Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

[King of the Cheese]

Honestly, your best move right now is to stop trying to continue this drama. Pretend hinderer doesn't exist and go about your buisiness. Don't publically talk about hinderer for a couple months. Stop trying to rally the troops to fight off this "evil threat" that basically just sent you a legal nastygram. It will only fan the flames and end up bad for you. Be the bigger person and overcome the ego.

“But muh likes and follower count!”

 

[Quiet]

Alright, I'm going to clarify a few things. I don't typically hang out in Bladeforums, so I won't be going back and forth with anyone.
1. Contrary to what the C&D says, Rick Hinderer never reached out to me. Even when we were in the same chat room during the USA Made Blade livestream, Rick did not respond to me when I @'d him. When I joined the livestream with Whitty to talk about the situation, Rick chose to lurk in the comments rather than defend his position publicly.
2. I do not care about .2 Rockwell points. At all. My argument was that M390/20CV/204P are high wear resistance steel variants best run harder if used at all. I said 59 HRC M390 (the lower end of Hinderer's target range) is does not perform satisfactorily for me. 61 HRC (the higher end) I find personally acceptable, though I prefer higher in a high performance cutting tool. Keep in mind 59-61 is a very wide range. Additionally, I stated that if Hinderer's goal is durable, robust blades then perhaps a steel like 3V or MagnaCut would be more appropriate rather than taking a steel with low toughness by design (due to high carbide volume) and lowering its hardness to take away one of its only advantages as a blade steel. For those unfamiliar with the effect of hardness on edge retention, please see controlled cut tests by people like outpost76.
3. I have covered this numerous times, but the low thermal conductivity of steel means heat travels very slowly from the point of introduction. Grinding a flipper tab off under coolant would not affect the hardness on the flats where the blade was tested. This can be easily proven by testing any blade on the flats before grinding off the flipper tab slowly and under coolant, and then testing it again afterwards. The result will be the same. These are repeatable and easy to perform tests. In addition, I find it ironic that Hinderer would complain about a flipper tab when A) there is video evidence of him grinding with no coolant on Youtube, B) he was doing so on the bevels themselves C) recent Instagram posts show him sharpening on a belt grinder with no coolant again which has been shown by knifesteelnerds and others to lower the hardness at the edge where it matters and cause burning and fatigue at the apex.
4. Other companies have sent me soft blades before, as lemons and one-offs happen. WE Knives for example apologized and sent me a new blade with proper heat treat when I got a soft Bishop. I applauded them for it.
5. A +- .5 range can go either way. Assuming that something at 58.8 average Rockwell is automatically 59.3 doesn't make sense. It could also be 58.3. I left the door open to it possibly being in spec because, again, I do not care. I personally think the spec is suboptimal.
6. I did not say Hinderer uses "soft steel" in general. I made no claims about their other blade steels, except for their S45VN which I actually complimented because it performed well in cut testing. I took issue only with the spec and performance of their 20CV, nothing more nothing less.
7. The claim Hinderer has made and wants me to make in an apology video that M390 at 62 HRC or above is "chippy" would not only force me to lie because it isn't true, but also undermine companies doing a good job. Clark runs M390 at 63 HRC. Cultrotech runs it 62-64 HRC using Yanook heat treating. Spyderco runs Paramilitaries at 62 HRC. These knives perform well. Why should I say that good knives are bad just because Hinderer is upset? Take a 62 HRC M390 Para2 and a 59 HRC Hinderer (in spec). Cut test them. Tell me which performs better.
8. I'm sorry for being poor. I just started making knives in earnest. I promised to show receipts and donate any money not used on the gofundme to charity. If you don't believe me, that is your right. I'm just a stranger to you, especially if you've never heard of me before. However, I do not agree that being poor means I should be shit on by a larger company for having my own opinions on proper steel choice, optimal heat treat, and applicable edge geometries.

What I want to know is which of your follower fanboys alerted you to the fact that this was being discussed here?

