Restoring a Fadal Vertical Machining Center

Good idea Jess!

Here you go:

l485W2E.png


The N-words leading each line are just line numbers. The R-words are variable names. Every line that needs to be executed programatically has to be preceded with a '#' symbol.

G90 tells the machine all coordinates are absolute rather than incremental.
G9 tells the machine to use feedrate ramping when accelerating to a new location.
G1 tells the machine that it should be making linear coordinated moves, as opposed to G0 (G0 denotes rapid non-cutting moves with no need for coordination between axes).
S100 sets the spindle speed to 100RPM.
M3 turns the spindle on in the clockwise direction.
F+R1 sets the feedrate to the number contained in variable R1.
S+R3 sets the spindle speed to the number contained in variable R3.

The statements starting with XYZ are telling the machine to move to those locations (in inches).

This is a fairly small sample of the kinds of sophisticated programming that can be done on a machine like this. More sophisticated programs might take results from sensors and use them in the program, for example when grinding with a stone mounted in the spindle. Lots of interesting things are possible that's for sure!
 
here u go, some 5 axis holes
since we work with customer's castings that have variations, we touch probe everything (renishaw),
then there is some simple conditional programming (what-if statements)


%
N1O183(5 AXIS HOLES
N2M6T2(3/16 CENTERDRILL
N3M3S2500
N4#V1=-.155
N5(V1 IS DEPTH OF CENTER DRILL
N6#V2=V1
N7#R2=1.3446+V1
N8#R3=1.467+V1
N9#R4=1.5722+V1
N10#R5=1.6601+V1
N11#R6=1.5148+V2
N12#R7=1.4252+V2
N13#R8=1.3188+V2
N14#R9=1.1957+V2
N15G0X-7.8645Y-1.812A-307.6232B-350.3428E10H2Z6.
N16Z2.M7
N17G83X-7.8645Z+R2F2.P0.0050Q0.02R+1.38
N18X-6.8097Y-1.6718A307.7509B-349.4169R+1.5Z+R3
N19X-5.7548Y-1.5179A307.8909B-348.4926R+1.6Z+R4
N20X-4.7005Y-1.3503A308.0453B-347.5702R+1.69Z+R5
N21X-4.7272Y-2.3832A-308.0146B347.7389R+1.55Z+R6
N22X-5.779Y-2.548A-307.8664B348.6483R+1.46Z+R7
N23X-6.8312Y-2.6993A-307.7304B349.5594R+1.35Z+R8
N24X-7.8832Y-2.8372A-307.6064B350.472R+1.23Z+R9
N25G80M5M9
N26G0Z6.
N27M6T3(#31 DRILL
N28M1
N29M3S750
N30#V1=-.33
N31(V1 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON BACK STRIP
N32#V2=-.2
N33(V2 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON FRONT STRIP
N34#R2=1.3446+V1
N35#R3=1.467+V1
N36#R4=1.5722+V1
N37#R5=1.6601+V1
N38#R6=1.5148+V2
N39#R7=1.4252+V2
N40#R8=1.3188+V2
N41#R9=1.1957+V2
N42G0X-7.8645Y-1.812A-307.6232B-350.3428E10H3Z6.
N43Z2.M7
N44G83X-7.8645Z+R2F1.P0.0050Q0.02R+1.38
N45X-6.8097Y-1.6718A307.7509B-349.4169R+1.5Z+R3
N46X-5.7548Y-1.5179A307.8909B-348.4926R+1.6Z+R4
N47X-4.7005Y-1.3503A308.0453B-347.5702R+1.69Z+R5
N48X-4.7272Y-2.3832A-308.0146B347.7389R+1.55Z+R6
N49X-5.779Y-2.548A-307.8664B348.6483R+1.46Z+R7
N50X-6.8312Y-2.6993A-307.7304B349.5594R+1.35Z+R8
N51X-7.8832Y-2.8372A-307.6064B350.472R+1.23Z+R9
N52G80M5M9
N53G0Z6.
N54M6T4(.129 REAMER
N55M1
N56M3S300
N57#V1=-.6
N58(V1 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON BACK STRIP
N59#V2=-.5
N60(V2 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON FRONT STRIP
N61#R2=1.3446+V1
N62#R3=1.467+V1
N63#R4=1.5722+V1
N64#R5=1.6601+V1
N65#R6=1.5148+V2
N66#R7=1.4252+V2
N67#R8=1.3188+V2
N68#R9=1.1957+V2
N69G0X-7.8645Y-1.812A-307.6232B-350.3428E10H4Z6.
N70Z2.M7
N71G85X-7.8645Z+R2F5.R+1.38
N72X-6.8097Y-1.6718A307.7509B-349.4169R+1.5Z+R3
N73X-5.7548Y-1.5179A307.8909B-348.4926R+1.6Z+R4
N74X-4.7005Y-1.3503A308.0453B-347.5702R+1.69Z+R5
N75X-4.7272Y-2.3832A-308.0146B347.7389R+1.55Z+R6
N76X-5.779Y-2.548A-307.8664B348.6483R+1.46Z+R7
N77X-6.8312Y-2.6993A-307.7304B349.5594R+1.35Z+R8
N78X-7.8832Y-2.8372A-307.6064B350.472R+1.23Z+R9
N79G80M5M9
N80G0Z6.
N81G0X0Y0Z0E0G49
N82M19
N83M2
%
 
