sort of scattershield to prevent flying shards in case of explosion/implosion. Putting the entire apparatus inside one of those large transluscent plastic bins from a wally-world would offer some measure of protection. There are also semi-clear coatings available that put a plastic coating on the outside of glassware to help contain shattering.

Take care. Good luck with your product.

 

[Mark Basford]

Jarrett,

Looking at your diagram, I see how the vacuum process works, but what keeps the stopper from popping out of the flask when you switch to pressure? Just Friction? What kind of pressures are required to get a decent result?

thanks.

Mark

 

[ironwoodknives]

Cool,

Glad it downloaded for you Mike.

--JNR

Thank you for your answer, Jarrett. I am asking for a specific reason: have you verified with the manufacturer that the flasks are rated for both the vacuum and pressure levels your instructions recommend?
The reason I ask is that some vacuum-rated glass will hold a high vacuum without imploding, but will hold little pressure without exploding. Some vacuum vessels will explode with as little as 3 PSI of pressure.
If you are not absolutely certain of the answer to this, I would recommend you contact the manufacturer and verify the glassware's safety for this application.
I say this only because of experience with this very issue in the laboratory when a co-worker had a very bad accident. Verifying this will help protect both your customers wellbeing and your insurance liability.
Best regards.

Added: your pdf downloaded fine this time. Thanks, I'll read it tomorrow.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hi All,

Good news and good information. I spoke with Henkel engineers and here is what was said:

Henkel Impregnation Support Specialist -

• They have a lot of experience and success stabilizing/impregnating wood with Resinol 90C
• The Dry Vacuum Pressure system I have is the best way to impregnate the material
• The key is to get the best complete vacuum prior to adding the pressure, so raising the vacuum slowly (say 10-20 minutes to completely reach 1 atmosphere) before adding pressure is best.
• Once full vacuum is reached (which on my system is 1 atmosphere or 14.7psi) it is done, maybe soak at full vacuum for 1 minute, then reverse the process by adding the equal amount of pressure or 14.7psi and letting it soak for 5 minutes. Any additional time is wasted time I was old, as increased time will not remove the air bubbles any more than they already have been by the applied vacuum and pressure. There is no reason to soak for 2 weeks or even 2 days using the DVP system like some people are forced to do when just letting wood sit in a solution at ambient pressure and temperature.
• To cure the wood and harden the Resinol the wood has to be brought up to 195 degrees F completely by putting on wax paper and placing in a 200 degree oven for between 5-20 minutes
• The Resinol should be stored below 78 degrees at all times and has a shelf life of around four years at the temperature range 45-75 degrees

Chemistry/Lab support specialist -

• The only part of the system which will be affected by the vacuum/pressure is the main chamber and the short section of tubing before the stop-cock and they are approved for the 1 atmosphere that the pump is capable of generating, with no problem
• They are verifying whether the stopper can withstand the 14.7psi and if not they will replace the flask with a specimen jar which has the added benefit of a 3" opening and a screw type lid

I will have the final diagram and parts configuration by end f today and will be updating the website and this thread with the new system changes at that time as well as any cost differential (if anything the cost may go down, not up)

Thanks and I hope this helps, we are pretty excited and will be going into full stabilizing production next week ourselves.

--Jarrett
www.ironwoodknives.com

Jarrett,

Looking at your diagram, I see how the vacuum process works, but what keeps the stopper from popping out of the flask when you switch to pressure? Just Friction? What kind of pressures are required to get a decent result?

thanks.

Mark

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hi Mark,

We wanted to keep everyone updated on any new improvements we make to our new Dry Vacuum Pressure Impregnation System, and hence we are updating the thread here with a new article which outlines some of the issues found and how we are resolving them.
Additional Instructions and Documentation can be found here: Ironwood Knives Blog


Issues Discovered (contributions by people at Blade Forums gratefully acknowledged)

• Rubber Stopper popping out due to increased pressure
• Flask and/or glass tubing not being able to withstand the added pressure
• Small size of flask mouth (2")

Changes made to the design

• Replaced glass tubing with poly tubing
• Replaced flask with large mouth (3") specimen jar
• Replaced all joints and potential places of leakage with brass pressure fittings

Old Diagram
















New Diagram


New Actual Test System -

The New System Includes the following items:

* Erlenmyer Flask 1000ml w/rubber stopper
* 1/4" Brass coupler
* 1/4" Brass elbow
* 1/4" Brass tubing connector
* 8mm Stopcock
* Hardwall Poly Tubing
* Rubber Gasket
* MityVac Selectline Vacuum/Pressure Pump w/Gauge
* Hydro Aspirator
* 32oz Specimen Jar w/lid
* 1 Quart of Resinol 90C Included with Purchase!

