Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

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The funniest part of the whole thing is that I've spent the last few weeks working on a knife for my dad, which is intentionally run at 59 Rockwell.
Given the tolerance in testing, it might actually be at 58.6...and therefore complete garbage according to the internet! :D

The real villain though is not the internet guy I don't know, or Hinderer. It is the damn USPS for still not getting the G-10 to me required to finish the damn knife! The UPS people just showed up with the Kydex 4 minutes ago, and it was ordered well over a week after the G-10 shipped with USPS.

USPS...
 
I'm not going to argue either their points or who is right or wrong.

I'll point out that if you have a business you need to protect it. I never get in a place where I want to try to take food out of the mouths of someones family. It can lead to bad outcomes. Small business owners often put everything they and their family have into it and failing means letting their family go without. If you build a business based in part on your reputation and knowledge you would be foolish not to protect it IMO.
 
True, and likewise, no one appointed Rick Hinderer the arbiter of the right way to do things. They can each have their own opinion and they're entitled to express them.
I think the guy that literally made the knife has a little more credibility on HIS knives than some amateur in a garage criticizing said knives to boost his follower count.
 
Brian Kim next week:
“I measured the centering of Spyderco knives and 1 in 12 knives are off-center. Overpriced. Here’s a link to my GoFundMe. Donate to my cause as I will NOT be silenced! I promise I will post receipts of all my legal fees.. no really I will!”
 
Cool, then stop responding. It’s voluntary.

You said “nervous”… and I’m trying to tell you that just because someone sends a c&d doesn’t mean they’re “nervous”. The word “nervous” assumes guilt or anxiety around a known misdoing.. and your use of it demonstrates that you think Hinderer knowingly pushed out faulty product and used the C&D to cover it up. Is that what you’re implying?

Don’t try to put words in my mouth.
This is what nervous means. And you knew what I meant. Arguing for the sake of arguing is a waste of time.
 
Don’t try to put words in my mouth.
This is what nervous means. And you knew what I meant. Arguing for the sake of arguing is a waste of time.
Listen to me very carefully, as I try to explain this as simply as possible. Sending a cease & desist letter doesn’t mean someone is “nervous” about something. You can patronize all you like with your little links to Webster definitions but you’re the one assuming Hinderer is “nervous” about the -0.4 out of tolerance hardness some amateur test concluded.

Hinderer is about as nervous as “The Dude” in a bowling alley right now. TK? He’s definitely nervous right now, because life is about to get real for him when he faces a lawsuit he could’ve avoided by not being a pretentious doucher.
 
Listen to me very carefully, as I try to explain this as simply as possible. Sending a cease & desist letter doesn’t mean someone is “nervous” about something. You can patronize all you like with your little links to Webster definitions but you’re the one assuming Hinderer is “nervous” about the -0.4 out of tolerance hardness some amateur test concluded.

Hinderer is about as nervous as “The Dude” in a bowling alley right now. TK? He’s definitely nervous right now, because life is about to get real for him when he faces a lawsuit he could’ve avoided by not being a pretentious doucher.

You didn’t like my choice of word, but know what I meant. Give it a rest.
 
You're grossly exaggerating what Brian said. He's owned multiple Hinderers and his main complaint applies to nearly all big producers. But to answer your question, I wouldn't have shrugged my shoulders. I would have said, "I'm sorry if you got an out-of-spec blade. Send it in, and if we can confirm on our equipment I'll replace it free of charge." And you know what? If he had done that, I'm quite sure Brian would have made another video praising Rick's excellent customer service and lauding RHK for standing behind their product.
Instead he parted the knife out and claims to have thrown away the blade. Genius move right there. 🙄
 
Instead he parted the knife out and claims to have thrown away the blade. Genius move right there. 🙄
Oh he’s about to lose big time if he did that. That was his only piece of evidence that could’ve potentially protected him in court.
 
