Rick Hinderer sent Cease and Desist to Youtuber for saying the steel was soft in his knife?

[Quiet]

Other side to the question: Can someone confirm that the machine wasn’t correctly calibrated?

A third question: would that be the kind of thing that you'd, you know, kinda want to have nailed down before calling out an industry leader like RHK?

 

[stabman]

Yes? Aka, calibrate your machine using the calibrated blocks. Make sure you check it daily before use. If you use it a lot, get it maintained annually. None of this is complicated.

When I worked in tool and die, I used height gauges.
It was pretty simple. I used calibration blocks, etc.

My readings counted for doing the work I had to, but would not count at all for quality control.

The quality control guy? Measuring was ALL he did, all day every day.
The height gauges in there were calibrated and tested far more rigorously.
They were never used by anyone outside the quality control department.

The testing blocks cost more.
The surface plates were more precise, and cost way more.
When it was no longer quite precise enough for that level of trusted precision, it might get moved to the shop floor.

The quality control department was authorized to make decisions and proclamations about what made the grade, not any of us, even though much of the measurements were things "simple" enough for us to do.

But yeah, some private guy with a tester...I'll trust him because it's "simple"?

Hell no.

 

[Blues]

The one great thing about a jury pool made up of folks from BF...the attorneys wouldn't have to waste many of their peremptory challenges.

 

[Tuna]

2. I do not care about .2 Rockwell points. At all. My argument was that M390/20CV/204P are high wear resistance steel variants best run harder if used at all. I said 59 HRC M390 (the lower end of Hinderer's target range) is does not perform satisfactorily for me. 61 HRC (the higher end) I find personally acceptable, though I prefer higher in a high performance cutting tool. Keep in mind 59-61 is a very wide range.

Why obtain all these Hinderer knives if, based on the manufacturer's specs, 2/3 of them will be out side of your personally acceptable HRC?

 

[merkon]

When I worked in tool and die, I used height gauges.
It was pretty simple. I used calibration blocks, etc.

My readings counted for doing the work I had to, but would not count at all for quality control.

The quality control guy? Measuring was ALL he did, all day every day.
The height gauges in there were calibrated and tested far more rigorously.
They were never used by anyone outside the quality control department.

The testing blocks cost more.
The surface plates were more precise, and cost way more.
When it was no longer quite precise enough for that level of trusted precision, it might get moved to the shop floor.

The quality control department was authorized to make decisions and proclamations about what made the grade, not any of us, even though much of the measurements were things "simple" enough for us to do.

But yeah, some private guy with a tester...I'll trust him because it's "simple"?

Hell no.

So your argument is that in a different environment with different testings had different protocols and therefore TKs stuff is inaccurate. That's called a false equivalency, a common logical fallacy

 

[MolokaiRider]

Assuming everything you're saying is in good faith I very strongly recommend that you refrain from commenting or making any claims concerning this in any public forum until you've consulted a lawyer, including Instagram, YouTube or any other social media platform.

 

[stabman]

So your argument is that in a different environment with different testings had different protocols and therefore TKs stuff is inaccurate. That's called a false equivalency, a common logical fallacy

No it's not.
Qualified personnel are qualified to make such proclamations. Same damn thing.

Or, how about the professional heat treat company I just got my knives treated at (along with previous ones); not any schlub gets to do the hardness testing. The guy or two who is qualified to do so uses that equipment and gets the reading. With three hardness testing dents to show after, by the way.

But I'm sure that won't count for you either, and you'll proclaim (without any qualifications) that I am engaging in another convenient "logical fallacy".

 

[3D Anvil]

At this point, I don't believe anything TK says, because his motives (ie: not getting sued) are now suspect. He released the C&D letter in the hopes that it would turn public opinion against RHK (which it has). He now gets to enjoy the results of that. I don't see the issue.

But the guy who was alerted by his fanboys and who's threatening to sue this small-time knifemaker is beyond reproach? LOL

 

[3D Anvil]

All of your arguments continue to just be your angry opinions. Please try to back up what you're saying with evidence, as learned in the 5th grade.

Why do I believe his results? Because he showed his results on a testing machine. I've never seen RHK show any testing on the hardness of his knives, just numbers you're supposed to take at face value.

Just because someone works from a garage doesn't mean what they've made isn't accurate or correct. Again, please stop with these bad-faith opinions framed as arguments.

Even RHK admit that they don't test *every* knife. They do a random sampling from the batches that they get from Pete's (or Pete does them). Every blade in a batch isn't going to have the same hrc, because oven temps aren't completely uniform.

 

[ferider]

Spyderco runs Paramilitaries at 62 HRC. These knives perform well.

I have both PM2 and PM3 in M390 and they chip, _all_the_time_. Only Spyderco steel worse is Maxamet. But I'm just a simple user, don't do rope or cardboard cutting tests.

Alright, I'm going to clarify a few things. I don't typically hang out in Bladeforums, so I won't be going back and forth with anyone.

Just stop the back and forth online. Remove your RKH related stuff, and next time you go to a bladeshow, bring a bottle of wine for Rick. Life's too short, no ? Just my 2 cents.

 

[merkon]

No it's not.
Qualified personnel are qualified to make such proclamations. Same damn thing.