Also, what made you think that Hinderer owed you any sort of response whatsoever on your amateur hour callout?

 

[POCEH KOCEB]

His complaint is that he thinks knife makers, including Hinderer, should be running M390 harder than the target 59-61 range, and that range is a feature of the knife.

Higher hardness will only cut longer with edge angle, properly chosen for the particular, behind the edge thickness, optimal for the particular steel.
‘Generally speaking, geometry cuts longer, everything else is “secondary”
‘Your “Brian” needs to learn few things before teaching people what is the optimal HRC of their own product.

 

[Quiet]

I love how you just ignore all the completely valid points TK is making, and just argue your opinions and feelings. Nice.

Steel is steel. Doesn't matter that hinderer made the knife, HRC testing doesn't lie.

To your last point- he already said all the money would have receipts on usage, and excess would get donated to DV shelters or kniferights. Stop with your fake opinions with no basis, constant bad faith arguments. Good lord.

It's already been explained how difficult this is, and how TK could be wrong. I don't know TK or trust any claims he's made, so why would I believe his test was perfectly done, and the results are to be taken fully as fact?

 

[merkon]

Having personally done HRC testing before... it's not actually hard (no pun intended). Yes, you need a calibrated machine, etc, as TK has. You put the metal in, it goes til it dimples, you have a result. You all need to stop talking out of your asses about "how difficult it is" without any actual knowledge on the subject, my god.

 

[3D Anvil]

Higher hardness will only cut longer with edge angle, properly chosen for the particular, behind the edge thickness, optimal for the particular steel.
‘Generally speaking, geometry cuts longer, everything else is “secondary”
‘Your “Brian” needs to learn few things before teaching people what is the optimal HRC of their own product.

All else being equal, higher hrc will cut longer. That's a fact.

 

[Quiet]

Having personally done HRC testing before... it's not actually hard (no pun intended). Yes, you need a calibrated machine, etc, as TK has. You put the metal in, it goes til it dimples, you have a result. You all need to stop talking out of your asses about "how difficult it is" without any actual knowledge on the subject, my god.

Yeah, I don't believe you either, sorry (not sorry).

 

[3D Anvil]

Having personally done HRC testing before... it's not actually hard (no pun intended). Yes, you need a calibrated machine, etc, as TK has. You put the metal in, it goes til it dimples, you have a result. You all need to stop talking out of your asses about "how difficult it is" without any actual knowledge on the subject, my god.

Exactly. And the result shows up on a dial. I don't know what all this BS about "projecting" is about.

 

[merkon]

Yeah, I don't believe you either, sorry (not sorry).

Gotta love when people are presented with evidence then deny the evidence.

Here's a video of how easy it is, and the principles behind it.

It's not complex. Insert metal, poke metal, read result.

 

[3D Anvil]

What I want to know is which of your follower fanboys alerted you to the fact that this was being discussed here?

Also, what made you think that Hinderer owed you any sort of response whatsoever on your amateur hour callout?

Also, why have y'all been claiming that Brian failed to reach out to RH if you don't think it's important?

 

[scarysamcary]

I do not agree that being poor means I should be shit on by a larger company for having my own opinions on proper steel choice, optimal heat treat, and applicable edge geometries.

man, FOH with that BS! Who the hell ever said anything like that? You are not a victim here! you talked crap about someone's work and that pissed them off enough to demand that you stop. Then you made an even bigger deal out of it by sharing the details with your followers in hopes of creating drama that might get you some extra attention!

F#@$ing influencer nonsense!

 

[stabman]

Best Practices Rockwell Hardness Testing - Buehler - Metallography Equipment & Supplies for Sample Preparation

Hardness, as applied to most materials, and in particular metals, is a valuable, revealing, and commonly employed mechanical test that has been in use in

www.buehler.com

"Paramount to accurate and reliable Rockwell hardness results is ensuring that the operators and the methods used are following proper test technique and practice.
Failure to properly prepare and execute a Rockwell hardness test can result in compromised test data or false readings,"

"Daily indirect performance verification of the testing instrument is also important; the scales being used should be verified using standardized test blocks or coupons.
Five total readings should be made in the verification process; the measured values must fall within the tolerance stated on block and the block certificate."

