- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Messages
- 2,125
A responsible attitude.
-
The BladeForums.com 2024 Traditional Knife is available! Price is $250 ea (shipped within CONUS).
Order here: https://www.bladeforums.com/help/2024-traditional/
Rhinoceros horn!?!
- Thread starter TAH
- Start date
A responsible attitude.
The problem with this post is someone is trying to teach morals to others.
Wanting to tell someone else what is right and wrong. Next thing you know they will be telling us we can only use man made material for knife handles.
Good for the indians none of these people were around in the 1800's
I use a lot of burl woods, should I not use these so the trees would not be cut down? It is people like me that are """BAD""" use something someone else doesn't like. Piss on them. If you go to Africa ans see how much old ivory is stored in the mansions there if it was sold they could feed everyone in africa
but the government over there don't want to do that because then the price would go down so when they want to unload some they wouldn't get enough for it. The would runs on money and knifemakers and every other type of business helps keep it going. Everyone likes something different so why can't everyone just do what they like and leave the others alone. Change the channel if you don't like whats on, don't shut down the tv company.
It's me again long post, talking some sense!!!
Percy
Wanting to tell someone else what is right and wrong. Next thing you know they will be telling us we can only use man made material for knife handles.
Good for the indians none of these people were around in the 1800's
I use a lot of burl woods, should I not use these so the trees would not be cut down? It is people like me that are """BAD""" use something someone else doesn't like. Piss on them. If you go to Africa ans see how much old ivory is stored in the mansions there if it was sold they could feed everyone in africa
but the government over there don't want to do that because then the price would go down so when they want to unload some they wouldn't get enough for it. The would runs on money and knifemakers and every other type of business helps keep it going. Everyone likes something different so why can't everyone just do what they like and leave the others alone. Change the channel if you don't like whats on, don't shut down the tv company.
It's me again long post, talking some sense!!!
Percy
- Joined
- Dec 20, 2009
- Messages
- 4,421
Hi David (2knife) It sounds as if you are tiring of this and I can understand that. I can't resist, though, persuing your last statement. It is clear to me that the horn in question was taken long before rhino populations became an issue. Then they were used on knives long before the use of them became the issue that it is today. Certainly, no laws were broken. To have Ron find them and rehandle them seems to me and unreasonable position to take. Those knives are someones personal property, and they may like them just the way they are. How many other species are you willing to include? How far back would you like to go? And how many other articles of personal property would you like to have changed. You feel pretty strongly about this and it seems to me that your statement could be made much more meaningfull by something pro-active. Think of the statement you would make if YOU searched out those knives and hired Ron to rehandle them. Now that would be a statement. Even Percy might pay attention to that.
Highest regards Mark
PS, A vintage rhino horn was on "Antiques Road Show" recently it was obvious that ownership was not a problem and to sell it would not have been a problem either, I personally think that people should be able to do with their personal property whatever they they wish, within the law.
blakesnowden
Gold Member
- Joined
- Jan 5, 2008
- Messages
- 207
I am having a barbeque, to start loggerhead turtle soup, white rhino and panda bear shish-kabob's basted with a cream of mountian gorilla, and for desert; lion tailed macaque ice cream. consider yourselves invited. the topic for discussion at said barbeque is how totaly inane it would be to think that knife handle material "demand" has any effect on poaching game regardless of species.
sheathmaker
Custom Leather Sheaths
- Joined
- May 18, 2005
- Messages
- 4,650
For the purpose and opinions expressed herein,......AMEN! to Percy's amen.
Well said Mark and Blake.
Paul
Well said Mark and Blake.
Paul
- Joined
- Feb 5, 1999
- Messages
- 1,068
Mark,
Well said. This goes right back to what I said ralier. Other than making a lot of noise, preservationists and environmentalists aren't much interested in ponying up any of theiir own money. Maybe a government grant, or public donations, but their entire line of thought is for others to make the symbolic gestures or pay for whatever.
They also believe that, being the moral authorities, they have a right to speak. They do, but we just aren't required to listen or agree. They don't believe that right to speak extends to others, BTW, especially those who disagree.
Gene
Well said. This goes right back to what I said ralier. Other than making a lot of noise, preservationists and environmentalists aren't much interested in ponying up any of theiir own money. Maybe a government grant, or public donations, but their entire line of thought is for others to make the symbolic gestures or pay for whatever.