Or, how about the professional heat treat company I just got my knives treated at (along with previous ones); not any schlub gets to do the hardness testing. The guy or two who is qualified to do so uses that equipment and gets the reading. With three hardness testing dents to show after, by the way.

But I'm sure that won't count for you either, and you'll proclaim (without any qualifications) that I am engaging in another convenient "logical fallacy".

Again, I have done these tests before and calibrated RHC testers before. My only argument is that it's not difficult to do, despite everyone in here who hasn't done these tests claiming that it is so complicated only 3 people on earth can do them. I would find it shocking that a maker who works out of his parents garage and used his own money to buy an RHC tester wouldn't also do his best to train and understand how to use the machine, as well as keep it in spec.

 

[Quiet]

But the guy who was alerted by his fanboys and who's threatening to sue this small-time knifemaker is beyond reproach? LOL

Did I say that? No. Odd for a lawyer to try to make an assumption* like that.


* A polite way of saying that you were putting words in my mouth.

 

[Quiet]

Again, I have done these tests before and calibrated RHC testers before. My only argument is that it's not difficult to do, despite everyone in here who hasn't done these tests claiming that it is so complicated only 3 people on earth can do them. I would find it shocking that a maker who works out of his parents garage and used his own money to buy an RHC tester wouldn't also do his best to train and understand how to use the machine, as well as keep it in spec.

You would find it hard to believe....I see. Whelp, ok then, nothing more to see here!

 

[stabman]

Again, I have done these tests before and calibrated RHC testers before. My only argument is that it's not difficult to do, despite everyone in here who hasn't done these tests claiming that it is so complicated only 3 people on earth can do them. I would find it shocking that a maker who works out of his parents garage and used his own money to buy an RHC tester wouldn't also do his best to train and understand how to use the machine, as well as keep it in spec.

But he is not a credible source of information according to agreed industry standards.

You can totally set yourself up to do readings professionally, but that takes some doing.
Till then, he's some schlub in a garage with a machine, as far as credibility goes.

Getting your own machine to test stuff for yourself? Cool.
Buying the tester because you make knives and want to tell your customers how hard they are, pretty much? Awesome.
Getting one to test things and then make proclamations in public as an authority? Nah.

 

[merkon]

But he is not a credible source of information according to agreed industry standards.

You can totally set yourself up to do readings professionally, but that takes some doing.
Till then, he's some schlub in a garage with a machine, as far as credibility goes.

Getting your own machine to test stuff for yourself? Cool.
Buying the tester because you make knives and want to tell your customers how hard they are, pretty much? Awesome.
Getting one to test things and then make proclamations in public as an authority? Nah.

And the proof he's not using a calibrated machine is where? What are these "agreed industry standards" you're looking for?

A calibrated machine is a calibrated machine. I work with calibrated machines daily. So as long as it's calibrated, it gives accurate results. Doesn't matter if it's in a garage or a machine shop, those results are just as valid either way.

 

[Sharp & Fiery]

I have both PM2 and PM3 in M390 and they chip, _all_the_time_. Only Spyderco steel worse is Maxamet. But I'm just a simple user, don't do rope or cardboard cutting tests.



Just stop the back and forth online. Remove your RKH related stuff, and next time you go to a bladeshow, bring a bottle of wine for Rick. Life's too short, no ? Just my 2 cents.

Crisis averted. I like it.

 

[stabman]

And the proof he's not using a calibrated machine is where? What are these "agreed industry standards" you're looking for?

A calibrated machine is a calibrated machine. I work with calibrated machines daily. So as long as it's calibrated, it gives accurate results. Doesn't matter if it's in a garage or a machine shop, those results are just as valid either way.

Didn't say it isn't calibrated, didn't say it is. It's his machine, not mine. Burden of calibration proof would be on him, same as for any company being challenged on calibration (but they keep records...).
As for industry standards, you are now just being obtuse deliberately for arguments' sake. You know exactly what I'm talking about.

But have fun with that; I'm off to exercise as it's more important to continued health and happiness.
Pretty sure this pointless argument will continue for many days to come.
(It's pointless because we have no stake in it, reputation, financial, or otherwise).

 

[Owen K.]

For anyone who cares, I was wondering who this M merkon guy was who keeps "defending" TK. Turns out he's a long time fan of the TK's podcast and just another shill.

 

[Richard338]

Most of the argument and TK's claims don't need the testing at all. TK says that if all the blades were 61, at the top of the specified range, then that is a poor choice in his opinion. However, every maker has the right to make their own choice given the known properties of the steel. Buyers can read the specs and choose to buy the knife or not. TK goes further in his post here, implying that RH grinds improperly and likely ruins the treatment as received from Peters. This sort of talk would annoy anyone.

 

[Insipid Moniker]

Again, I have done these tests before and calibrated RHC testers before. My only argument is that it's not difficult to do, despite everyone in here who hasn't done these tests claiming that it is so complicated only 3 people on earth can do them. I would find it shocking that a maker who works out of his parents garage and used his own money to buy an RHC tester wouldn't also do his best to train and understand how to use the machine, as well as keep it in spec.

Wait, you find the fact that he's working out of his garage to make his claim more credible rather than less credible?

That's quite a take.