"ASTM recommends annual maintenance and verification of a Rockwell tester and more frequent verification under heavy use or extreme conditions. Verification should be performed by an accredited verifying agency and the report should follow and reference ASTM E18 Rockwell test method."

 

[merkon]

Best Practices Rockwell Hardness Testing - Buehler - Metallography Equipment & Supplies for Sample Preparation

Hardness, as applied to most materials, and in particular metals, is a valuable, revealing, and commonly employed mechanical test that has been in use in

www.buehler.com

"Paramount to accurate and reliable Rockwell hardness results is ensuring that the operators and the methods used are following proper test technique and practice.
Failure to properly prepare and execute a Rockwell hardness test can result in compromised test data or false readings,"

"Daily indirect performance verification of the testing instrument is also important; the scales being used should be verified using standardized test blocks or coupons.
Five total readings should be made in the verification process; the measured values must fall within the tolerance stated on block and the block certificate."

"ASTM recommends annual maintenance and verification of a Rockwell tester and more frequent verification under heavy use or extreme conditions. Verification should be performed by an accredited verifying agency and the report should follow and reference ASTM E18 Rockwell test method."

Yes? Aka, calibrate your machine using the calibrated blocks. Make sure you check it daily before use. If you use it a lot, get it maintained annually. None of this is complicated.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Alright, I'm going to clarify a few things. I don't typically hang out in Bladeforums, so I won't be going back and forth with anyone.
1. Contrary to what the C&D says, Rick Hinderer never reached out to me. Even when we were in the same chat room during the USA Made Blade livestream, Rick did not respond to me when I @'d him. When I joined the livestream with Whitty to talk about the situation, Rick chose to lurk in the comments rather than defend his position publicly.
2. I do not care about .2 Rockwell points. At all. My argument was that M390/20CV/204P are high wear resistance steel variants best run harder if used at all. I said 59 HRC M390 (the lower end of Hinderer's target range) is does not perform satisfactorily for me. 61 HRC (the higher end) I find personally acceptable, though I prefer higher in a high performance cutting tool. Keep in mind 59-61 is a very wide range. Additionally, I stated that if Hinderer's goal is durable, robust blades then perhaps a steel like 3V or MagnaCut would be more appropriate rather than taking a steel with low toughness by design (due to high carbide volume) and lowering its hardness to take away one of its only advantages as a blade steel. For those unfamiliar with the effect of hardness on edge retention, please see controlled cut tests by people like outpost76.
3. I have covered this numerous times, but the low thermal conductivity of steel means heat travels very slowly from the point of introduction. Grinding a flipper tab off under coolant would not affect the hardness on the flats where the blade was tested. This can be easily proven by testing any blade on the flats before grinding off the flipper tab slowly and under coolant, and then testing it again afterwards. The result will be the same. These are repeatable and easy to perform tests. In addition, I find it ironic that Hinderer would complain about a flipper tab when A) there is video evidence of him grinding with no coolant on Youtube, B) he was doing so on the bevels themselves C) recent Instagram posts show him sharpening on a belt grinder with no coolant again which has been shown by knifesteelnerds and others to lower the hardness at the edge where it matters and cause burning and fatigue at the apex.
4. Other companies have sent me soft blades before, as lemons and one-offs happen. WE Knives for example apologized and sent me a new blade with proper heat treat when I got a soft Bishop. I applauded them for it.
5. A +- .5 range can go either way. Assuming that something at 58.8 average Rockwell is automatically 59.3 doesn't make sense. It could also be 58.3. I left the door open to it possibly being in spec because, again, I do not care. I personally think the spec is suboptimal.
6. I did not say Hinderer uses "soft steel" in general. I made no claims about their other blade steels, except for their S45VN which I actually complimented because it performed well in cut testing. I took issue only with the spec and performance of their 20CV, nothing more nothing less.
7. The claim Hinderer has made and wants me to make in an apology video that M390 at 62 HRC or above is "chippy" would not only force me to lie because it isn't true, but also undermine companies doing a good job. Clark runs M390 at 63 HRC. Cultrotech runs it 62-64 HRC using Yanook heat treating. Spyderco runs Paramilitaries at 62 HRC. These knives perform well. Why should I say that good knives are bad just because Hinderer is upset? Take a 62 HRC M390 Para2 and a 59 HRC Hinderer (in spec). Cut test them. Tell me which performs better.
8. I'm sorry for being poor. I just started making knives in earnest. I promised to show receipts and donate any money not used on the gofundme to charity. If you don't believe me, that is your right. I'm just a stranger to you, especially if you've never heard of me before. However, I do not agree that being poor means I should be shit on by a larger company for having my own opinions on proper steel choice, optimal heat treat, and applicable edge geometries.