hsc3_90293 said:
here u go, some 5 axis holes
since we work with customer's castings that have variations, we touch probe everything (renishaw),
then there is some simple conditional programming (what-if statements)


%
N1O183(5 AXIS HOLES
N2M6T2(3/16 CENTERDRILL
N3M3S2500
N4#V1=-.155
N5(V1 IS DEPTH OF CENTER DRILL
N6#V2=V1
N7#R2=1.3446+V1
N8#R3=1.467+V1
N9#R4=1.5722+V1
N10#R5=1.6601+V1
N11#R6=1.5148+V2
N12#R7=1.4252+V2
N13#R8=1.3188+V2
N14#R9=1.1957+V2
N15G0X-7.8645Y-1.812A-307.6232B-350.3428E10H2Z6.
N16Z2.M7
N17G83X-7.8645Z+R2F2.P0.0050Q0.02R+1.38
N18X-6.8097Y-1.6718A307.7509B-349.4169R+1.5Z+R3
N19X-5.7548Y-1.5179A307.8909B-348.4926R+1.6Z+R4
N20X-4.7005Y-1.3503A308.0453B-347.5702R+1.69Z+R5
N21X-4.7272Y-2.3832A-308.0146B347.7389R+1.55Z+R6
N22X-5.779Y-2.548A-307.8664B348.6483R+1.46Z+R7
N23X-6.8312Y-2.6993A-307.7304B349.5594R+1.35Z+R8
N24X-7.8832Y-2.8372A-307.6064B350.472R+1.23Z+R9
N25G80M5M9
N26G0Z6.
N27M6T3(#31 DRILL
N28M1
N29M3S750
N30#V1=-.33
N31(V1 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON BACK STRIP
N32#V2=-.2
N33(V2 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON FRONT STRIP
N34#R2=1.3446+V1
N35#R3=1.467+V1
N36#R4=1.5722+V1
N37#R5=1.6601+V1
N38#R6=1.5148+V2
N39#R7=1.4252+V2
N40#R8=1.3188+V2
N41#R9=1.1957+V2
N42G0X-7.8645Y-1.812A-307.6232B-350.3428E10H3Z6.
N43Z2.M7
N44G83X-7.8645Z+R2F1.P0.0050Q0.02R+1.38
N45X-6.8097Y-1.6718A307.7509B-349.4169R+1.5Z+R3
N46X-5.7548Y-1.5179A307.8909B-348.4926R+1.6Z+R4
N47X-4.7005Y-1.3503A308.0453B-347.5702R+1.69Z+R5
N48X-4.7272Y-2.3832A-308.0146B347.7389R+1.55Z+R6
N49X-5.779Y-2.548A-307.8664B348.6483R+1.46Z+R7
N50X-6.8312Y-2.6993A-307.7304B349.5594R+1.35Z+R8
N51X-7.8832Y-2.8372A-307.6064B350.472R+1.23Z+R9
N52G80M5M9
N53G0Z6.
N54M6T4(.129 REAMER
N55M1
N56M3S300
N57#V1=-.6
N58(V1 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON BACK STRIP
N59#V2=-.5
N60(V2 IS DEPTH OF DRILL ON FRONT STRIP
N61#R2=1.3446+V1
N62#R3=1.467+V1
N63#R4=1.5722+V1
N64#R5=1.6601+V1
N65#R6=1.5148+V2
N66#R7=1.4252+V2
N67#R8=1.3188+V2
N68#R9=1.1957+V2
N69G0X-7.8645Y-1.812A-307.6232B-350.3428E10H4Z6.
N70Z2.M7
N71G85X-7.8645Z+R2F5.R+1.38
N72X-6.8097Y-1.6718A307.7509B-349.4169R+1.5Z+R3
N73X-5.7548Y-1.5179A307.8909B-348.4926R+1.6Z+R4
N74X-4.7005Y-1.3503A308.0453B-347.5702R+1.69Z+R5
N75X-4.7272Y-2.3832A-308.0146B347.7389R+1.55Z+R6
N76X-5.779Y-2.548A-307.8664B348.6483R+1.46Z+R7
N77X-6.8312Y-2.6993A-307.7304B349.5594R+1.35Z+R8
N78X-7.8832Y-2.8372A-307.6064B350.472R+1.23Z+R9
N79G80M5M9
N80G0Z6.
N81G0X0Y0Z0E0G49
N82M19
N83M2
%
Click to expand...