Alright, I'm going to clarify a few things. I don't typically hang out in Bladeforums, so I won't be going back and forth with anyone.
1. Contrary to what the C&D says, Rick Hinderer never reached out to me. Even when we were in the same chat room during the USA Made Blade livestream, Rick did not respond to me when I @'d him. When I joined the livestream with Whitty to talk about the situation, Rick chose to lurk in the comments rather than defend his position publicly.
2. I do not care about .2 Rockwell points. At all. My argument was that M390/20CV/204P are high wear resistance steel variants best run harder if used at all. I said 59 HRC M390 (the lower end of Hinderer's target range) is does not perform satisfactorily for me. 61 HRC (the higher end) I find personally acceptable, though I prefer higher in a high performance cutting tool. Keep in mind 59-61 is a very wide range. Additionally, I stated that if Hinderer's goal is durable, robust blades then perhaps a steel like 3V or MagnaCut would be more appropriate rather than taking a steel with low toughness by design (due to high carbide volume) and lowering its hardness to take away one of its only advantages as a blade steel. For those unfamiliar with the effect of hardness on edge retention, please see controlled cut tests by people like outpost76.
3. I have covered this numerous times, but the low thermal conductivity of steel means heat travels very slowly from the point of introduction. Grinding a flipper tab off under coolant would not affect the hardness on the flats where the blade was tested. This can be easily proven by testing any blade on the flats before grinding off the flipper tab slowly and under coolant, and then testing it again afterwards. The result will be the same. These are repeatable and easy to perform tests. In addition, I find it ironic that Hinderer would complain about a flipper tab when A) there is video evidence of him grinding with no coolant on Youtube, B) he was doing so on the bevels themselves C) recent Instagram posts show him sharpening on a belt grinder with no coolant again which has been shown by knifesteelnerds and others to lower the hardness at the edge where it matters and cause burning and fatigue at the apex.
4. Other companies have sent me soft blades before, as lemons and one-offs happen. WE Knives for example apologized and sent me a new blade with proper heat treat when I got a soft Bishop. I applauded them for it.
5. A +- .5 range can go either way. Assuming that something at 58.8 average Rockwell is automatically 59.3 doesn't make sense. It could also be 58.3. I left the door open to it possibly being in spec because, again, I do not care. I personally think the spec is suboptimal.
6. I did not say Hinderer uses "soft steel" in general. I made no claims about their other blade steels, except for their S45VN which I actually complimented because it performed well in cut testing. I took issue only with the spec and performance of their 20CV, nothing more nothing less.
7. The claim Hinderer has made and wants me to make in an apology video that M390 at 62 HRC or above is "chippy" would not only force me to lie because it isn't true, but also undermine companies doing a good job. Clark runs M390 at 63 HRC. Cultrotech runs it 62-64 HRC using Yanook heat treating. Spyderco runs Paramilitaries at 62 HRC. These knives perform well. Why should I say that good knives are bad just because Hinderer is upset? Take a 62 HRC M390 Para2 and a 59 HRC Hinderer (in spec). Cut test them. Tell me which performs better.
8. I'm sorry for being poor. I just started making knives in earnest. I promised to show receipts and donate any money not used on the gofundme to charity. If you don't believe me, that is your right. I'm just a stranger to you, especially if you've never heard of me before. However, I do not agree that being poor means I should be shit on by a larger company for having my own opinions on proper steel choice, optimal heat treat, and applicable edge geometries.
 
It all smells a bit fishy to me, yet people are throwing money his way because he’s standing up for the knife community. Uh huh…sure
Yeah that’s definitely suspect. He’s the one that made a big deal and put Hinderer on blast, yet he junks the only evidence he has? Now he can’t even send it to a 3rd party to get hardness verified. Yeah he needs to return all that GoFundMe money and apologize to Hinderer publicly, or get sued and lose. There really is no other option for him now.
 