Assuming everything you're saying is in good faith I very strongly recommend that you refrain from commenting or making any claims concerning this in any public forum until you've consulted a lawyer, including Instagram, YouTube or any other social media platform.

 

[King of the Cheese]

Gotta love when people are presented with evidence then deny the evidence.

Here's a video of how easy it is, and the principles behind it.

It's not complex. Insert metal, poke metal, read result.

Why do you think some guy in his garage gets better results than a professional? “Well.. uh.. because… well I just like TK more”

 

[Quiet]

Gotta love when people are presented with evidence then deny the evidence.

Here's a video of how easy it is, and the principles behind it.

It's not complex. Insert metal, poke metal, read result.

What evidence? Also, hey, first time caller with a quick question: can you confirm that that machine was correctly calibrated? Thanks!

 

[Quiet]

Also, why have y'all been claiming that Brian failed to reach out to RH if you don't think it's important?

At this point, I don't believe anything TK says, because his motives (ie: not getting sued) are now suspect. He released the C&D letter in the hopes that it would turn public opinion against RHK (which it has). He now gets to enjoy the results of that. I don't see the issue.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

What evidence? Also, hey, first time caller with a quick question: can you confirm that that machine was correctly calibrated? Thanks!

Other side to the question: Can someone confirm that the machine wasn’t correctly calibrated?

 

[merkon]

Why do you think some guy in his garage gets better results than a professional? “Well.. uh.. because… well I just like TK more”

All of your arguments continue to just be your angry opinions. Please try to back up what you're saying with evidence, as learned in the 5th grade.

Why do I believe his results? Because he showed his results on a testing machine. I've never seen RHK show any testing on the hardness of his knives, just numbers you're supposed to take at face value.

Just because someone works from a garage doesn't mean what they've made isn't accurate or correct. Again, please stop with these bad-faith opinions framed as arguments.

 

[Quiet]

Best Practices Rockwell Hardness Testing - Buehler - Metallography Equipment & Supplies for Sample Preparation

Hardness, as applied to most materials, and in particular metals, is a valuable, revealing, and commonly employed mechanical test that has been in use in

www.buehler.com

"Paramount to accurate and reliable Rockwell hardness results is ensuring that the operators and the methods used are following proper test technique and practice.
Failure to properly prepare and execute a Rockwell hardness test can result in compromised test data or false readings,"

"Daily indirect performance verification of the testing instrument is also important; the scales being used should be verified using standardized test blocks or coupons.
Five total readings should be made in the verification process; the measured values must fall within the tolerance stated on block and the block certificate."

"ASTM recommends annual maintenance and verification of a Rockwell tester and more frequent verification under heavy use or extreme conditions. Verification should be performed by an accredited verifying agency and the report should follow and reference ASTM E18 Rockwell test method."

This can't be right. Some dude with 100 posts in ten years just said it's super easy and anyone can do it. Huh.