I'm betting that took some time to write if it's all done by hand!
 
aarongough said:
I believe they were running synthetic coolant on this machine, so that might explain it!

I'm actually planning to avoid flood coolant as much as I can, but we'll see how that goes after I actually get setup. The plan right now is to do all my steel machining dry using coated tools and air-blast in combination with HSM toolpaths. G10 will also be machined dry, I will be installing a serious vacuum system to stop G10 dust getting everywhere. Any aluminum cutting I do will hopefully be done with the aid of MQL instead of flood coolant.
As they say though 'no plan survives contact with the enemy' so we'll see how that goes once I actually get stuck in.
Click to expand...

Hat's off to you for taking this on.
I've used cold-air guns and coolant and vacs.
These days I use coolant most (Hocut 795).
It doesn't stink up the place or leave everything around the shop greasy and smelly like some coolants do. It's also very gentle and non-staining. Kind of expensive, but lasts.

I have yet to see a vac system capable of really controlling G-10 or CF dust. That stuff gets everywhere---unless you cut it wet. Then, nothing. You have to filter your coolant, but that's not a big deal.
 
I believe that the dust from G10 and carbon fiber is hazardous to breath. The finest particles, that stay suspended for hours and you can't see, are the most dangerous because they can penetrate cell walls.

Generally speaking, most people do fine with a little bit of anything. But if you're doing much of it you need to take precautions.

The finest particles go straight through most dust collector bags. Dust collectors and air filters designed for saw dust may not be appropriate for glass dust and might actually make the situation worse.

We machine scales in production here. The G10 is done under a large volume of flood coolant.

If I were cutting much G10 dry, I'd have HEPA filtration or I'd vent outside.
 
JCaswell said:
Hat's off to you for taking this on.
I've used cold-air guns and coolant and vacs.
These days I use coolant most (Hocut 795).
It doesn't stink up the place or leave everything around the shop greasy and smelly like some coolants do. It's also very gentle and non-staining. Kind of expensive, but lasts.

I have yet to see a vac system capable of really controlling G-10 or CF dust. That stuff gets everywhere---unless you cut it wet. Then, nothing. You have to filter your coolant, but that's not a big deal.
Click to expand...

Thanks I will keep the Hocut in mind if I end up having to run coolant!

Nathan the Machinist said:
I believe that the dust from G10 and carbon fiber is hazardous to breath. The finest particles, that stay suspended for hours and you can't see, are the most dangerous because they can penetrate cell walls.

Generally speaking, most people do fine with a little bit of anything. But if you're doing much of it you need to take precautions.