They also believe that, being the moral authorities, they have a right to speak. They do, but we just aren't required to listen or agree. They don't believe that right to speak extends to others, BTW, especially those who disagree.
Gene
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Messages
- 2,125
THE BLACK RHINO
AN ENDANGERED SPECIES
The name "rhino" conjures up the image of a prehistoric beast, a huge creature with skin of armor. This image is not surprising, since these intelligent and affectionate creatures have inhabited the Earth for 60 million years.
An extinct species of rhino that lived in Mongolia, (Baluchitherium grangeri), was the largest land mammal of all time. This hornless rhinoceros stood 18 feet (five and one-half meters) at the shoulder, was 27 feet (eight meters) long, and probably weighed 25 tons (23 metric tons), four times as much as today's African bull elephant.
This species probably died out because of climate change.
The rhino may be the source of the belief in unicorns, legendary animals whose horn was said to be a panacea for all types of ailments. In 1298, the Venetian explorer Marco Polo described Sumatran rhinos as unicorns saying:
There are wild elephants in the country, and numerous unicorns, which are very nearly as big. They have hair like that of a buffalo, feet like those of an elephant, and a horn in the middle of the forehead, which is black and very thick.
Today, all five species of rhinos are perilously close to extinction. The rate of their decline is truly astounding: in the decade of the 1970s alone, half the world's rhino population disappeared. Today, less than 15 per cent of the 1970 population remains, an estimated 10,000 to 11,000 worldwide.
The Javan and Sumatran rhinos are near extinction. Indian rhinos may be coming back from the brink. Of the two African species, the white rhino has rebounded from near extinction. (Contrary to its name, the white rhino is not really white. Its name is a mistaken translation of the Dutch word "wijde," which means "wide" and refers to the rhino's broad, square lips.)
The black rhino has not fared so well. As recently as 1970, an estimated 65,000 black rhinos could be found throughout sub-Saharan Africa. But in eastern Africa, 90 percent of them were killed in the 1970s. Now there are fewer than 2,500 left, in pockets in Zimbabwe, South Africa, Kenya, Namibia, and Tanzania.
The black rhino grows to 14 feet (four meters) long, stands over 4.5 feet (1 meter) at the shoulder, and weighs up to 3,900 pounds (1770 kg). It is recognizable by its long, pointed, prehensile upper lip and two prominent horns, the longest of which averages 20 inches (50 cm). The horn is made up of millions of tightly compacted hairlike fibers.
The black rhino is a formidable herbivore. It inhabits bush country with thick cover, grasslands, or open forest, where it browses on a wide variety of plants.
Causes of Endangerment
Overexploitation
Unlike most large mammals, habitat loss has not been a significant factor in the decline of rhinos. Rather, poaching for their horn has decimated rhino populations.
As early as the 5th century B.C., rhino horn was believed capable of rendering some poisons harmless. In Borneo, people used to hang a rhino's tail in a room where a woman was giving birth, believing it would ease labor pains. Asians used rhino horn in traditional medicines for a thousand years without threatening the species' survival.
It was not until the 1970s that rhinos declined dramatically, due to a surprising cause: the soaring price of oil. Young men in the Arab country of Yemen covet rhino horn for elaborately-carved dagger handles, symbols of wealth and status in that country. Until the 1970s, few men could afford these prized dagger handles. But Yemen and other Middle Eastern countries are rich in oil, and prices for this "black gold" climbed dramatically in that decade due to a worldwide oil shortage.
The result was a seven-fold increase in the per capita income in Yemen, a rise in wealth that made rhino horn dagger handles within the reach of almost everyone. This small country, with a population of 6 million at the time, suddenly became the world's largest importer of rhino horn.
The value of rhino horn made it enormously profitable to poach rhinos and sell them on the black market. For example, in 1990, the two horns from a single black rhino brought as much as $50,000. Just like poaching for elephant ivory, poaching for rhino horn is simply too profitable for many subsistence farmers and herders to resist.
Conservation Actions
Trade Regulation
All trade in rhino horn is prohibited, since rhinos are protected under Appendix I of CITES. The ban on trade in rhino horns has not been very successful, however. A thriving black market in rhino horn has continued.