This new design not only includes the hand vacuum/pressure pump w/gauge but also includes a water aspirator which will allow you to reach vacuum easier than by hand (if you are doing a lot of wood your hand will quickly become tired! pumping both the vacuum and pressure with only the hand pump). So we believe this is a pretty good solution for the price. We are not making anything on it ourselves and are basically offering it at cost plus shipping.
If you are interested in purchasing one of these systems, the price has been drastically reduced as well to only $225 (down from the original cost of $350) you can purchase it online however due to politics here I was asked to remove the link to buy it. So if you are interested you are free to email me at sales@ironwoodknives.com


You can find out more information about this system and others as well as information on other chemicals and how to use them (Ferric Chloride 99.8% PCB etchant for etching Damascus, Anhydrous Borax, etc...) at our online Blog located at: http://www.ironwoodknives.com/blogger.html

Jarrett,

Looking at your diagram, I see how the vacuum process works, but what keeps the stopper from popping out of the flask when you switch to pressure? Just Friction? What kind of pressures are required to get a decent result?

thanks.

Mark

 

[ironwoodknives]

All,

I forgot to add, that the system will come complete and partially assembled (obviously you will have to screw the top on and connect the hoses, and plug the power cord for the aspirator into the wall) but other than those minor assemblies, there will be no gluing or other fabrication required.

The system also includes 1 Quart of Resinol 90C along with complete instructions to get you started!

Hope this may help some of you. Please let me know if you have further questions and I will try to answer them to the best of my ability.

--Jarrett
www.ironwoodknives.com
209-763-2865

 

[Larry D. Davis]

Holy crap!! What safety release are you using for that glass bomb...er...pressure vessel? The pressure isn't high enouth to do much impregnating good and probably low enough to slide by the state and federal pressure vessel laws, but people being people do careless things. How will you safeguard and assure that pressure does not exceed the manufacturer's certification for a glass pressure vessel? What does the glass manufacture certify as maximum pressure? You may have answered thqt before, but I missed if so. Folks...pressure kills...be very smart about what you do.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Holy Crap!

I'm not certifying anything buddy. Why do assholes like you who have never thought of a decent idea in their lives need to run a round complaining and finding faults with other people and their ideas?

If you don;t like what we are selling you can NOT BUY IT, hows that? If you want something certified, then go pay the $2,000 a real commercial vacuum chamber will cost you with that much volume.

--Jarrett

Holy crap!! What safety release are you using for that glass bomb...er...pressure vessel? The pressure isn't high enouth to do much impregnating good and probably low enough to slide by the state and federal pressure vessel laws, but people being people do careless things. How will you safeguard and assure that pressure does not exceed the manufacturer's certification for a glass pressure vessel? What does the glass manufacture certify as maximum pressure? You may have answered thqt before, but I missed if so. Folks...pressure kills...be very smart about what you do.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Oh, and Larry the cable guy, while I'm at it...

You are probably one of those socialist liberal idiots who voted the jerk into office that is destroying this great nation that many have died for and trying to turn the US into a socialist welfare state huh?

I bet you are hoping he sends you your check from other peoples hard work, real soon huh!?

Holy crap!! What safety release are you using for that glass bomb...er...pressure vessel? The pressure isn't high enouth to do much impregnating good and probably low enough to slide by the state and federal pressure vessel laws, but people being people do careless things. How will you safeguard and assure that pressure does not exceed the manufacturer's certification for a glass pressure vessel? What does the glass manufacture certify as maximum pressure? You may have answered thqt before, but I missed if so. Folks...pressure kills...be very smart about what you do.

 

[fitzo]

Oh, and Larry the cable guy, while I'm at it...

You are probably one of those socialist liberal idiots who voted the jerk into office that is destroying this great nation that many have died for and trying to turn the US into a socialist welfare state huh?

I bet you are hoping he sends you your check from other peoples hard work, real soon huh!?

That comment is uncalled for, petty, and obnoxious, Jarrett. There is a sub-forum specifically for political opinions, and they are considered inappropriate in Shoptalk.

If you were to look at Larry's profile and check his website, you'll find he has been in the wood business for years. He is quite conversant with stabilized woods and the process.

Since you elected to put your sales pitch in this discussion forum it is open to commentary. Safety concerns with new products are frequently a subject of discussion here, as some members may be more conversant than others with particular hazards.

Selling doesn't belong in this forum, but instead should be placed in the For Sale: Equipment forum, where commentary is monitored and limited. Perhaps it would be better if you started a thread there to hawk your wares.

 

[ironwoodknives]

Hey Fitz,

I'm not here to sell my "wares" Fitz, as a matter of fact I loose money on this system. I was trying to help out others with a thread that has been here for years with no solution. If you don't like what I've posted here then sorry about that.


--Jarrett

That comment is uncalled for, petty, and obnoxious, Jarrett. There is a sub-forum specifically for political opinions, and they are considered inappropriate in Shoptalk.

If you were to look at Larry's profile and check his website, you'll find he has been in the wood business for years. He is quite conversant with stabilized woods and the process.

Since you elected to put your sales pitch in this discussion forum it is open to commentary. Safety concerns with new products are frequently a subject of discussion here, as some members may be more conversant than others with particular hazards.

Selling doesn't belong in this forum, but instead should be placed in the For Sale: Equipment forum, where commentary is monitored and limited. Perhaps it would be better if you started a thread there to hawk your wares.