The finest particles go straight through most dust collector bags. Dust collectors and air filters designed for saw dust may not be appropriate for glass dust and might actually make the situation worse.

We machine scales in production here. The G10 is done under a large volume of flood coolant.

If I were cutting much G10 dry, I'd have HEPA filtration or I'd vent outside.
Click to expand...

The plan in terms of dust collection was to use HEPA filters for sure. All my vacuums in my shop already have HEPA filters actually as I really believe that any coarser filter is doing more harm than good by simply blowing around all the fine particulates...

For dust collection I currently use a Rigid Pro vacuum fitted with a HEPA filter and I run a small cyclone in front of it (Dust Deputy) in order to avoid clogging up the machine. For the machining center if I decide to use the vacuum system I may go larger, something like the Dust Cobra from Oneida would work well most likely. It's a HEPA system and it moves a lot of air, and moves it at relatively high velocity...

We'll see... As you guys said I really don't want to be breathing in G10 dust. If I find at all that I can smell the G10 when cutting even with the vacuum then I'll have to switch to flood coolant. I don't want to have to live in my respirator all the time.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I believe that the dust from G10 and carbon fiber is hazardous to breath. The finest particles, that stay suspended for hours and you can't see, are the most dangerous because they can penetrate cell walls.

Generally speaking, most people do fine with a little bit of anything. But if you're doing much of it you need to take precautions.

The finest particles go straight through most dust collector bags. Dust collectors and air filters designed for saw dust may not be appropriate for glass dust and might actually make the situation worse.

We machine scales in production here. The G10 is done under a large volume of flood coolant.

If I were cutting much G10 dry, I'd have HEPA filtration or I'd vent outside.
Click to expand...

My experience exactly.
I actually don't believe you can effectively control the kind of dust we're talking about short of flood coolant. No matter how much vacuum you put on it, it seems a good amount of the finest particles escape. Over hours of cutting, it adds up to serious dust problem.
I've run massive CFM industrial dust collectors--that'll suck a rag right out of your hand if you get within a 18 inches of the 6 inch gate, and dust still somehow escapes the enclosure. I think you'll find that you'll be fouling HEPA filters like mad, AND you'll still have a dust issue.
 
Nathan the Machinist said:
I believe that the dust from G10 and carbon fiber is hazardous to breath. The finest particles, that stay suspended for hours and you can't see, are the most dangerous because they can penetrate cell walls.

Generally speaking, most people do fine with a little bit of anything. But if you're doing much of it you need to take precautions.

The finest particles go straight through most dust collector bags. Dust collectors and air filters designed for saw dust may not be appropriate for glass dust and might actually make the situation worse.

We machine scales in production here. The G10 is done under a large volume of flood coolant.

If I were cutting much G10 dry, I'd have HEPA filtration or I'd vent outside.
Click to expand...

I know you mentioned it before, but I've misplaced it.

What kind of modifications do you do to filter that out of your coolant ?
 
JCaswell said:
My experience exactly.
I actually don't believe you can effectively control the kind of dust we're talking about short of flood coolant. No matter how much vacuum you put on it, it seems a good amount of the finest particles escape. Over hours of cutting, it adds up to serious dust problem.
I've run massive CFM industrial dust collectors--that'll suck a rag right out of your hand if you get within a 18 inches of the 6 inch gate, and dust still somehow escapes the enclosure. I think you'll find that you'll be fouling HEPA filters like mad, AND you'll still have a dust issue.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the input! I have a coolant tank pretty much ready to go, so I will look at getting a filter and so on set up for it...
 
It looks like a really nice environment you've created for your machine (wood floors, base molding, fresh walls).
If/when you go with coolant, let me suggest that you really want to get one that:

1. Doesn't stink like a toxic waste dump (some are so bad, it's literally nauseating, they make you stink of it and leave a greasy film on everything in the shop).
2. Doesn't stink from bacteria (some of the friendly/healthy coolants will begin to putrefy after a short while)
3. Doesn't stain (it'll end up staining your clothes, walls, machine, floor, etc.)
4. Isn't toxic (you're breathing this stuff too since a certain amount is aerosolized during cutting and when you blow off parts with compressed air, etc.)
5. Actually performs as a high-performance cutting fluid suitable for a variety of materials.