Alright, I'm going to clarify a few things. I don't typically hang out in Bladeforums, so I won't be going back and forth with anyone.
What’s the fun in that?
1. Contrary to what the C&D says, Rick Hinderer never reached out to me. Even when we were in the same chat room during the USA Made Blade livestream, Rick did not respond to me when I @'d him. When I joined the livestream with Whitty to talk about the situation, Rick chose to lurk in the comments rather than defend his position publicly.
He doesn’t owe you a response. You wanted to play in the gutter and now you’re mad he won’t roll around in it with you? Psssh.
2. I do not care about .2 Rockwell points. At all. My argument was that M390/20CV/204P are high wear resistance steel variants best run harder if used at all. I said 59 HRC M390 (the lower end of Hinderer's target range) is does not perform satisfactorily for me. 61 HRC (the higher end) I find personally acceptable, though I prefer higher in a high performance cutting tool. Keep in mind 59-61 is a very wide range. Additionally, I stated that if Hinderer's goal is durable, robust blades then perhaps a steel like 3V or MagnaCut would be more appropriate rather than taking a steel with low toughness by design (due to high carbide volume) and lowering its hardness to take away one of its only advantages as a blade steel. For those unfamiliar with the effect of hardness on edge retention, please see controlled cut tests by people like outpost76.
Clearly you do, if you put Hinderer on blast over it and said the knives are “overpriced”.
3. I have covered this numerous times, but the low thermal conductivity of steel means heat travels very slowly from the point of introduction. Grinding a flipper tab off under coolant would not affect the hardness on the flats where the blade was tested. This can be easily proven by testing any blade on the flats before grinding off the flipper tab slowly and under coolant, and then testing it again afterwards. The result will be the same. These are repeatable and easy to perform tests. In addition, I find it ironic that Hinderer would complain about a flipper tab when A) there is video evidence of him grinding with no coolant on Youtube, B) he was doing so on the bevels themselves C) recent Instagram posts show him sharpening on a belt grinder with no coolant again which has been shown by knifesteelnerds and others to lower the hardness at the edge where it matters and cause burning and fatigue at the apex.
4. Other companies have sent me soft blades before, as lemons and one-offs happen. WE Knives for example apologized and sent me a new blade with proper heat treat when I got a soft Bishop. I applauded them for it.
5. A +- .5 range can go either way. Assuming that something at 58.8 average Rockwell is automatically 59.3 doesn't make sense. It could also be 58.3. I left the door open to it possibly being in spec because, again, I do not care. I personally think the spec is suboptimal.
6. I did not say Hinderer uses "soft steel" in general. I made no claims about their other blade steels, except for their S45VN which I actually complimented because it performed well in cut testing. I took issue only with the spec and performance of their 20CV, nothing more nothing less.
7. The claim Hinderer has made and wants me to make in an apology video that M390 at 62 HRC or above is "chippy" would not only force me to lie because it isn't true, but also undermine companies doing a good job. Clark runs M390 at 63 HRC. Cultrotech runs it 62-64 HRC using Yanook heat treating. Spyderco runs Paramilitaries at 62 HRC. These knives perform well. Why should I say that good knives are bad just because Hinderer is upset? Take a 62 HRC M390 Para2 and a 59 HRC Hinderer (in spec). Cut test them. Tell me which performs better.
8. I'm sorry for being poor. I just started making knives in earnest. I promised to show receipts and donate any money not used on the gofundme to charity. If you don't believe me, that is your right. I'm just a stranger to you, especially if you've never heard of me before. However, I do not agree that being poor means I should be shit on by a larger company for having my own opinions on proper steel choice, optimal heat treat, and applicable edge geometries.
A member above informed us you scrapped the knife for parts and threw away the blade. Why? Why make such a big stink out of fighting Hinderer and doing what is right and throwing away the only thing that could’ve validated your claims?

Be sure and let us know what you ultimately decide to spend all that GoFundMe money on.. because it sure as hell won’t be “legal fees”.. unless that’s a type of drink the beach bar makes at the resort you stay at.
 
What’s the fun in that?

He doesn’t owe you a response. You wanted to play in the gutter and now you’re mad he won’t roll around in it with you? Psssh.

Clearly you do, if you put Hinderer on blast over it and said the knives are “overpriced”.

A member above informed us you scrapped the knife for parts and threw away the blade. Why? Why make such a big stink out of fighting Hinderer and doing what is right and throwing away the only thing that could’ve validated your claims?

Be sure and let us know what you ultimately decide to spend all that GoFundMe money on.. because it sure as hell won’t be “legal fees”.. unless that’s a type of drink the beach bar makes at the resort you stay at.

I love how you just ignore all the completely valid points TK is making, and just argue your opinions and feelings. Nice.

Steel is steel. Doesn't matter that hinderer made the knife, HRC testing doesn't lie.

To your last point- he already said all the money would have receipts on usage, and excess would get donated to DV shelters or kniferights. Stop with your fake opinions with no basis, constant bad faith arguments. Good lord.
 