In 1993, the United States threatened to ban legal imports of wildlife from China, which has a large wildlife trade with the United States, if China did not start taking measures to stop illegal wildlife trade. In response, China made it illegal to sell, buy, trade, or transport rhino horns and tiger bones. Illegal stockpiles of rhino horns and tiger bones remain, however.
Protected Areas and Armed Guards
Rhinos live in some of the same African parks and reserves that provide habitat for elephants. Protection of elephant habitat was not enough. Rhinos were killed in protected areas because governments could not afford to patrol the parks to stop poachers.
Now, there are so few left that many rhinos are literally kept under armed guard. They forage during the day, accompanied by guards with rifles, and they are locked up at night under armed guard.
Rhino horn is so valuable though, that poachers have killed guards to get at the rhino.
Dehorning
The rhino's plight has become so desperate that in some places conservation officials tranquilize rhinos and saw off their horns so poachers will have no cause to kill them. It is not known whether removing the horn impairs the rhino's ability to survive or reproduce. It is known, however, that in some areas, a mother rhino uses her horn to defend her young from attacks by cats and hyenas.
Captive Breeding
There are Species Survival Plans (SSP's) for four species of rhino. The Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden [Z&A] manages the black rhino. Other SSP's are: Jacksonville Zoological Park [Z&A] (white rhino); Bronx Zoo/Wildlife Conservation Park [Z&A] (Sumatran rhino); Los Angeles Zoo [Z&A] (greater one-horned Asian rhino).
Questions for Thought
Is it enough to simply prohibit trade in endangered wildlife and wildlife parts? What if the laws against wildlife trade are not enforced?
Some people think the only chance to save rhinos from extinction is to reduce demand for rhino horn. Can you think of ways to do this?
What do you think of the practice of dehorning rhinos to protect them from poachers?
AN ENDANGERED SPECIES
The name "rhino" conjures up the image of a prehistoric beast, a huge creature with skin of armor. This image is not surprising, since these intelligent and affectionate creatures have inhabited the Earth for 60 million years.
An extinct species of rhino that lived in Mongolia, (Baluchitherium grangeri), was the largest land mammal of all time. This hornless rhinoceros stood 18 feet (five and one-half meters) at the shoulder, was 27 feet (eight meters) long, and probably weighed 25 tons (23 metric tons), four times as much as today's African bull elephant.
This species probably died out because of climate change.
The rhino may be the source of the belief in unicorns, legendary animals whose horn was said to be a panacea for all types of ailments. In 1298, the Venetian explorer Marco Polo described Sumatran rhinos as unicorns saying:
There are wild elephants in the country, and numerous unicorns, which are very nearly as big. They have hair like that of a buffalo, feet like those of an elephant, and a horn in the middle of the forehead, which is black and very thick.
Today, all five species of rhinos are perilously close to extinction. The rate of their decline is truly astounding: in the decade of the 1970s alone, half the world's rhino population disappeared. Today, less than 15 per cent of the 1970 population remains, an estimated 10,000 to 11,000 worldwide.
The Javan and Sumatran rhinos are near extinction. Indian rhinos may be coming back from the brink. Of the two African species, the white rhino has rebounded from near extinction. (Contrary to its name, the white rhino is not really white. Its name is a mistaken translation of the Dutch word "wijde," which means "wide" and refers to the rhino's broad, square lips.)
The black rhino has not fared so well. As recently as 1970, an estimated 65,000 black rhinos could be found throughout sub-Saharan Africa. But in eastern Africa, 90 percent of them were killed in the 1970s. Now there are fewer than 2,500 left, in pockets in Zimbabwe, South Africa, Kenya, Namibia, and Tanzania.
The black rhino grows to 14 feet (four meters) long, stands over 4.5 feet (1 meter) at the shoulder, and weighs up to 3,900 pounds (1770 kg). It is recognizable by its long, pointed, prehensile upper lip and two prominent horns, the longest of which averages 20 inches (50 cm). The horn is made up of millions of tightly compacted hairlike fibers.
The black rhino is a formidable herbivore. It inhabits bush country with thick cover, grasslands, or open forest, where it browses on a wide variety of plants.
Causes of Endangerment
Overexploitation
Unlike most large mammals, habitat loss has not been a significant factor in the decline of rhinos. Rather, poaching for their horn has decimated rhino populations.