Like I said, I use Hocut 795, and would run it in my living room.
Its more than $200 for 5 gallons (which mixes down 8 or 10 to 1 with water). Still running on the first 5 gallons bucket for about 2 years now, but about to break into the next bucket soon.

There may well be others that are as good or better. Haven't tried them all, and am not inclined to do so, since this one has lived up to its claims.

But definitely, check around and be aware of these common coolant issues. Don't just go on price on this. It kinda hits you where you live.
 
When one considers the nightmare that is sump maintenance, the damage you can do to your machine and your body and the startling fact that you'll pay way more to legally dispose of fouled coolant than you'll ever pay to buy it, you'll realize the actual purchase price of the coolant is trivial and shouldn't hardly work into your equation. Stuff like that "Oak Signature" you see in the sale catalogs for $60 for 5 gallons are awful. Rust, pealing paint, hard varnish, and the goddamn sump livers ...stay far away...

We went with Trim Microsol 585XT here. I selected it because it's easy on me and my people, it washes off my parts well (important with my scales production), and it is comparatively compatible with most plastics (also important here). It performs well (was designed for cast iron and titanium) and never goes funky if kept in the appropriate concentration range. In all these years I've never had to dispose of a funky sump, even one that sat unused for almost two years with a layer of oil on it.

We use 15-20 gallons of it a year mixed down to 5-10%. It's important to mix it with clean water, not your nasty old sump, for it to emulsify properly.



12345678910 said:
I know you mentioned it before, but I've misplaced it.

What kind of modifications do you do to filter that out of your coolant ?
Click to expand...



We process many tons of micarta and G10 a year and eventually got a mill totally dedicated to it which came pretty well designed for it, but the fundamentals are simple and easily applied to any sump.

The fines form a mud that will clog up most any perforated metal screen so machines like the Haas VF mills that auger out across a catch pan over the sump simply clog up the pan and overflow with very little mud actually making it up out the chute. The Haas minimill is even worse (with an auger) because there are two floors that get clogged up between them.

In fact, most machines I've seen simply clog up and over flow with any kind of sustained production. 9 times out of 10 you end up with a flood. On these machines you need to modify the sump so the fines simply flow directly into the sump where you can process them with a centrifugal pump rated to pump solids and run it through a big bag filter. A 200 micron filter will keep things flowing and when well implemented doesn't clog up before it fills up.

Our primary scales machine dumps the coolant across a really big screen mesh then a large perforated metal before it goes into the sump. The large surface area allows the coolant to leak through the mud rather than back up onto the floor. From there the sump was modified so all of the flow to the pump is constricted across a narrow dam. There is a pick up on the opposite side of the sump and a 1 HP centrifugal pump rated for solids that picks up the contaminated coolant and pumps it through a big sock filter into the sump pump box. We only filter down to 200 microns. This machine is built so the way covers never see coolant, so there is little risk of grit finding its way to the ways and screws so finer filtration isn't necessary. A well implemented 200 micron bag can last a full day of production like this.
 
Aaron,

Once you get the CNC stuff going, you should keep your current jigs and templates and once a year, make 5-10 all handmade knives. You can number them and charge a premium. I am going to keep following you as well as Gough Knives and I look forward to owning a Gough Resolute 4 one day... the YouTube videos showed me so much and I learned a lot. I really liked the thought of each knife being handmade in a toaster oven. Maybe one day I still will?

I almost bought a Bark River Aurora LT last month, but instead I put the money in savings and, with any luck, will get in line once you start taking orders again. (Hopefully nothing will come up and I have to spend my savings on something else. With two kids and three foster kids, something always comes up... but I'm going to try and hide this cash.)

Bobby
 
Last edited:
Nathan the Machinist said:
When one considers the nightmare that is sump maintenance, the damage you can do to your machine and your body and the startling fact that you'll pay way more to legally dispose of fouled coolant than you'll ever pay to buy it, you'll realize the actual purchase price of the coolant is trivial and shouldn't hardly work into your equation. Stuff like that "Oak Signature" you see in the sale catalogs for $60 for 5 gallons are awful. Rust, pealing paint, hard varnish, and the goddamn sump livers ...stay far away...