I love how you just ignore all the completely valid points TK is making, and just argue your opinions and feelings. Nice.
Valid? Hinderer doesn’t seem to think so. That makes two of us... at least.
Steel is steel.
Wow, thank you for the sage words. “Steel is steel”? Incredible.
Doesn't matter that hinderer made the knife, HRC testing doesn't lie.
It actually does “matter” that he made it because he knows who he outsources any work to and what they do to it.. I.e., heat treating. Someone already explained how HRC testing isn’t some simple concept any rumdum can perform, but hey… you’re entitled (to your opinion).
To your last point- he already said all the money would have receipts on usage, and excess would get donated to DV shelters or kniferights. Stop with your fake opinions with no basis, constant bad faith arguments. Good lord.
Until he actually spends that money on legal fees, I’ll say whatever the hell I want about it.. to include what many MANY people do with GoFundMe money they claim will go to a good cause: vacations, cars, houses, and fun.
 
Alright, I'm going to clarify a few things. I don't typically hang out in Bladeforums, so I won't be going back and forth with anyone.
1. Contrary to what the C&D says, Rick Hinderer never reached out to me. Even when we were in the same chat room during the USA Made Blade livestream, Rick did not respond to me when I @'d him. When I joined the livestream with Whitty to talk about the situation, Rick chose to lurk in the comments rather than defend his position publicly.
2. I do not care about .2 Rockwell points. At all. My argument was that M390/20CV/204P are high wear resistance steel variants best run harder if used at all. I said 59 HRC M390 (the lower end of Hinderer's target range) is does not perform satisfactorily for me. 61 HRC (the higher end) I find personally acceptable, though I prefer higher in a high performance cutting tool. Keep in mind 59-61 is a very wide range. Additionally, I stated that if Hinderer's goal is durable, robust blades then perhaps a steel like 3V or MagnaCut would be more appropriate rather than taking a steel with low toughness by design (due to high carbide volume) and lowering its hardness to take away one of its only advantages as a blade steel. For those unfamiliar with the effect of hardness on edge retention, please see controlled cut tests by people like outpost76.
3. I have covered this numerous times, but the low thermal conductivity of steel means heat travels very slowly from the point of introduction. Grinding a flipper tab off under coolant would not affect the hardness on the flats where the blade was tested. This can be easily proven by testing any blade on the flats before grinding off the flipper tab slowly and under coolant, and then testing it again afterwards. The result will be the same. These are repeatable and easy to perform tests. In addition, I find it ironic that Hinderer would complain about a flipper tab when A) there is video evidence of him grinding with no coolant on Youtube, B) he was doing so on the bevels themselves C) recent Instagram posts show him sharpening on a belt grinder with no coolant again which has been shown by knifesteelnerds and others to lower the hardness at the edge where it matters and cause burning and fatigue at the apex.
4. Other companies have sent me soft blades before, as lemons and one-offs happen. WE Knives for example apologized and sent me a new blade with proper heat treat when I got a soft Bishop. I applauded them for it.
5. A +- .5 range can go either way. Assuming that something at 58.8 average Rockwell is automatically 59.3 doesn't make sense. It could also be 58.3. I left the door open to it possibly being in spec because, again, I do not care. I personally think the spec is suboptimal.
6. I did not say Hinderer uses "soft steel" in general. I made no claims about their other blade steels, except for their S45VN which I actually complimented because it performed well in cut testing. I took issue only with the spec and performance of their 20CV, nothing more nothing less.
7. The claim Hinderer has made and wants me to make in an apology video that M390 at 62 HRC or above is "chippy" would not only force me to lie because it isn't true, but also undermine companies doing a good job. Clark runs M390 at 63 HRC. Cultrotech runs it 62-64 HRC using Yanook heat treating. Spyderco runs Paramilitaries at 62 HRC. These knives perform well. Why should I say that good knives are bad just because Hinderer is upset? Take a 62 HRC M390 Para2 and a 59 HRC Hinderer (in spec). Cut test them. Tell me which performs better.
8. I'm sorry for being poor. I just started making knives in earnest. I promised to show receipts and donate any money not used on the gofundme to charity. If you don't believe me, that is your right. I'm just a stranger to you, especially if you've never heard of me before. However, I do not agree that being poor means I should be shit on by a larger company for having my own opinions on proper steel choice, optimal heat treat, and applicable edge geometries.
Honestly, your best move right now is to stop trying to continue this drama. Pretend hinderer doesn't exist and go about your buisiness. Don't publically talk about hinderer for a couple months. Stop trying to rally the troops to fight off this "evil threat" that basically just sent you a legal nastygram. It will only fan the flames and end up bad for you. Be the bigger person and overcome the ego.
 
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