As early as the 5th century B.C., rhino horn was believed capable of rendering some poisons harmless. In Borneo, people used to hang a rhino's tail in a room where a woman was giving birth, believing it would ease labor pains. Asians used rhino horn in traditional medicines for a thousand years without threatening the species' survival.
It was not until the 1970s that rhinos declined dramatically, due to a surprising cause: the soaring price of oil. Young men in the Arab country of Yemen covet rhino horn for elaborately-carved dagger handles, symbols of wealth and status in that country. Until the 1970s, few men could afford these prized dagger handles. But Yemen and other Middle Eastern countries are rich in oil, and prices for this "black gold" climbed dramatically in that decade due to a worldwide oil shortage.
The result was a seven-fold increase in the per capita income in Yemen, a rise in wealth that made rhino horn dagger handles within the reach of almost everyone. This small country, with a population of 6 million at the time, suddenly became the world's largest importer of rhino horn.
The value of rhino horn made it enormously profitable to poach rhinos and sell them on the black market. For example, in 1990, the two horns from a single black rhino brought as much as $50,000. Just like poaching for elephant ivory, poaching for rhino horn is simply too profitable for many subsistence farmers and herders to resist.
Conservation Actions
Trade Regulation
All trade in rhino horn is prohibited, since rhinos are protected under Appendix I of CITES. The ban on trade in rhino horns has not been very successful, however. A thriving black market in rhino horn has continued.
In 1993, the United States threatened to ban legal imports of wildlife from China, which has a large wildlife trade with the United States, if China did not start taking measures to stop illegal wildlife trade. In response, China made it illegal to sell, buy, trade, or transport rhino horns and tiger bones. Illegal stockpiles of rhino horns and tiger bones remain, however.
Protected Areas and Armed Guards
Rhinos live in some of the same African parks and reserves that provide habitat for elephants. Protection of elephant habitat was not enough. Rhinos were killed in protected areas because governments could not afford to patrol the parks to stop poachers.
Now, there are so few left that many rhinos are literally kept under armed guard. They forage during the day, accompanied by guards with rifles, and they are locked up at night under armed guard.
Rhino horn is so valuable though, that poachers have killed guards to get at the rhino.
Dehorning
The rhino's plight has become so desperate that in some places conservation officials tranquilize rhinos and saw off their horns so poachers will have no cause to kill them. It is not known whether removing the horn impairs the rhino's ability to survive or reproduce. It is known, however, that in some areas, a mother rhino uses her horn to defend her young from attacks by cats and hyenas.
Captive Breeding
There are Species Survival Plans (SSP's) for four species of rhino. The Cincinnati Zoo and Botanical Garden [Z&A] manages the black rhino. Other SSP's are: Jacksonville Zoological Park [Z&A] (white rhino); Bronx Zoo/Wildlife Conservation Park [Z&A] (Sumatran rhino); Los Angeles Zoo [Z&A] (greater one-horned Asian rhino).
Questions for Thought
Is it enough to simply prohibit trade in endangered wildlife and wildlife parts? What if the laws against wildlife trade are not enforced?
Some people think the only chance to save rhinos from extinction is to reduce demand for rhino horn. Can you think of ways to do this?
What do you think of the practice of dehorning rhinos to protect them from poachers?
- Joined
- Feb 5, 1999
- Messages
- 1,068
Thank you for your Wikipedia treatise on the rhino. You still haven't figured out that each post just validates my earlier statements.
You stated your position. Great.
You now demand that we all listen to more of your position statement and that we all agree. Wrong.
How about taking your exploitation speech to the folks who are doing the exploiting. Inform them of their need to listen and change. We'll care it Rhino Speak Survival. Franlly, I don't think you would for long.
You are being a troll. Period. Obviously a product of our new educational system, where symbolism is so much better than reality. But a troll, nonetheless.
Mods, can we move this to W&C? It is a much better environment for trolls.
Gene
You stated your position. Great.
You now demand that we all listen to more of your position statement and that we all agree. Wrong.
How about taking your exploitation speech to the folks who are doing the exploiting. Inform them of their need to listen and change. We'll care it Rhino Speak Survival. Franlly, I don't think you would for long.
You are being a troll. Period. Obviously a product of our new educational system, where symbolism is so much better than reality. But a troll, nonetheless.