We went with Trim Microsol 585XT here. I selected it because it's easy on me and my people, it washes off my parts well (important with my scales production), and it is comparatively compatible with most plastics (also important here). It performs well (was designed for cast iron and titanium) and never goes funky if kept in the appropriate concentration range. In all these years I've never had to dispose of a funky sump, even one that sat unused for almost two years with a layer of oil on it.

We use 15-20 gallons of it a year mixed down to 5-10%. It's important to mix it with clean water, not your nasty old sump, for it to emulsify properly.

We process many tons of micarta and G10 a year and eventually got a mill totally dedicated to it which came pretty well designed for it, but the fundamentals are simple and easily applied to any sump.

The fines form a mud that will clog up most any perforated metal screen so machines like the Haas VF mills that auger out across a catch pan over the sump simply clog up the pan and overflow with very little mud actually making it up out the chute. The Haas minimill is even worse (with an auger) because there are two floors that get clogged up between them.

In fact, most machines I've seen simply clog up and over flow with any kind of sustained production. 9 times out of 10 you end up with a flood. On these machines you need to modify the sump so the fines simply flow directly into the sump where you can process them with a centrifugal pump rated to pump solids and run it through a big bag filter. A 200 micron filter will keep things flowing and when well implemented doesn't clog up before it fills up.

Our primary scales machine dumps the coolant across a really big screen mesh then a large perforated metal before it goes into the sump. The large surface area allows the coolant to leak through the mud rather than back up onto the floor. From there the sump was modified so all of the flow to the pump is constricted across a narrow dam. There is a pick up on the opposite side of the sump and a 1 HP centrifugal pump rated for solids that picks up the contaminated coolant and pumps it through a big sock filter into the sump pump box. We only filter down to 200 microns. This machine is built so the way covers never see coolant, so there is little risk of grit finding its way to the ways and screws so finer filtration isn't necessary. A well implemented 200 micron bag can last a full day of production like this.
Click to expand...

Thanks for taking the time to detail all that Nathan! Very cool read!

I think after the machine is running I will start a thread where we can all chat about CNC knifemaking, it doesn't get talked about much on the boards that I've seen!
 
rmx said:
Aaron,

Once you get the CNC stuff going, you should keep your current jigs and templates and once a year, make 5-10 all handmade knives. You can number them and charge a premium. I am going to keep following you as well as Gough Knives and I look forward to owning a Gough Resolute 4 one day... the YouTube videos showed me so much and I learned a lot. I really liked the thought of each knife being handmade in a toaster oven. Maybe one day I still will?

I almost bought a Bark River Aurora LT last month, but instead I put the money in savings and, with any luck, will get in line once you start taking orders again. (Hopefully nothing will come up and I have to spend my savings on something else. With two kids and three foster kids, something always comes up... but I'm going to try and hide this cash.)

Bobby
Click to expand...

Hey Bobby!
Glad you like the knives mate! I definitely look forward to making one for you, and hopefully with the CNC setup I'll actually be able to do so!

My plan at the moment is to make roughly 4 knives per year (for sale) that will be done by hand. The plan is to auction them on eBay and have all proceeds go to charity. That way I get to have fun making one-off blades and work on my skills while also contributing to charity which is something I would like to do more of!

-Aaron
 
PEU said:
OR... instead of flood coolant you can use mist, these units are great and from time to time appear at ebay at great discounted prices

pulczFg.jpg


Years ago I purchased one because I found it at bargain price, still have to use it (don't have a mill in my shop yet)

Found this site with more info: http://www.neardrymachining.com/Index.htm
And more info at CPF (yes I'm a flashlight nut and retired maker) http://www.candlepowerforums.com/vb/showthread.php?257169-Near-dry-machining



Pablo
Click to expand...

Getting an MQL system (like a mist but less overspray) is definitely on my list as it will be useful for things like aluminum where some kind of lube/coolant is essential. I've been looking at the Fogbuster, but haven't made up my mind yet.

-Aaron
 
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