Mods, can we move this to W&C? It is a much better environment for trolls.
Gene
- Joined
- Mar 13, 2002
- Messages
- 2,125
Last edited:
- Joined
- Feb 6, 2010
- Messages
- 28
I think that if your activity is contributing to the creation or continuance of a market for these treasured and endangered species, that perhaps you could take another look at it.
I think that if you have to "justify" your actions than perhaps you already know that it is questionable.
Having said that, we all make mistakes, we all try to put a glossy front on them so they don't look so bad. We even keep doing the same thing to Prove that it is OK, justifying it the while.
Sometimes we just have to take another look at it all and form a new opinion. Live life on a new higher level of personal ethics, based on our own observations and not blindly follow the crowd. Deep down inside we all know what's right and what's not.
I think that if you have to "justify" your actions than perhaps you already know that it is questionable.
Having said that, we all make mistakes, we all try to put a glossy front on them so they don't look so bad. We even keep doing the same thing to Prove that it is OK, justifying it the while.
Sometimes we just have to take another look at it all and form a new opinion. Live life on a new higher level of personal ethics, based on our own observations and not blindly follow the crowd. Deep down inside we all know what's right and what's not.
- Joined
- Feb 5, 1999
- Messages
- 1,068
2knife,
I'll pass that on to Ron.
Gene
I'll pass that on to Ron.
Gene
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,138
Since I am the original poster, I contacted the dealer and gave him this information. Hopefully, he will follow up with Ron and make any necessary corrections to the discription. :thumbup:
...
The problem is liberals that don't like meat or animal parts think everyone should do what they like,
Conservatives that don't like animal parts or meat eat something else and keep their mouth shut about what someone else eats....
I again must confess my surprise at how contentious and unusual the debate on the original post has become. The lack of civility with differing and in some cases ignorant views is quite shocking to me. What "liberals" and "conservatives" have to do with this debate is totally unclear to me. I know a few conservatives that don't eat meat. I also know many liberals who do. I have big trouble with many views that purportedly are held by conservatives that are not accurate when viewed historically. One thing I think we can agree on is that conservatives don't "keep their mouth shut ...." Statements like these have no place in our debate; leave them to the politicians, I say.
Paul
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,138
Received this friendly reply back from the dealer. He said he would let me know the end result.
"I just took a good look at the knife again. The knife was sold to me as Rhino horn and it sure looks like Rhino horn to me. It has much more grain in it than Cape Buffalo horn and has more of a brownish cast. It's interesting...I will give Ron a call to jog his memory."
- Joined
- Dec 10, 2006
- Messages
- 5,971
Please find this book in order to understand some of the troubles regarding elephant ivory. This is also relevant to Rhino’s.
That what one finds on the internet is not always true when it comes to the management of these endangered species. Culling is still a necessary part of wildlife management and it brings billons of Rands into our country as the South African National Parks (http://www.sanparks.org/) tender the license for many of these animals either to private game farms or for culling. This is the standard practice in many African countries.
There is a recent discussion to lift the strict ivory and Rhino trade agreements. I am not for it. If one reads the book I advise one will understand why.
I will have a more in depth, researched post in future. I have to go now.
That what one finds on the internet is not always true when it comes to the management of these endangered species. Culling is still a necessary part of wildlife management and it brings billons of Rands into our country as the South African National Parks (http://www.sanparks.org/) tender the license for many of these animals either to private game farms or for culling. This is the standard practice in many African countries.
There is a recent discussion to lift the strict ivory and Rhino trade agreements. I am not for it. If one reads the book I advise one will understand why.
I will have a more in depth, researched post in future. I have to go now.
- Joined
- Jul 3, 2001
- Messages
- 6,138
Here is the follow up from the dealer:
"I just got off the phone with Ron, we spoke for about 30 minutes. The knife was made a while ago so he had a hard time remembering it. He said he might have gotten this Rhino Horn from Japan for a Japanese client. That made sense because the knife just came out of a Japanese collection. Who ever spoke to Ron told him the handle was black. It only looks that way in my photo. It is not black in person, it is brownish. That's the story."
Ron Lake is very highly regarded in the custom knife world. I don't think anyone should criticize him unless you know for sure the history of this particular rhino horn. As someone already mentioned, it could have come from an old trophy laying around. Like it or not, those old trophies do exist.
